(Model MF) Remodeling the Model M (aka.. the Mara)

scottc · 24 Jul 2016, 23:22

I really haven't been paying attention to this project at all... I am so enthusiastic about it, though. I'd be thrilled to have a Model F in a modern, usable layout without spending north of $400. Fantastic work so far to everyone involved!

Techno Trousers · 25 Jul 2016, 01:04

vometia wrote:
Techno Trousers wrote: ↑From your response I'm not sure if you already own SSKs or not. Just to be as clear as possible...
Oh, yeah, sorry, should've been more clear: I have a couple of SSKs, both ISO. The one I'm using right now also needs a(nother) thorough clean as it's starting to look a little grubby again, so I'll be practising my dismantling skills or lack thereof before long. :/

Oh yeah, that should be a piece of cake then. You can take advantage of having the caps off the board--let them soak in warm water with dishwasher detergent for an hour or so, then wash and dry them thoroughly. It's like having a whole new keyboard... Which we all will soon!

Techno Trousers · 25 Jul 2016, 03:04

drevyek wrote:
Techno Trousers wrote: ↑If you don't have an SSK at all, you have three options for phase 1:
Buy an SSK
Acquire a set of key caps and build your own SSK case (perhaps by cutting down a full-size Model M case?)
Settle for a full-size FEXT
Just did #2 with a 1391401, and hooboy, very work intensive without a belt-sander around. Only recommend if you have a lot of time, or a solid workbench.

Ooh, do you have pictures of that process and the final result? It's probably not practical for me to do myself, but I'd love to see that.

drevyek · 25 Jul 2016, 05:18

Techno Trousers wrote: ↑
drevyek wrote:
Techno Trousers wrote: ↑If you don't have an SSK at all, you have three options for phase 1:
Buy an SSK
Acquire a set of key caps and build your own SSK case (perhaps by cutting down a full-size Model M case?)
Settle for a full-size FEXT
Just did #2 with a 1391401, and hooboy, very work intensive without a belt-sander around. Only recommend if you have a lot of time, or a solid workbench.
Ooh, do you have pictures of that process and the final result? It's probably not practical for me to do myself, but I'd love to see that.

I have the end result (which I still need to drill the barrel assembly for, that's tomorrow hopefully, as well as a beige/white plastidip, which I still need to get).

Spoiler:

Basically, I bought a 1390401, opened it up, and stripped out the plastic rivets (basic bolt modding).
I then measured out on the bottom exactly where I needed to cut in order to save the feet, while also saving the internal support structure. I mapped this on to the top, and found where I needed to cut to look as presentable as possible.
The M I actually bought had a hole in the case (where it had been attached to a desk with a lock). So I had to cut around the hole, while still looking pretty. I ended up making a cut on the upper ridge of the M, diagonally, so that I could maximize the surface area for the putty to actually put it together.

Spoiler:

In the top I also tried to save the support ridge to the right the nav cluster, so that it could act, again, as more surface area to be bonded to.

Spoiler:

When I cut everything, I sort of did it all at once, and thought that I should give myself a bunch of breathing room, so that I could sand/file down to the mark. This is a great idea, usually, but man, it took a hell of a lot of sanding and filing to actually get down to the mark. And, when I was there, getting the parts to sit flush was impossible. I ended up just settling with a bit of inaccuracy, for the sake of sanity. I actually ended up sawing it after my initial cut, getting these slivers of case and assembly, just so I wouldn't have to file almost an inch of the rock solid plastic of the M. Built like a tank, it really it.

The putty I used was called called J-B Weld PlasticWeld that I got from Rona (hardware store in Canada). On my first application, I happily cut off a blob, mixed it between my fingers (as the instructions say), and packing it in. On further reading of the label, I jumped directly into the shower- while the instructions say to mix between your fingers, the fine-fine print says that it is not to be gotten on skin, and to avoid inhaling the dust, or getting it in your eyes.
I got a particle mask and a pack of gloves before I did any sanding or doing the top.

