(Model MF) Remodeling the Model M (aka.. the Mara)

[lot_lizard]

If you haven't voted yet on the current poll, and are at least interested in POSSIBLY participating in this phase 1 group buy, please take the time to let me know your preference. These numbers really help me understand what I should be doing since I will be fronting some of this based on your projected responses (it actually matters). Again, my goal is to completely break even (including being out of pocket on my own boards that come out this), but I also don't want to take a beating by making wrong choices. Even if you agree with the current poll results, take the time to vote. Right now, we have a 24% degree of error on 95% confidence, and that is just too low for any real decision on my end when a few thousand dollars are in the air. When we are done with this poll, the next will be a FSSK vs FEXT quantity breakdown. Then I'll have a pretty clear picture what to do. Help is appreciated...

EDIT: this is all completely anonymous btw... Even if there was a way for me to see individual responses, I'm too much of a forum noob to know how at the moment. You have my promise that I would never look even if a way existed (no PM badgering at group buy time)

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[DMA]

Provisions for LEDs under all keys are a good idea. For backlighting if not for nothing else.
This will require keycaps with transclusent inserts to really shine - but even seeing outlines in the dark would be great.

[Techno Trousers]

Hmm. I don't think any light would shine through even translucent caps with these switches, unless there were a way to get the light inside the barrels. We'd need glass barrels or something!

Maybe phase 2? I don't actually need backlighting myself, but as a technology statement it really would be something else, especially with the"floating" design. Actually I think this was brought up earlier. At least the possibility of trying transparent barrel materials later on..

[lot_lizard]

Hmm. I don't think any light would shine through even translucent caps with these switches, unless there were a way to get the light inside the barrels. We'd need glass barrels or something!

Maybe phase 2? I don't actually need backlighting myself, but as a technology statement it really would be something else, especially with the"floating" design. Actually I think this was brought up earlier. At least the possibility of trying transparent barrel materials later on..

Like DMA just pointed out, it would at best (at least with cap options currently available) be a translucent outline. With our colored top plates, it would pop a bit more, but like your conclusion wouldn't actually light up the key unless both the LED made it into the barrel (which wouldn't require top plate changes), and someone decided to double shot these caps at some point. For standard IBM M/F caps, that is probably unlikely. I will add some cutout for the LED to outline the caps using Maxx's approach above. I'll reach out to Phosphorglow (Maxx) to get his thoughts about what the cutout dimensions should be. Appreciate people chewing on it. Seconded my opinion

[DMA]

Hmm. I don't think any light would shine through even translucent caps with these switches, unless there were a way to get the light inside the barrels. We'd need glass barrels or something!

Maybe phase 2?

Drilling extra holes should be nearly free. phosphorglow should know better if it's worth pursuing or not, though - he did something along those lines after all.

Update: to clarify - I mean just the holes, not LEDs. Those who want will be able to mount LEDs there - at least try to do that. Those who don't will not notice anything - the plates will probably be 10 grams lighter, but that's it.

[Techno Trousers]

Have we discussed what type of USB connector will be on the mini xwhatsit controllers? My vote would be to future proof it up front with USB Type C.

[andrewjoy]

Voted ,

If a drop in replacement with everything assembled would we be able to order some flippers in extra spots ? like a spit backspace ? and split + on num pad ?

[lot_lizard]

If a drop in replacement with everything assembled would we be able to order some flippers in extra spots ? like a spit backspace ? and split + on num pad ?

I haven't quite figured out yet what we want to do as far as capturing the orders yet, but the plan is to let you do it however you see fit. There aren't SO many parts and options here that we couldn't be very flexible I wouldn't think.

Have we discussed what type of USB connector will be on the mini xwhatsit controllers? My vote would be to future proof it up front with USB Type C.

Currently it is type-B, and according to the WCass post, is sticking out as far as the original SDL connector on the original controller (ideal). This image should also give you a good idea of how much these guys managed to shrink down the original xWhatsit if you consider this is the M controller form factor (at least for height). They really did exceptional work and opened doors for reducing case designs


The following is Phosphorglow's approach with his custom M USB controller (not ours). The upside to type-B would be the size of the port and it's centering in the opening. Also, he has the nifty little plate to cover the opening (hadn't considered until now). Type-C is certainly a better technology, but a less ideal plug (not as durable). I am sure it could be changed though if we saw fit

[andrewjoy]

I would say go with full sized B, you don't even have to bother to install the little shroud around it. Full sized B has a way way way way .. ( insert many ways) more insertions before failure than any other USB socket . Be it ( uhhh mini b) or even micro b.


