(Model MF) Remodeling the Model M (aka.. the Mara)

andrewjoy · 20 Jul 2016, 18:12

Sorry , slightly off topic question now this is getting closer.

Do unicomp sell only the case , i was sure they did but not longer see it on the website.

fohat · 20 Jul 2016, 18:36

andrewjoy wrote: ↑Sorry , slightly off topic question now this is getting closer.

Do unicomp sell only the case , i was sure they did but not longer see it on the website.

They sell a lot of stuff that is not specifically listed for sale. You need to ask the question directly.

lot_lizard · 20 Jul 2016, 18:48

Techno Trousers wrote: ↑So if the floating PEM fasteners are used in the middle, would they be pressed into the bottom of the top plate, so the screw is caught coming up from below? Our do they need to be at the hole where the screw enters?

They would be fastened to the top of the top plate. So in the animation, picture the top plate is turned upside down. They would have holes precut at the same time our plate is jetted. The cost isn't too much more because you are eliminating the task of tapping the holes (less labor to press these in).

pyrelink · 20 Jul 2016, 18:56

andrewjoy wrote: ↑Sorry , slightly off topic question now this is getting closer.

Do unicomp sell only the case , i was sure they did but not longer see it on the website.

I have bought membrane sheets, and SSK barrel plates from them before, but I had to find the part number and send them an email to order them. If they don't list the case on the site, I am sure you could probably order them this way.

elecplus · 20 Jul 2016, 19:20

I have been testing Ms and Fs all morning, and I have a question. The caps on the Fs require that the spring be placed just so in order to register the key press. If you are using M caps, how is this going to work? Even the 1-part M caps have the spring retainer nub in a different spot. Or I am I wrong again?

Techno Trousers · 20 Jul 2016, 19:46

I have a lot of M caps on my F-122, including Unicomp versions, and they work fine. I've never investigated the retaining mechanism in detail, though.

dokyun · 20 Jul 2016, 19:55

andrewjoy wrote: ↑Sorry , slightly off topic question now this is getting closer.

Do unicomp sell only the case , i was sure they did but not longer see it on the website.

Not that there's a picture, but I'm pretty sure this is it:

http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CVSET

fohat · 20 Jul 2016, 20:35

elecplus wrote: ↑I have been testing Ms and Fs all morning, and I have a question. The caps on the Fs require that the spring be placed just so in order to register the key press. If you are using M caps, how is this going to work? Even the 1-part M caps have the spring retainer nub in a different spot. Or I am I wrong again?

I think that the "slot" at the back of the stem is longer in the later ones, but I have always used them interchangeably.

Some boards just seem to be a lot more finicky than others in seating the stems.

lot_lizard · 20 Jul 2016, 23:20

Deleted my last post since Fohat and Techno covered, and mine provided little extra value.

The PEM fasteners are a no go, since they would be too labor extensive to do one fastener at a time. Ideally they do the entire sheet at once, and press them all with the series of anvils. What kills us is that the plates need the radial bend afterwards, and that just won't fly. Plan on them potentially in the phase 2 approach. We will instead proceed with the tapped holes with optional nuts to tightly secure (screw / bolt hybrid). Should work nicely

Techno Trousers · 20 Jul 2016, 23:40

dokyun wrote:
andrewjoy wrote: ↑Sorry , slightly off topic question now this is getting closer.

Do unicomp sell only the case , i was sure they did but not longer see it on the website.
Not that there's a picture, but I'm pretty sure this is it:

http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CVSET

I'd recommend caution with this approach. I took a quick look at their "classic 101" keyboard, and it appears the cable exits from a different location than the original IBM/Lexmark cases. I think it's probable that there are internal differences in that "cover" that would keep the FEXT drop-in from fitting correctly. If anyone reading this happens to have both an original case and the Unicomp variant, I'd love to see some comparison photos of the interior.

As far as the FSSK, they only list an 84-key barrel frame, but I thought that they had sold out of those a few years back anyway.

emdude · 20 Jul 2016, 23:47

Unicomp's Classic 101 should be using the 42H1292 case molds so anyone who has that particular Model M can probably use that to check.

Techno Trousers wrote: ↑ As far as the FSSK, they only list an 84-key barrel frame, but I thought that they had sold out of those a few years back anyway.

I'm curious about this too, maybe I'll shoot Unicomp an e-mail. Never mind, I misunderstood and thought you were referring the case. I don't think it was too long ago that Murium picked up some SSK barrel frames for the Unicomp GB, so they might still have some left.

fohat · 21 Jul 2016, 00:28

emdude wrote: ↑
I don't think it was too long ago that Murium picked up some SSK barrel frames for the Unicomp GB, so they might still have some left.

Barrel frames are almost irrelevant. You can cut the numpad off a full-size and it is exactly the same.

emdude · 21 Jul 2016, 00:31

Not everyone may want to go through the trouble of doing so.

Although some work may be unavoidable if these barrel frames are ones with drainage channels. I don't think they'll fit into older Model Ms without first chopping off the outlets on the bottom.

EDIT: Okay, now that I think about it some more, I realize people who are getting these barrel frames/plates are of course doing so with the intention of bolt modding their Model M (requiring use of manual tools), so I concede that some might just save themselves the money of buying a new SSK barrel plate and use a full-size one instead. I feel it's a bit of messy solution though, oh well.

Techno Trousers · 21 Jul 2016, 00:57

Luckily we won't have to worry about barrel frames ever again after lizard's group buy!

fohat · 21 Jul 2016, 01:44

Techno Trousers wrote: ↑
Luckily we won't have to worry about barrel frames ever again after lizard's group buy!

The SSK problem has always ever been cases, and if Phase 2 come through with metal ones - hallelujah!