I had bought a couple clamps, so that I could get in and fix my XT, so I used those in order to actually hold them together while the putty set. I had 1 2ft, and 2 1ft clamps- the type that looks sort of like a rifle.

When I actually did the puttying, the surface I had was a cardboard box, which I figured would be fine. Mostly, it was, but when I did the bottom, the joint was influenced by the small "flat" feet, for when the feet aren't extended. The issue is that the bond is a bit uneven. I should have used a more narrow surface, so that it would level to the flat of the case, not the feet. Oh well.

Spoiler:

To get the plate on, I had the choice: either drill a hole to slide onto the peg, or do something else. I did something else, as I had nothing to drill with. However, I did have something to cut with! So I cut a notch in the plate at the top so it could slide horizontally into the peg, which I filed down a bit to make the sanding of the metal bit less awful (it still was awful).

Spoiler:

Something that bothered me when I was actually doing the mod is that very few people actually gave measurements. I now know why- it is entirely a bunch of guesswork once doing it. I used a square and ruler, but mostly I eyeballed where the plate would fit, and then cut it. I have below a few shots of what I assume the inside fit is supposed to look like, but I dunno :\

Spoiler:

The whole process has taken about a month, waiting for shipping etc. I just hope that it all works in the end! The top isn't as secure as the bottom is, and I messed up a bit in removing a clip that I thought I needed to. On the lower end of the top, the joint is coming apart, so I most likely will need to re-apply the putty, or use super glue.

Overall, I'm happy. If I were to do it again, which I probably will, I would:
A) Cut closer to my lines, so that I wouldn't need to re-sand/file
B) Order everything and get work-shop access squared away from the get-go
C) Document more reliably- not sure where those photos are...
D) Be more patient with the putty, and actually wait along with it as it sets.
E) Use better tools (belt sander, band saw, better straightedge, etc)

Time will tell. My goal for this board was to make something that i could take into work, but I'm not sure that'll happen. I want to replace the foam mat that comes with the M, as well as add some damping foam on the bottom of the case.
Currently, I use a floss-mod for my daily-driver M (1390131), which kills all the ping, but leaves the click and the tactility.
I hear that the grease mod (a la Soft Touch) works very well, but I don't want to risk getting goop all over the electronics. Round 2 here looks pretty promising though, and I may end up getting an FSSK.

Techno Trousers · 25 Jul 2016, 05:41

Thanks for the detailed writeup! I was mostly interested in the case mod, since that is all that would be needed to, for example, shrink the Unicomp industrial case to size for FSSK internals from round 1 (no plate/membrane/barrel plate mods needed). I'm not going to attempt it myself, since I already have a proper SSK to start with, but some other folks might want to give it a go.

Once we get to round 2, it sounds like it will be more of a traditional keyboard group buy, with everything you need included and possibly pre assembled as well.

drevyek · 25 Jul 2016, 05:51

I figured I might as well make it fully detailed, just to have it out there. If anyone has any questions on how to go about it, totally PM me. Hopefully, I'll have done this again, and be better at it by then.

I am just realizing that I am probably going to need to source a backplate and foam mat for this guy. I'll have a case, pcb, barrels, hammer, and caps, but no backplate or foam. Any ideas of where to source, outside of buying a whole other M? Clickykeyboards might have a few, and Ebay probably has a few busted up M's to nab some parts from on the cheap (though shipping is a bloody pain).

Techno Trousers · 25 Jul 2016, 06:04

As I understand it, the current goal is that all of the following can be provided for round 1:

- top plate that can accommodate either XT or AT style barrels*
- screw-on stabilizer points for wire stabilized caps*
- F barrels (if needed)
- F flippers (if needed)
- New stainless steel springs*
- Dual layer foam, optimized for dampening, stability, and longevity*.
- Pre curved i$ FSSK/FEXT PCB with 30-pin header socket*
- mini xwhatsit controller with 30-pin header socket* and onboard USB-B connector for detachable cables
- 30-pin cable with connectors to make controller installation child's play*
- custom printed SDL port blank, optimized for the controller's USB-B socket*
- Backplate with counter sunk screw points*
- My humble label on the backplate
- Stainless steel screws to hold everything
together*.
- assembly services, if required/desired

*These are lot_lizard inventions/innovations that I am convinced will make these assemblies BETTER than original Model F internals.

