(Model MF) Remodeling the Model M (aka.. the Mara)

[lot_lizard]

Oh, man, that picture of Soarer's avatar makes me sad. If it weren't for him and fohat, I never would have tried my first Model F. I just hope he's offline for some reason, but otherwise okay.

Exactly... if you really ever look at all the code he put together, especially given that nothing like it existed in front of him, you would really grasp how brilliant he is. His absence makes me fear the worst, and I would like to show a sign of appreciation.


I am attaching another sticker I played with on the plane, and cleaned up this evening. The idea is to pay homage to the site itself. This is a "high school year book" concept of DT Club Members, with the members that have made the most posts centered, and less as you move outwards. Everyone in the picture is what really makes this site what it is. If anyone sees their avatar and takes offence, please PM me and I will substitute you with the next in line. The size of aol this stickers this far (Techno Trousers label) would be 4"x2". Only the Limied Edition etching would be a different size

deskthorityTribute.png (113.23 KiB) Viewed 5974 times

I am done playing around with stickers and emblems (I have had down time while waiting on parts, etc). Just something to make the project a little more fun with optional items that pay respect to our "elders" (even though some are our "youngers"). If anyone has other ideas, PM me... but otherwise I am done in the sticker/emblem space I think

[andrewjoy]

EDIT the EDIT: Changed the font again to something more "comforting" > happy.me
It seems fitting here...

giantsTribute.png

I love it , still would like to see a retro printing filter from someone who is not shit at the G.I.M.P like i am

[lot_lizard]

I love it , still would like to see a retro printing filter from someone who is not shit at the G.I.M.P like i am

Thinking of something closer to this?

Spoiler:

giantsTribute.png (195.27 KiB) Viewed 5933 times

The effect would be applied to Soarer and portions of the xWhatsit chip. If we were going to do Hasu, I would probably only hit his "desktop" since his little artwork is already that way. The XTant clip gets tough to do much with before you start scratching your head at what you are looking at (we'll have to chew on that one).

Also, I have one other I wanted to add to the right of XTant, but can't for the life of me find it... Can someone point me to the thread where Phosphorglow's cardboard "stand" (jig) for holding the M barrel frame while bolt modding is? He deserves to be there, and evidently my search skills are lacking today. I know he posted something at one point showing his original cardboard one, and new plastic one where he is standing on it. Maybe it's on Geekhick (I haven't checked there yet)?

EDIT: you will need to click on the image to view it full sized. The site compresses the photo a bit, and that does odd things to pixilation.

[chzel]

Also, I have one other I wanted to add to the right of XTant, but can't for the life of me find it... Can someone point me to the thread where Phosphorglow's cardboard "stand" (jig) for holding the M barrel frame while bolt modding is? He deserves to be there, and evidently my search skills are lacking today.

post295330.html#p295330

[lot_lizard]

Also, I have one other I wanted to add to the right of XTant, but can't for the life of me find it... Can someone point me to the thread where Phosphorglow's cardboard "stand" (jig) for holding the M barrel frame while bolt modding is? He deserves to be there, and evidently my search skills are lacking today.

post295330.html#p295330

Excellent, thank you. I swear I searched his posts for "jig", but obviously not . If he had nicer socks on that day, I would use this pic. Might still yet

EDIT: I do appreciate his toes holding on for dear life like an eagle that just snagged a fish

[andrewjoy]

EDIT: I do appreciate his toes holding on for dear life like an eagle that just snagged a fish

For putting model f plants in place i usually use both hands and the overhang of my massive belly !

[lot_lizard]

Added the distoration to Hasu's background, added Phosphorglow''s madness, and played with the spacing. It's a tad busy and chaotic, but that actually sums up the frantic efforts nicely. These projects are poster children for OCD. Appreciate the suggestions @andrewjoy.

Keep in mind with all of these stickers, they are going to appear much larger on the screen than they will in reality (currently planned at 4x2 inches, but I suspect they could be even smaller after printing some samples). All would be HD vinyl (pricing there is cheap). Added all three "finals" below to keep things a little organized, and if we do make updates, I will keep them in this post to avoid bombing the thread anymore with sticker pics.

giantsTribute.png (207.03 KiB) Viewed 5775 times

[andrewjoy]

Like it!

The idea was originally to make it look like it was printed on an old printer, i mean i don't see people typesetting a label so it would more than likely be dot matrix, don't forget in the 80s laser printers where still in there infancy, it would not be until the early 90s and the mighty HP LaserJet 4L made laser printing cheap for the masses ( they should never have stopped making the 4L that thing was a beast, the 400 series is still decent but just not the same) .

