(Model MF) Remodeling the Model M (aka.. the Mara)

[Colnor]

I'll take one with overlay. Thanks

[seebart]

EDIT: I noticed we mentioned earlier about "missing out" on the WCass/Seebart badge. For sure we are going to have another run of those with Phase 1 btw (both for SSK and full size ovals).

I think wobbled has like 90 indy badges left from his repeat order.

[lot_lizard]

I've had a few PM's from people I consider very bright asking about what we are really doing and when. I keep saying I'll update the original posts, but continue to procrastinate (sorry). I'll draw from this post to modify the OPs later, but it's a good time now to recap everything.

Phase 2 is "only god knows what" at this point. Phase 2 is a learning process from everything we are doing in Phase 1 to create something novel (ALL new parts), and there is no timeframe in mind for when that happens. So Cherry adapters, alternative layouts, floating cases, silencing concepts, and any other wild a$$ ideas from along the way I am forgetting... Those are phase 2 brainstorming.

PHASE 1, what we are doing now, is a drop-in replacement for BOTH size profiles of the Model M. The SSK (code name FSSK after I$'s PCB project), and the standard full-size 101-key layout (code name FEXT). Both will be part of the phase 1 group buy. I have a working metal protoype in the SSK layout that I have been using for a couple of weeks. The full size (FEXT) has been created as well, and test fitted, but not fully processed into a working prototype. I had a series of adjustments that I have made to both plan profiles since having the operational METAL SSK. Those changes are currently being produced in stainless steel. When I receive the latest versions of both the SSK and full size back, I believe we will have the polished end goals, and at that time I will test both (SSK and full size). This will account for everything mechanical (top/bottom plates, foam, procuring switches for those who need them, fasteners, labels, powder coating and other finishes, ribbon cable for connecting the PCB and controller, etc). I expect my work on Phase 1 to be completed within a month.

We still need the improvements to the PCB to account for the pitch changes to incorporate a more standard ribbon cable (the new .1 pitch of the xWhatsit that WCass created for us in a profile that is an ideal drop replacement for the Model M controller). I'm not sure when those changes will be ready, but will escalate the assistance if it is too much later than when I wrap up my work.

At that time, we will start a group buy... Likely for one month minimum that is ala-carte style (only order the parts you want). That group buy will be in the marketplace (new thread). I will know in the coming weeks how many switches I have available. Based on polling with a ~11% margin of error, half of the orders will want switches. So I will have fairly hard numbers to negotiate our production total. If after the month on the group buy, we look like we will fall short of our goals, I will open things up to GeekHick so we can fill our quota goals.

There will be many options in the ala-carte, but they will not be related to layouts. There will only be one version of the PCB and plates for each profile (which includes winkeys).

Hope this helps. Sent from my iPhone... Forgive my grammar

[ohaimark]

I can't wait! Will definitely buy one for the Indy case I ordered.

[Hypersphere]

@lot_lizard: Thanks for the clarifying update -- very helpful. Good to know that the original project (FSSK and now FEXT as well) is still on track. When the GB starts, I intend to sign up for at least one drop-in FSSK kit. Thanks again for undertaking this project.

[lot_lizard]

Thanks guys... It's been fun.

For the springs on the flippers. I am going to separate all of the paddles from the springs, and give the springs a nice rust removal cleansing and oil soak. If I feel it makes sense, I might have new springs produced. I received the sample spring from our friend in Tennessee, and they are PERFECT (honestly). If we do go with new springs in stainless steel, the additional cost would be 1-2 dollars a board (aka... free). In the end, we want the most "as new" and consistent experience as possible. Until I oil bath the springs, I am not sure that answer yet. But I did want to give a heads up that it's a possibly

EDIT: I'm about half way through cleaning Cindy's first 20 boards. The foam is a mess, but there is little if any rust. If someone is interested in parts based on the photo earlier, PM me.

[Techno Trousers]

Holy smokes, $1-2 a board for all new springs? Count me in on that one. It makes a lot more sense than me trying to muddle through removing and cleaning my existing springs. I was actually coming here to ask how you remove a spring without damaging it. There is a lot of resistance when i tried to pull one off, and I was worried about messing them up . But if we have new springs as an option, I'll definitely go that route.