Rant time.

Both need to go in the depreciated pile with micro a. Message to all device manufacturers: we have USB c now so stop with the micro and mini b just stop , they are both terrible they have always been terrible , get rid of them.

Oh and if your making a network smart device like a door bell or a wifi AP or a thermostat.... ADD FUCKING PoE YOU CHEAP ASSHOLES!

Oh and car manufacturers stop using shitty 3.5mm jacks for line in use the larger ones and supply an adapter , the small 3.5 mm jacks where never made for this application they will break , use 6.35mm and give us a bag of adapters , that way when they fail we can just plug in a new one , hell give me a pair of XLRs i don't care just stop with the headphone sockets!

And don't even get me started on HDMI.... why , just why when DP is far superior in every way.

And stop putting VGA ports on things without the screw holes next to them its a huge multi pin connecter you fools it needs to be held in.

And stop using flex connectors as board to board interconnects you cheap fucks , use a real board to board connector.

Ok i will stop now

[lot_lizard]

Rant time

You crack me up, and I agree about solid connectors. I would pay the premium (let's be honest... pennies) to have more robust connectors. As much as any reason, I have thick "ape hands" that appreciate not having to thread the eye of a needle to plug in something, let alone the durability.


I know I said I would put the plans out there before messing with the XTant tribute sticker, but I lied. The real reason is I have an email into Phosphorglow to get the ideal cutout for the LED's. If I don't hear back by the end of the day, I will publish the plans for the FSSK assembly regardless.

For the XTant "Tribute Edition" (red top plate with black backplate), I threw this first pass together. It is currently the same sticker profile as the sticker label from Techno Trousers (but that could change), and this one would be vinyl instead of paper (no need to write on). This is using some images and font that WCass was nice enough to send me per my request. Included a picture of the original sticker he sent out as well from a build that Alh84001 had recently done of the XTant. Comments/suggestions very welcome. If someone wanted to take it and modify/improve, PM me for the GIMP file

Initial design to elicit feedback

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EDIT: Final design after feedback

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WCass's original sticker with XTant kit

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[Hypersphere]

I've always liked Escher's tessellations and transformations of reptiles and salamanders in 2D and 3D. I am not sure if these drawings are still under copyright. If not, one of these might be adpated as a stylized rather than realistic image of a lizard (even though I think the drawing below depicts stylized salamanders or newts).

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[seebart]

That's a pretty bad-ass lizard but this is the way to go, the duck could be optional though:

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[lot_lizard]

I've always liked Escher's tessellations and transformations of reptiles and salamanders in 2D and 3D

I like his work. My favorite has always been Heaven and Hell. If I was ever going to get a tattoo on my back, it would be the one

Spoiler:

Is your suggestion in reference to WCass sticker, or the I$/lizard hybrid? WCass's original lizard is actually a Tuatara (he filled me in), and based on his theme of Living Fossils. I liked it because he used in the original sticker with his kit, but was afraid there might be some overlap with my handle (it's completely coincidental). He threw out some other potential images. Let me know if you thought using one of them with the mention on the sticker of 'Living Fossil' with maybe a footnote of the animal would help keep things clear. Or even using a collection of them? Other images he sent below

Spoiler:

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[lot_lizard]

That's a pretty bad-ass lizard but this is the way to go, the duck could be optional though

So the idea is to only have the WCass sticker on the red top plate/black backplate... as a tribute. All the other configurations would only have the sticker from Techno Trousers (which would be included on all). The only other variation will be a limited run (say 10-15 total) of all stainless steel boards. The stainless steel variety would be the only ones with the duck. This is not to make any of them cost more. Just a way to spice up a couple of editions to keep things interesting.