It does not HAVE to have the dot matrix printer effect but it should look like it was done on an old printer.

EDIT

if you get a moment could you add the filter to the FXT see what it looks like ? It sticks out a bit

[lot_lizard]

EDIT

if you get a moment could you add the filter to the FXT see what it looks like ? It sticks out a bit

Updated the previous image. The change is very subtle, but dropped it's "look at me" by around 10%. Anything more, and you really loose what it even is. Thanks again for thoughts...

[lot_lizard]

Status update...

Cindy had 20 Model F keyboards in possession that she has sent me. They are scheduled to arrive Thursday (tomorrow). The other ~65 keyboards she found are being shipped tomorrow directly to me via palette freight. The first shipment of 20 contains the following:

• 3 x XT
• 3 x Bigfoot
• 10 x 3178 (Blue switch)
• 4 x F122

The second shipment of 65 is said to contain mostly F122's (which is golden for switch counts). I will be sure and take some nice pictures throughout as it will definitely be a unique sight. I will do a bulk tear down, barrel/flipper removal, and reassembly. Then we will clean all of the barrels and flippers in bulk. The barrels and flipper paddles (springs removed) will get a nice bath, and springs will get a proper chemical cleaning and oil soak. Should be good as new in the end.

The 3178's wont be harvested and cleaned at the same time as the other boards. I will wait and harvest them if/when needed (consider them surplus). If they are not necessary, I would offer them up as part of the orders.

EDIT: I should also point out that these switches will be the only thing I cover and process ahead of time (which trust me is not cheap ). When we do commence a group buy later, all other part orders will be placed after the group buy enrollment ends. We WILL NOT be ordering extras of ANYTHING. The quantities here are already sufficient enough to meet bulk discounts, and I have no interest in handling or storing extras. I will however add extra parts automatically to your order where it makes sense (provide a few extra screws, etc). I just wanted everyone to realize that even though we are inventorying switches now, it is atypical, and won't be doing that for everything else. We just had an opportunity that we will likely not have later, and need to take advantage

[pyrelink]

Awesome news! That is going to be an insane amount of switches. I wish you luck.

[Techno Trousers]

What a great project. Lizard, you're going above and beyond what I was planning to do with my own donor switches! Please let us know what type of cleaner and oil you'll be using for that "spring cleaning." I don't have experience in restoring springs.

[lot_lizard]

That is going to be an insane amount of switches. I wish you luck.

It will be nuts for a few days, and I will take your luck . I have dreamed up a little jig that will keep say 10 flipper/springs in alignment and provide consistent pressure across all the flippers. Shouldn't take long to throw together, and will save time in the end (though it will need to be reloaded manually after each press). Otherwise I wouldn't even mess with idea of cleaning the flippers.

Please let us know what type of cleaner and oil you'll be using for that "spring cleaning." I don't have experience in restoring springs.

Clean springs makes a massive difference. If you have ever used an unlubed rusty spring on anything, they are very "creaky" as they rub on surfaces (like the inside of our keystems).


Springs are very similar to any other metal, but would have considerably more surface area by volume, so soaking is really the only way to go. I have a solvent based parts washer with a rust removing additive in my shop that I use for cleaning larger parts. I will load all the springs in a large wire basket, set them in to soak for a day, and turn the pump on to agitate the solvent. But that solvent is nasty stuff (think wear gloves or get poison leaching), and you could use plenty of household cleaners with similar success (these aren't THAT dirty after all). Something like CLR, Simple Green, even household white vinegar would work well. Let them soak for a day, agitating a few times over that span, and you will be surprised by the end color of the solution.

For oil, you want something very thin (drains well and dries fast) that clings to metal well... think "watch oil". You just want to put a non-stick lubricating surface back on to keep the springs clean. This is exactly how molten steel is cooled after forming. It's "quenched" in an oil bath. The pores aren't open here like they would be when in liquid form, but the best we've got. I will use a simple mineral oil, but the best solution small scale I think is to just spray them with a Teflon based spray (like Break-Free). Definitely nothing gunky, or remains wet to the touch after "drying".

Sorry for being so wordy...

One last request, with andrewjoy's help today, we made some improvments to the "giants" sticker above. Do you mind let me know if you prefer option A (new from over lunch) or option B?

[pyrelink]

I think I like option B the best. With option A the transparency with the circuit in the background throws me off.