Are you discussing the addition of the controller and PCB headers in a separate thread? I'd like to follow that progress too, if possible.

[bocahgundul]

I am really interested on this one cause its a drop in replacement instead of building it myself because I suck on building stuff

[lot_lizard]

Holy smokes, $1-2 a board for all new springs? Count me in on that one. It makes a lot more sense than me trying to muddle through removing and cleaning my existing springs.
...
Are you discussing the addition of the controller and PCB headers in a separate thread? I'd like to follow that progress too, if possible.

Agreed... Springs are literally free in bulk. These would be stainless as well, and I can't perceive a difference (OCD at this point remember). The PCB header alteration is in this thread, but our friend is tied up with "real life" at the moment. The discussions will continue to occur here as we proceed.

I am really interested on this one cause its a drop in replacement instead of building it myself because I suck on building stuff

Total drop in replacement. Unscrew case, pull everything, insert this, go via model F switches. That simple

[wobbled]

EDIT: I noticed we mentioned earlier about "missing out" on the WCass/Seebart badge. For sure we are going to have another run of those with Phase 1 btw (both for SSK and full size ovals).

I think wobbled has like 90 indy badges left from his repeat order.

I have around 75 ish left now, I originally had 100 but 20 of them had some strange imperfections (a small section on the left side of the badge is see through rather than being black) You could probably just paint over it and it wouldn't be noticeable but it's annoying nonetheless.

Anyway I'd be willing to send some of these out to you early next month when I have been paid and aint so skint due to my keyboard purchasing addiction. PM me and let me know if you are at all interested lot_lizard and we can work out postage costs, pricing, etc.

[bocahgundul]

I am really interested on this one cause its a drop in replacement instead of building it myself because I suck on building stuff

Total drop in replacement. Unscrew case, pull everything, insert this, go via model F switches. That simple

HOLY SH*T

YES PLEASE!

[pyrelink]

Agreed... Springs are literally free in bulk. These would be stainless as well

Is the reason for this due to how little raw material is needed for springs, and how efficient modern manufacturing has gotten? Seems insane.

[lot_lizard]

Agreed... Springs are literally free in bulk. These would be stainless as well

Is the reason for this due to how little raw material is needed for springs, and how efficient modern manufacturing has gotten? Seems insane.

I went back and reviewed the quote. I apologize... It's 3-4 dollars a board. The 1-2 was for more of a piano wire material. Still nothing in the scheme is things.

To answer your question though... Yes. They can shell out thousands of these per hour. Given we need ~90 per board, we are WELL within the realm of bulk discount over 50-100+ boards. Bulk is magic in manufacturing. If you can perform very little artistic (human) work, hit the GO button, and rake in a few hundred dollars... You'll take that all day. These machines have down time, and our springs are a perfect example of something with minimal material that nets positive gains for them in minimal amounts of time (the thinner the diameter of a spring, regardless of coil count, the faster each can be produced).

[lot_lizard]

Before I head out for the evening for cocktails, I wanted to ask if anyone had ever seen this... I haven't. In the Cindy haul, there is a Lexmark labeled Bigfoot from the mid-90s. I am sure it is a refurb, but these boards would have been 10+ years old. Just surprised me

[Techno Trousers]

Interesting! I guess Lexmark must have kept a cache of old Model F parts in stock for refurbs. Kind of like how Unicomp has their own refurbishing service for Model Ms.

[Techno Trousers]

I went back and reviewed the quote. I apologize... It's 3-4 dollars a board. The 1-2 was for more of a piano wire material. Still nothing in the scheme is things.

Yes, I totally agree. Even at that price it's well worth it for brand new stainless steel.

[fohat]

Before I head out for the evening for cocktails, I wanted to ask if anyone had ever seen this... I haven't. In the Cindy haul, there is a Lexmark labeled Bigfoot from the mid-90s. I am sure it is a refurb, but these boards would have been 10+ years old. Just surprised me

My Model F Unsaver has a similar label from about that era that says "Model M" even though it isn't.

[lot_lizard]

Before I head out for the evening for cocktails, I wanted to ask if anyone had ever seen this... I haven't. In the Cindy haul, there is a Lexmark labeled Bigfoot from the mid-90s. I am sure it is a refurb, but these boards would have been 10+ years old. Just surprised me

My Model F Unsaver has a similar label from about that era that says "Model M" even though it isn't.