Again, the standard board regardless of color configuration will be just as you mentioned (assembly plate sticker only). This Limited Edition Stainless (with duck etching) and WCass Tribute (red/black with Living Fossil sticker) is just something to make it more interesting of a process (at least for me)

EDIT: Apologize for the confusion. There are several posts you would have to digest to get the full picture. At the time we actually run a group buy, I would make this "edition" fluff very obvious

[pyrelink]

I am all for LED support, assuming it doesn't compromise anything else in the design. I forget who originally posted it, or where, but I would love to put an amber LED on my Caps Lock/Control. I also vote for fullsized USB B. A beefy keyboard deserves a beefy connector.

XTant tribute logo looks good too. What a bad ass lizard.

[lot_lizard]

Thanks again for participating in the Switches/Assembly survey. We are at a 20% margin of error at 95% confidence, but the numbers remained consistent as votes came in. So half of the orders would need switches (barrels/flippers), and of that half, half again (25% of total) would like assembly. ONE MORE POLL for the foreseeable future... PROMISE. I need to be able to communicate to the manufacturer the percentages of FSSK vs FEXT form factors. I need to know the RATIO between the two for a variety of reasons. We will still need to prove the FEXT metal sample I have here, but for now, assume it works well (will be well tested before any GB would think of beginning).

For pricing, assume $150 +/- 25 for the base kit (same as the FSSK). The more numbers I have received back, the more I am feeling like we are under (not over) $150. Again... appreciate the help. This understanding is needed before I have the confidence to proceed.

[Techno Trousers]

Okay, I voted on the last poll. It's so exciting that we're getting close to the GB phase. I'm really curious to see how much demand you get once the word really gets out. Of all the Model F revival projects that have happened recently, I really feel like this (phase 1 and especially phase 2) are going to be THE not-to-miss keyboard group buys of them all.

About the XTant homage logo, I'm not planning on getting that version myself, but I've always loved the coelacanth as the image of a living fossil. It really looks like it shouldn't be living in the modern world.

[Techno Trousers]

Oh, yes, I meant to comment on the follow up to my USB Type C post. I forgot that we were shooting for a flush-fit connector for regular connect/disconnect, so in that case Type B makes sense to me. I'm not one who often detaches keyboard cables, and honestly a lot of the keyboards with detachable connectors are just a pain. I think at least twice my wife has thought her Ducky keyboard was broken, and she'd just managed to jiggle the keyboard-side connector loose. This design should be better, though--no need to flip the keyboard over and check how the cable is routed through a plastic groove and stressing the connector.

I think for my FEXT I'm going to be converting an older 101 terminal board with an RJ-45 connector. So I need to take a look at how that cable exits the case as compared to the SDL models, and possibly take a dremel to the opening so it will work. If I'm lucky, I may be able to really tailor my custom opening to exactly correspond to the Type B jack, even better than the stock SDL opening.

[lot_lizard]

I think for my FEXT I'm going to be converting an older 101 terminal board with an RJ-45 connector. So I need to take a look at how that cable exits the case as compared to the SDL models, and possibly take a dremel to the opening so it will work. If I'm lucky, I may be able to really tailor my custom opening to exactly correspond to the Type B jack, even better than the stock SDL opening.

Let me know how this looks (maybe pics?), I don't have one to test with. Would be good to know

[dokyun]

I'm really curious to see how much demand you get once the word really gets out. Of all the Model F revival projects that have happened recently, I really feel like this (phase 1 and especially phase 2) are going to be THE not-to-miss keyboard group buys of them all.

Ellipse's project had over 200 boards accounted for the last time I looked in there, definitely more by now. Gonna be interesting to see how many of those people still have money to jump onboard for this one. (also maybe buyers remorse?)

[lot_lizard]

I'm really curious to see how much demand you get once the word really gets out. Of all the Model F revival projects that have happened recently, I really feel like this (phase 1 and especially phase 2) are going to be THE not-to-miss keyboard group buys of them all.

Ellipse's project had over 200 boards accounted for the last time I looked in there, definitely more by now. Gonna be interesting to see how many of those people still have money to jump onboard for this one. (also maybe buyers remorse?)

I hope not... Really not my goal (and shouldn't be any else's). I couldn't have more respect for Joe for jumping in with both feet like he did. I can't say I wouldn't have done this anyway (i$'s work was really the catalyst), but seeing Joe take on his initiative certainly help inspire the effort. I for one will be very happy when my F77 replica arrives.