[Techno Trousers]

I like B as well. It just looks a little cleaner overall.

[lot_lizard]

I like B as well. It just looks a little cleaner overall.

I think I like option B the best. With option A the transparency with the circuit in the background throws me off.

Excellent... we shall never speak of option A again . Previous post updated.

EDIT: long story short... This post was too long to ask a simple question, so modified. Should we offer what you would need to floss mod your board as an option for the group buy for those that might be interested?

[Techno Trousers]

Should we offer what you would need to floss mod your board as an option for the group buy?

We're going to have to install our own keycaps in any case, so it wouldn't be difficult for most people to get their own floss and do that mod before final assembly.

What I think could be more valuable if you want to try it, is offer the option to pre-floss just a couple of rarely used keys (F keys on an FSSK, or Scroll lock/Num lock on an FEXT) in each pre-assembled board, or include one piece of floss for the DIYers to do that themselves after assembly. That way everyone could try it out without having to buy a bunch of specialty floss they may not need. If they end up disliking it, it's also easy to remove the floss with tweezers.

I don't think I need it, but fohat swears by it on his F122, so I kind of want to try it out, but not enough to buy the floss. As you can see, I'm conflicted on the subject!

[lot_lizard]

Should we offer what you would need to floss mod your board as an option for the group buy?

I don't think I need it, but fohat swears by it on his F122, so I kind of want to try it out, but not enough to buy the floss. As you can see, I'm conflicted on the subject!

I'll PM Fohat, and see if he doesn't mind taking a peek here. It would be interesting to get the take of someone that prefers it.

[alh84001]

A quick note on de-rusting. I tried using white vinegar on one batch of rusty M springs I got, and the issue I have with it is that while it will remove rust from the spring, the rust would then color the immersed part of the string as it was free to float in vinegar. Well, the same is true of other, larger, stuff as well, but it is much easier to wash/sand it than all the individual small springs. I guess your solvent is a bit better with this.

[lot_lizard]

A quick note on de-rusting. I tried using white vinegar on one batch of rusty M springs I got, and the issue I have with it is that while it will remove rust from the spring, the rust would then color the immersed part of the string as it was free to float in vinegar. Well, the same is true of other, larger, stuff as well, but it is much easier to wash/sand it than all the individual small springs. I guess your solvent is a bit better with this.

Good catch... The agitation of the solution (whatever you use) is key. It does two things: makes sure the chemical eventually makes contact with the entire surface (there a often "micro bubbles"), and it keeps the residue from "settling" on any specific spot. The fact that you had enough rust to have settling issues should speak volumes to others though about how filthy these little devils can get.

[lot_lizard]

The poll for the SSK vs 101-key ratio has been captured (16% margin of error on 95% confidence). The results are the first that have really surprised me, given that there are probably <2% as many SSKs in the wild as compared to full-size M's if you include terminal models. It shows that those most interested will be folks with financial means.

Just a side note, the more the quotes roll in, the more it looks like our actual cost will be less than "worst case" projections of $150. I have only participated in 3-4 group buys myself (2 of which I am still waiting on my purchase to arrive ), and would like some takes on how we handle the enrollment time frame.

When we do commence, we need some sort of deadline to inspire people to not waffle. Those really interested will sign up right away, but a large number of people (those that studied the night before for exams in their youth) will wait until the final days to actually decide. I have said this would be "switch availability" driven vs "date driven", but we need a combination to keep the enrollment window as tight as possible.

I will start the group buy here on DT, run for some period of time (LOOKING FOR SUGGESTIONS as to how long that is), and then post something on Geekhack to get the rest of what we need in orders until the switches are accounted for. Any other tricks people know or think might work to speed up the enrollment process if needed (price goes up "early bird specials", etc.)?

I don't want some open-ended signup debacle (short and sweet as possible), but this unique in that we have an order quota to hit based around switch availability. Also, I have close relationships with some of our manufacturers, and don't want to leave them wondering when the manufacturing can commence.

Thoughts very welcomed. I have ideas, but want to hear suggestions that aren't first tainted by mine

[andrewjoy]

I may have missed it but will this use model M space bars ( with the thick ass wire) or the thinner model F style ones from the F122s ?

[lot_lizard]

I may have missed it but will this use model M space bars ( with the thick ass wire) or the thinner model F style ones from the F122s ?

It would use both the case and keys from your Model M.