If it is anything like this Bigfoot, it must be one of the nicest Unsavers on the inside imaginable. The foam, plates, and lack of debris was incredible. Jealous if that was the case. My Unsaver needed some love.

[vometia]

Ooh, this is quite an interesting topic that I'd nearly missed: definitely interested in an SSK or two if they're easy enough to adapt to ISO layout.

[shreebles]

Ooh, this is quite an interesting topic that I'd nearly missed: definitely interested in an SSK or two if they're easy enough to adapt to ISO layout.

They should be, being able to open the barrel frame means being able to move flippers and stabilizers around, and even adapt the layout to your preference with a split backspace, split shift or short ISO shift as you desire.

But remember you will need stabilizer inserts from a regular ISO model M, the ISO ones are a bit different, plus keycaps.

[vometia]

They should be, being able to open the barrel frame means being able to move flippers and stabilizers around, and even adapt the layout to your preference with a split backspace, split shift or short ISO shift as you desire.

But remember you will need stabilizer inserts from a regular ISO model M, the ISO ones are a bit different, plus keycaps.

Hopefully I'd be able to use the existing bits as donor parts. And also hopefully without destroying anything in the process, something I'm perhaps more skilled at than I'd prefer.

[shreebles]

The plastic and metal sandwich of a regular Model M or SSK cannot be opened by default, this has do be done during a nut & bolt or screwmod.

But you can take out the stabilizers without opening the whole assembly using two q-tips.

With the new M and SSK assemblys, those will already have screws to open it up so you probably will not break anything.

Plus you will need one extra flipper if you're going full ISO layout since that has one key more than ANSI.

[lot_lizard]

Spoils of war... Finished harvesting barrels from the first part of the Cindy haul. I didn't count, but based on the boards they came out of, and a quick weight test, we are at ~1800 so far. For sure we will be at least 250% of that in the end, but potentially more. So at minimum 4500 (enough for ~50 Model MFs). Given the polling, we would have at least 100 total boards produced so far. Again, that number goes up if Cindy's contact finds more when they inventory another palette they have yet to go through.

Also, go back and review the picture of the boards a few posts back and let me know if parts are interesting. I am already salvaging the solenoids from the 3178 (blue switch) console boards. Actually going to experiment getting them inside our boards, so stay tuned there. I originally intended on sending these out to keep them from the shredder, but most are not in the best shape (switches were great though). The more parts we sell out of them (cheap btw), the cheaper the switches. Right now we are at ~50-55 cents each based on complete guesses as to what the next batch holds. F122's are our best bang for the buck, so hopefully they are the remaining lion's share. Thanks again Cindy

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[Techno Trousers]

That's a great haul! I can't wait to see the complete collection when you're all through with this time consuming process. Thanks again for all the hard work you are putting into this project, lizard!

Sorry if this is a dumb question, since I'm not a metalworker, but would it make sense to save all of the metal cases you're collecting, and melt them down to be cast into new compact metal cases for phase 2? That would seem to have some poetic value by giving phase 2 keyboards a direct connection to the past. But I wouldn't be surprised if that's impractical or way too expensive.

[Techno Trousers]

Ooh, this is quite an interesting topic that I'd nearly missed: definitely interested in an SSK or two if they're easy enough to adapt to ISO layout.

From your response I'm not sure if you already own SSKs or not. Just to be as clear as possible...

For this initial phase of the project, you will probably want to have an ISO SSK (or two) in hand before ordering the assemblies. The idea is that you would get Model F assemblies, then use your existing SSK case(s), keycaps, and stabilizers to complete the build of your refurbished and improved keyboard.

If you have ANSI SSK(s), you'll need to get the ISO enter, short left shift, and extra international key (perhaps from Unicomp). Once you have the correct set of keys it won't be hard to reconfigure the layout as needed--you'll just unscrew the bottom plate, add/remove flippers, screw it back together, then reconfigure stabilizers. Or lot_lizard and other assemblers may be able to set your layout at build time.

If you don't have an SSK at all, you have three options for phase 1:

• Buy an SSK
• Acquire a set of key caps and build your own SSK case (perhaps by cutting down a full-size Model M case?)
• Settle for a full-size FEXT

Barring any of those options, I recommend waiting until phase 2.