We had a bit of an inside track to this effort from several perspectives. I haven't ever eluded to what I actually do, but there is a reason this is working like it is. Also... Cindy's switch find for us is MASSIVE. It is the one truly difficult part in all of this (creating moving parts), and that need has been eliminated for Phase 1

Hopefully folks (if interested in Phase 1), will take advantage. I have mentioned several times, but this really is a non-profit group buy, and I'm only running it once. We will operate just into the black throughout, and any surplus will be paid forward with shipping discounts on the tail end. But again... We will operate in the black (positive territory) as I'm not going to run some charity for you yahoos (no offence). In the end, the net balance on my end will be zero (even planning to cover my research expenses as I would have paid them for myself if doing this project in darkness).

Enough soap-box speak... AN ACTUAL UPDATE OF NOTE. I received word from Cindy, and it looks like I might be receiving approximately 85 F-model boards within a couple of weeks. This equates to 9.5-10k switches, all clean and processed by myself. Assuming our polling is accurate (should be close) 50% of the new assembly kits need switches, and we would manufacture approximately 200 total boards based on switch availabiltiy. When we do this group buy, I will operate out of DT first (hopefully only), but the group buy won't close until all switches are GONE!!!!. I'm not getting stuck with them, and don't want to go through the effort of offloading via other means. If it becomes obvious we can't fill the demand for the switch supply, I'll open this up on Geekhack... But that's a last resort. I have no doubt that eventually we'll commence, but this group buy won't be date driven (it's "SWITCHES ARE ACCOUNTED FOR" driven). When it comes time to assemble the 50 boards requesting it (based on polling), I will reach out to folks in the Midwest with interest to assist. The ~$20 assembly charge per board (if assembly requested) will account/aid for their travel expenses

At < $200 for SSK and 101-key Model M's to be F enabled with provided (ACTUAL F) switches, entirely manufactured domestically in the US, with a production turn-around of weeks (not months), I would hope we have enough interest to fill 200 board orders... But I could be wrong, and will develop a contingency plan when that arises. I would only be out the money for Cindy's donors (think temporary sunk cost in economic terms), but could likely salvage most of my losses. We just can't wait around on switches if this is to be effective (again... Cindy saves the day).

Hope this paints a clear picture of the steps ahead. I want the process to be very transparent. Sorry for the long post

[Techno Trousers]

The transparency here is fantastic, lizard. I don't think there's such a thing as too much info when it comes to a major project like this. Just so I understand completely, the goal is to sell through all the used switches for phase 1. Then for phase 2, we will be ordering all new parts?

I have at least three types of full size 101 Ms that I'll examine and compare in pictures for you: PC M with SDL, PC M with attached cable, and terminal M with attached cable. I should be able to do that on Friday and upload pics.

[lot_lizard]

Just so I understand completely, the goal is to sell through all the used switches for phase 1. Then for phase 2, we will be ordering all new parts?

Exactly... I think in Phase 2 we are going to really try to experiment significantly over the course of several months to push the limits of the switch design. We don't want to be bound to anything in the legacy approach (though we might come back to it if we fail miserably... I have faith though). I can say that typing on the FSSK like I am right now for the last week has been a dream. I have compared against every F I own (Kishsaver, Bigfoot, XT, AT, and now Unsaver), and I can say the experience is identical with a layout I FLY on. I am going to visit with a local foam fabricator this next week to estimate the costs/ideas of the two tiered (neoprene rubber top layer that extends to separate the plates, and foam lower than just holds the barrels) foam approach. They are a large fabricator that also die-cuts production runs, and want to pick their brain. Between the thicker top plate I am having made (maybe by a week from Friday I'll have), and this enhanced foam model... we should have something special

I have at least three types of full size 101 Ms that I'll examine and compare in pictures for you: PC M with SDL, PC M with attached cable, and terminal M with attached cable. I should be able to do that on Friday and upload pics.

Excellent... we want to head off any issues we might have with USB port sizing conflicts. So far I have tried the SSK plates in 4 different outer shells, and the fit is excellent. But until we fabricate the controller... we are a little in the dark there (designs seem good on paper though). We'll have some mocked up after the cable pitch changes to the PCB and controller designs

[Techno Trousers]

Having some specialty foam in there would be great. I'm curious to hear how they think the modern foam/neoprene materials will hold up long term in that metal sandwich. My experience with that 80s stuff is that it was just awful--it probably lost its flexibility and began deteriorating within the first few years after assembly. Some are worse than others, though, so either they changed materials at one point, or there were environmental and storage factors at play.