If have a desire for some configuration that would support the F spacebar (maybe you like the caps better), we could probably dream up something. Maybe the opposite of what WCass originally did get F keyboards to use M spacebars? The spacebar wire stabilizers (the clips) with our approach will be the M variety though.

[andrewjoy]

Oh no its not an issue , i was just wondering

[fohat]

If have a desire for some configuration that would support the F spacebar (maybe you like the caps better), we could probably dream up something. Maybe the opposite of what WCass originally did get F keyboards to use M spacebars? The spacebar wire stabilizers (the clips) with our approach will be the M variety though.

For people who have not worked with both, the M wires are both larger in diameter and larger overall. The F wire fits in a small tab and moves a smaller distance well forward of the barrel stems, while the M wire takes a larger tab with wider mouth, and sits farther back. When depressed, the M wires almost touch the base of the barrels.

Some people think that the F space bar has a lighter feel, but the difference is minor and M space bars are much more plentiful and probably stronger.

[pyrelink]

Do some research on 7Bits patented "Rolling Deadline", and the Round 5 group buy thread. That would probably be the fastest and most efficient way of selling all the boards.

In all seriousness, I am a really big fan of how Seebart ran the Model M Badge group buy, with the frequent updates and very transparent finances. But you have already proven yourself on that front.

Since I am guessing that you are negotiating a fixed price for a certain amount of boards, and we aren't operating on an MOQ system, you don't have the incentive of lower prices at further tiers, and it's harder to give upfront price discounts on early bird orders. I would like to think that this will be a very popular group buy, especially at lower than $150, I would imagine when opened up to GeekHack that you will get all your switches sold.

I know the last few group buys I participated in, for the first 50 or so orders, would be put into a lottery for some artisan made keycaps or other perks to be thrown in with their order. Only problem is that I feel like the people already interested in the project will make up the majority of those orders, and it's going to be the tail end of the orders that are going to be hard to get.

I would start with all of the "editions" you have been making logos for. Have different tiers of editions based on when you order, with the more limited ones at the start. I think introducing it to GeekHack should bring in another good batch of orders at the end.

I however am the furthest from a group buy master, so I am sure there are some more experienced people to give some insight on what works and what doesn't.

[lot_lizard]

Do some research on 7Bits patented "Rolling Deadline", and the Round 5 group buy thread. That would probably be the fastest and most efficient way of selling all the boards.

Cracks me up... correct... the opposite of that nightmare I hope. I admire him for doing it, but I would cry myself to sleep at night operating that way.

I however am the furthest from a group buy master, so I am sure there are some more experienced people to give some insight on what works and what doesn't.

You had some good ideas. Appreciate. This is a weird animal because we have a limited commodity in switches that also need to go (I don't want them, and don't want to be a supply house for them going forward, but happy to add extras to any orders you have if you have a need to fill other boards).


On the theme of nightmares. Having to post on GH is something I would dread as well. Having to reintroduce all of this since it is so different would be a chore for just a few last orders. Hopefully we can wrap up here without making those of you that really care about it wait too long for the order requirements to be met. But when we meet it, I'll hit a giant GO button that gets all of these things produced at the same time (no need for staging). I think the Marketplace is where are majority of people really hover, and we will figure out a way to make the thread simple/sweet/obvious what this is. For many, the Marketplace GB thread could be the first time seeing any of this. Thanks again for the thoughts

EDIT: The only thing I will do myself (other than assembling the whole kit if ordered that way) would be the bending of the PCB. It could be a daunting process for most, and I have a way where I'll be able to do several at once in bulk. Plus from a shipping perspective, it will be very safe for the PCB to be sandwiched between the plates.

[scottc]

Using 7bit's patented approach only ensures pissed off buyers. The only way he doesn't lose customers is by ignoring their messages and refund requests... Yet somehow it works out well for him. I guess because he's the only source for some of his stuff.

[elecplus]

Well, this is a first! UPS did not come get the pkgs for lot_lizard. I called, and they apologized, said they would connect me to international shipping. Why international, I asked. Because they are going to MN, said the operator

[Rimrul]

Do some research on 7Bits patented "Rolling Deadline", and the Round 5 group buy thread. That would probably be the fastest and most efficient way of selling all the boards.

Cracks me up... correct... the opposite of that nightmare I hope. I admire him for doing it, but I would cry myself to sleep at night operating that way.

But you'd have bot_lizard to cheer you up.

The only thing I can think of that I can think of to combine selling all switches and a deadline is

The group buy closes once we reach $deadline or run out of switches. Whichever happens first.

This doesn't seem to be what you had in mind, though.