[lot_lizard]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, since I'm not a metalworker, but would it make sense to save all of the metal cases you're collecting, and melt them down to be cast into new compact metal cases for phase 2? That would seem to have some poetic value by giving phase 2 keyboards a direct connection to the past. But I wouldn't be surprised if that's impractical or way too expensive.

It would be fun, but we would never have the quantities of steel to have even a tiny portion of the steel mixture be our actual salvaged boards. Scrap metal is smelted down in huge bulk to produce large runs of steel bars and billet, and even then is mixed with "new" alloy to keep the ratios right. If no one wants the metal parts by the time we commence, I will scrap them, but metal prices are very low currently, so it wouldn't help our bottom line much.


Several of the boards are in very good shape, and someone should take them (at least parts of them). If someone would like better pics, PM me. 3 or so were refurbished in the mid 90's, and are in exceptional shape (albeit dirty).

I am keeping the 3178 with the door on top for switch access btw. We should nickname the 3178 board "the platypus". It is definitely a unique/odd little animal. Great badges though.

[hammelgammler]

Before I head out for the evening for cocktails, I wanted to ask if anyone had ever seen this... I haven't. In the Cindy haul, there is a Lexmark labeled Bigfoot from the mid-90s. I am sure it is a refurb, but these boards would have been 10+ years old. Just surprised me

My Model F Unsaver has a similar label from about that era that says "Model M" even though it isn't.

If it is anything like this Bigfoot, it must be one of the nicest Unsavers on the inside imaginable. The foam, plates, and lack of debris was incredible. Jealous if that was the case. My Unsaver needed some love.

I didn't quite opened both Unsavers yet, but one of them seems to be refurbished too, and on a quick look it looked much better on the inside then the "old" unrefurbished Unsaver. You can clearly see they swapped the keycaps too though, as the legends are MUCH less bold then from the other one. I will do a comparison once I have the time for it.

[vometia]

From your response I'm not sure if you already own SSKs or not. Just to be as clear as possible...

Oh, yeah, sorry, should've been more clear: I have a couple of SSKs, both ISO. The one I'm using right now also needs a(nother) thorough clean as it's starting to look a little grubby again, so I'll be practising my dismantling skills or lack thereof before long. :/

[drevyek]

I'd be down for one of those Industrial cases + overlays (was about to place my own order).

Would this be a "buy some of the parts and put it together" style build? For example, I have an XT that I really have fallen out with (the layout isn't the best), so I could harvest some barrels and hammers from that guy. That would mean that for an FSSK, I'd only need a handful of barrels + hammers, or for a fullsized, only about 20 or so.
My costs then would only be in the case, the keys (have 'em), the plate and the PCB?

I would imagine that a number of people would also be in my boat as well (with an F lying around). It would make divvying up that sack of parts a bit easier.

If you don't have an SSK at all, you have three options for phase 1:

• Buy an SSK
• Acquire a set of key caps and build your own SSK case (perhaps by cutting down a full-size Model M case?)
• Settle for a full-size FEXT

Just did #2 with a 1391401, and hooboy, very work intensive without a belt-sander around. Only recommend if you have a lot of time, or a solid workbench.

[lot_lizard]

Would this be a "buy some of the parts and put it together" style build? For example, I have an XT that I really have fallen out with (the layout isn't the best), so I could harvest some barrels and hammers from that guy. That would mean that for an FSSK, I'd only need a handful of barrels + hammers, or for a fullsized, only about 20 or so.
My costs then would only be in the case, the keys (have 'em), the plate and the PCB?

I would imagine that a number of people would also be in my boat as well (with an F lying around). It would make divvying up that sack of parts a bit easier.

Correct. I keep throwing around "ala-carte", but to define... There are many parts that make up this phase 1 project. When we are ready to group buy (1-2 months before the start is a tentative guess), the orders will be based on the number of parts needed individually, with an option of EVERYTHING assembled on your behalf being the end of the spectrum. The only thing we wouldn't include are the cases and keys (but I did pick up 10 industrial 101-key cases as part of the lead above to help). For your XT example, you would need at least one switch (spacebar is not compatible), and the remaing parts. We will try to make it as nimble of a purchase as possible.