[lot_lizard]

As promised, here are the DXF files from the version of the top plate and bottom plate I am currently typing from. I have made a couple of tweaks since that are being fabricated in stainless steel. The two plates should be available one week from Friday... 10 days from now since they are backed up for short run work like this. It will be number 1/15 in the Limited Edition line, and will try the stainless laser etching process on to test results. It will be the first official production board.

The alterations in the future design (not the one posted below) are as follows:

• Rounded the corners of the top plate to match the rounded edges of the bottom plate
• Moved the function row down .5mm
• Added tension screws between the function and number row, as well as one between the cursor and command keys (that void on the right in row 3)
• In the Model M top shell, there are several extrusions that rest on the top plate to brace the top shell in weaker points. For the thinner top plate, it is not an issue. But if we increase the thickness of the top plate, we are going to put stress on the shell. I am attempting to keep anyone from filing down these extrusions (if you take your top outer shell off, and flip it over, you will notice 6 of them). I have added cuts into the top plate to account for these
• EDIT: One additional change I forgot to mention. The previous M used the two pegs as the at the top of the bottom outer shell to hold the assembly in place. This is a weak design because if both two little pegs break, the whole inner assembly slides to the front of the bottom outer shell, which puts the keys out of alignment (if you have received one in the mail with broken pegs, you know the feeling... it's a loose mess). We instead have made the point of pressure across all the tabs at the front of the lower outer shell, and widen the two holes that pass over pegs so the back is floating. The side to side alignment is held in place by the addition of the assembly plate spacers. Its a much stronger approach all-around

If someone would like to see the OpenSCAD files in the meantime (HAL), PM me. I will share them as well publicly after the stainless steel version updates are proven. They should be the final adjustments for Phase 1

[lot_lizard]

Having some specialty foam in there would be great. I'm curious to hear how they think the modern foam/neoprene materials will hold up long term in that metal sandwich. My experience with that 80s stuff is that it was just awful--it probably lost its flexibility and began deteriorating within the first few years after assembly. Some are worse than others, though, so either they changed materials at one point, or there were environmental and storage factors at play.

The top layer I am going to have made into more a rubber material that both specializes in deadening sound (vs. using the lizard skin spray on), and has a longer shelf life. I threw out neoprene rubber in the previous post, but it only has a 15-20 shelf life. It will likely be some silicon hybrid instead ("ageless"). The bottom layer of the foam (part bracing the barrels) will likely be something more like traditional foam, but will aim for a compound that holds up better. Foams have come a long way in 30 years, but they know WAY more than me. I will carry your comments forward as I share the same

[lot_lizard]

Was bored on the plane last night and threw this together. Just an optional sticker that wouldn't be tied to anything particular, but something you could grab to dress things up a bit if wanted. It's a tribute sticker to Soarer, xWhatsit (Tom Wong-Cornall), Hasu, WCass, and I$ as projects/activities that have had significant impact on this project ever taking place. Still needs polishing (font changes, etc), but the general idea. if I'm missing someone let me know

EDIT: Also went back and cleaned up the XTant Tribute Badge to avoid confusion. The update was added to the previous post with the original to show the difference

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[andrewjoy]

I like it , but it would be cool if it has more of a pixilated dot matrix look.


EDIT

Very quick and dirty filter but to get an idea

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[lot_lizard]

I like it , but it would be cool if it has more of a pixilated dot matrix look.

That's an interesting idea. I'll try that this evening. Maybe add a faint circuit board pattern to the whitespace on the left as well? Something to make it yell a little less would be nice and give better depth


EDIT: Haven't played with the dot matrix pattern on the images yet, but over lunch added the circuit board to the white background, and your dot matrix idea gave me a better direction for the junk font before. Getting more retro

EDIT the EDIT: Changed the font again to something more "comforting" > happy.me
It seems fitting here...

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[Techno Trousers]

Oh, man, that picture of Soarer's avatar makes me sad. If it weren't for him and fohat, I never would have tried my first Model F. I just hope he's offline for some reason, but otherwise okay.