Parts the buyer needs at a minimum:

- case
- key caps
- appropriate stabilizers for the key caps you have.

Lizard, if you want to clean this up and make any needed corrections/additions, it might be a good summary for the opening post.

alh84001 · 25 Jul 2016, 09:32

@drevyek I am planning to do the same with one of my cases, and your writeup and pictures will help a lot. Expect bunch of PMs soon

drevyek · 25 Jul 2016, 15:45

alh84001 wrote: ↑@drevyek I am planning to do the same with one of my cases, and your writeup and pictures will help a lot. Expect bunch of PMs soon

Don't hesitate to! Glad to help, however I can.

I will most likely end up redoing the putty job. The bottom's unevenness is causing some problems for the top, I fear. Plus, the bad putty on the top is worth fixing, at least.

lot_lizard · 25 Jul 2016, 21:12

I assume others of you that ordered the Unicomp Industrial cases are starting to get emails about shipment tracking numbers as well, but thought I would mention that my order for 10 (w/ LED overlays) appears to have been processed successfully. As of know, 7 of the 10 are spoken for (see below) at $34.71 per set. This wouldn't have much impact on your overall shipping, and would be sent at the same time as your phase 1 drop-in order.

Seebart
need
giokkk
chzel
Colnor
drevyek
alh84001

On the topic of shipping, I will investigate having one large freight shipment to a Euro proxy that will forward the already packaged user orders on. I think it will save you all a significant amount in the end. The idea would be that he receives the big crate, pulls out a pre-packaged box, slaps on postage, and off the package goes. No sorting parts and orders on that end. Still need to harden semantics like tariffs, etc., but Germany was mentioned as an idea Euro hub for shipping. If others have another take, let me know

giokkk · 25 Jul 2016, 22:03

lot_lizard wrote: ↑I assume others of you that ordered the Unicomp Industrial cases are starting to get emails about shipment tracking numbers as well, but thought I would mention that my order for 10 (w/ LED overlays) appears to have been processed successfully. As of know, 6 of the 10 are spoken for (see below) at $34.71 per set. This wouldn't have much impact on your overall shipping, and would be sent at the same time as your phase 1 drop-in order.
Seebart
need
giokkk
chzel

Colnor
drevyek
On the topic of shipping, I will investigate having one large freight shipment to a Euro proxy that will forward the already packaged user orders on. I think it will save you all a significant amount in the end. The idea would be that he receives the big crate, pulls out a pre-packaged box, slaps on postage, and off the package goes. No sorting parts and orders on that end. Still need to harden semantics like tariffs, etc., but Germany was mentioned as an idea Euro hub for shipping. If others have another take, let me know

Thank you lot_lizard, you had success!!

I agree with your idea, Germany is Central Europe and for sure the best Euro hub for shipping in all Europe.

alh84001 · 25 Jul 2016, 22:53

lot_lizard wrote: ↑As of know, 6 of the 10 are spoken for (see below) at $34.71 per set.

If there are still some left, put me down for one as well. Or if there's a GB thread point me there

lot_lizard · 25 Jul 2016, 23:43

alh84001 wrote: ↑If there are still some left, put me down for one as well. Or if there's a GB thread point me there

Updated my previous list. 3 left. There is no group buy per say, I just grabbed a few in case they were a limited commodity, and I know that shipping overseas for Unicomp is a bit nuts. If they happen to still be available later, we can add as an option (the assumption is they won't be).