Techno Trousers · 21 Jul 2016, 01:51

fohat wrote:
Techno Trousers wrote: ↑
Luckily we won't have to worry about barrel frames ever again after lizard's group buy!
The SSK problem has always ever been cases, and if Phase 2 come through with metal ones - hallelujah!

Absolutely!! It's still early days, but I'm hoping for two options in phase 2: a minimalist, no frills compact metal case something like ellipse's, and the full-on "art statement" edition with the "floating" case. I'd get at least one of each of those.

andrewjoy · 21 Jul 2016, 10:36

elecplus wrote: ↑I have been testing Ms and Fs all morning, and I have a question. The caps on the Fs require that the spring be placed just so in order to register the key press. If you are using M caps, how is this going to work? Even the 1-part M caps have the spring retainer nub in a different spot. Or I am I wrong again?

The reason for this is more to do with the condition of the foam and or spring on the F than the cap itself . If the spring is in poor condition or its not held properly by the foam it wont sit right under the cap and it wont buckle correctly.

A good tip to get around this is to tip the board backwards a bit ( with the spacebar facing you) , this lines the springs up better. Another way if its almost sort of clicking is to just whack hell out of the switch until it works ( user discretion is advised), but you risk damage to the flipper and or spring and or cap and or board if you do this.

In my personal experience Ms don't have this problem unless they are in need of a bolt mod or they are cheap shit lexmark made ones

shreebles · 21 Jul 2016, 12:59

andrewjoy wrote: ↑In my personal experience Ms don't have this problem unless they are in need of a bolt mod or they are cheap shit lexmark made ones

I'll have you know my Lexmark SSK is in better condition than any of the IBM-made boards that passed through my hands.

fohat · 21 Jul 2016, 13:58

I have probably had more difficulty seating key stems on Model Ms than Model Fs.

And sometimes it works to tilt them forward rather than back, it is always different.

lot_lizard · 21 Jul 2016, 16:05

I spoke with Unicomp this morning about reproducing the SSK outer shells. There is a misconception that they produced them originally, and stopped. When they bought the patents and tooling, the SSK shell molds never made it to them. The SSK shells that they did have to sell a while back were IBM spares that came as part of their acquisition.

I explained what we were trying to do, and was curious if we had a large enough volume of orders for that case profile, would they be willing to finally produce them. He informed me that they are actually working on producing a new mold for the SSK form factor already, and has a tentative hope that it would be available in the fall. When asked for a confidence rating of both the fact that it would ever actually happen, and of the timing... he was very hesitant (so take all of this with a grain of salt). Also, I have no idea how close to the original design it would actually be, so can't say it's usefulness to us.

But, it does show that they are actively pursuing the idea at minimum.

shreebles · 21 Jul 2016, 16:39

Well, I think "actively" is too strong a word

https://www.facebook.com/PCKeyboard/pos ... 06335076:0

pyrelink · 21 Jul 2016, 16:41

How many years has that Unicomp "SSK" been "coming soon"? I wouldn't put even my spoiled eggs in the Unicomp Basket.

elecplus · 21 Jul 2016, 18:03

37L0888 is a black TLK rubber dome with trackpoint. Would that work for this project for a case? 90+ available.

Techno Trousers · 21 Jul 2016, 18:17

shreebles wrote:Well, I think "actively" is too strong a word

https://www.facebook.com/PCKeyboard/pos ... 06335076:0

19 months overdue, and counting. I guess it doesn't matter anyway, since that case would obviously not be drop in compatible with the original SSK.

Techno Trousers · 21 Jul 2016, 18:21

elecplus wrote:37L0888 is a black TLK rubber dome with trackpoint. Would that work for this project for a case? 90+ available.

No, that won't work either. You can see in the picture that it's smaller, and designed for a flat membrane assembly inside.

emdude · 21 Jul 2016, 18:22

shreebles wrote: ↑Well, I think "actively" is too strong a word

https://www.facebook.com/PCKeyboard/pos ... 06335076:0

One day..

Spoiler:

Hypersphere · 21 Jul 2016, 18:58

shreebles wrote: ↑Well, I think "actively" is too strong a word

https://www.facebook.com/PCKeyboard/pos ... 06335076:0

It will be interesting to see if they turn the renders into reality.

Even if they do, I do not like the design shown on the FB page at all. My preference is either TKL or 60% -- I have yet to find an in-between design that I like.

Techno Trousers · 21 Jul 2016, 23:59

Do you guys know that human memory is extremely unreliable?

Anyway, I pulled caps off my 1390131 from April 1986. I would have sworn in court that all the stabilized caps used wires, but no! The only wire stabilized ones are the two vertical keys on the keypad. And like we heard about the ISO enter, the vertical wire stabilizers are to the right of those keys, rather than to the left as on my F122s.

I wish I had a picture of my face when I pulled off that right shift! My only explanation is that I must have convoluted the 1390131 with the F122s in my mind--it's been about five years since I last took it apart. Crazy stuff.

Techno Trousers · 22 Jul 2016, 02:07

Just for fun, the photo below is lifted from snuci's great photo thread on the Chyron Duet keyboard.

any chance we could get a clear rainbow ribbon cable like the one connecting the PCBs for our 30-pin connector cables? That's serious style!

lot_lizard · 22 Jul 2016, 17:45

I requested a sample of IDSS-30-D-04.00 from Samtech a couple of days ago. You can use the following catalog sheet to decipher what all those codes mean, but it should work well for us if we refactor the PCB to match the controller's new pitch of .1 inch, and we install header pins on each end. This is assuming the pins won't be stacked (single row). Coincidentally, it is the rainbow color you mentioned

http://suddendocs.samtec.com/catalog_english/idss.pdf