Techno Trousers wrote: ↑*These are lot_lizard inventions/innovations that I am convinced will make these assemblies BETTER than original Model F internals.

Very nice list Techno. Appreciate you posting it. For this "inventions/innovations", I would say more observations. It is always easier to improve designs than to innovate originally. We have the benefit of better materials and processing techniques to take advantage of.

I do have 2 personal Bigfeet that I will be adding to the switch pool. The boards are complete and in good shape. alh84001 has already requested the caps from one amongst some other odds and ends, but if there are other parts, or the entire board of any of these you saw previously. Continue to PM. The prices will be in the theme of everything else we are doing here (low).

lot_lizard · 26 Jul 2016, 02:21

Okay... I'll be the first to say that I was skeptical of the floss mod. I had only ever tried on an M, and absolutely hated everything about it. Regardless of length, it was a thunky sloppy mess.

Having said that, I experimented on our modded board for multiple nights now in various combinations of lengths and I am absolutely drinking the Koolaid at this point (kudos Fohat). Between the variable length floss and tension screws... This is turning out to be truly exceptional. I will put together two diagrams (one for screw tension, and the second for floss) talking about the variable differences. But to give you an idea, think about the Realforce variable weight

What I am talking about has VERY LITTLE to do with weight, but audible variances. To sum it up, screw tension should be increased as you move away from the center of the board, and floss lengths would be shortened. This includes columns and ROWS (different than Topre VW).

Moral... We are really onto something. Think Phosphorglow Model M tuning on an F

drevyek · 26 Jul 2016, 07:07

lot_lizard wrote: ↑Okay... I'll be the first to say that I was skeptical of the floss mod. I had only ever tried on an M, and absolutely hated everything about it. Regardless of length, it was a thunky sloppy mess.

Having said that, I experimented on our modded board for multiple nights now in various combinations of lengths and I am absolutely drinking the Koolaid at this point (kudos Fohat). Between the variable length floss and tension screws... This is turning out to be truly exceptional. I will put together two diagrams (one for screw tension, and the second for floss) talking about the variable differences. But to give you an idea, think about the Realforce variable weight

What I am talking about has VERY LITTLE to do with weight, but audible variances. To sum it up, screw tension should be increased as you move away from the center of the board, and floss lengths would be shortened. This includes columns and ROWS (different than Topre VW). It is so consistent now (mind you I have the wife's stethoscope out... AUDIBLE OCD thanks to you fuckers remember ). I didn't think it was possible to be this tightly tuned, and this has been the most unexpected surprise thus far.

Moral... We are really onto something. Think Phosphorglow Model M tuning on an F

I've been using a Floss modded M for a while now. I have the SSK-section floss modded, with the numpad untouched, so I have a control. I use a thin floss for mine, so I don't really lose any tactility. I find that the sound is stronger- more bass, more deep. It emphasizes the click, and the actual press, as opposed to the reverb of the spring, which is key. I'll experiment with how small I can make the floss, while still killing ping, and visa-versa.

shreebles · 26 Jul 2016, 10:54

While the sound changes in a positive way I think for me the feeling always changed in a negative way.

My floss-modded M compared to stock feels so slow, heavy and less springy.
I need to remove the floss to check if that's really the reason.

lot_lizard · 26 Jul 2016, 12:44

shreebles wrote: ↑While the sound changes in a positive way I think for me the feeling always changed in a negative way.

My floss-modded M compared to stock feels so slow, heavy and less springy.
I need to remove the floss to check if that's really the reason.

I was completely in your boat with my experiments originally on an M... It felt gross afterwards. The F gets away with it [better], but even then I didn't like the first couple I tried that were close to the full length of the spring. Millimeter differences had impact (especially when hovering around 50% of the spring length) with VERY little tactile loss. With ear plugs in, I couldn't perceive any. Note this took multiple hours dorking around to reach that level, and keep in mind I'm tensioning screws in the "middle" of the board along the way.

I'm not convinced there aren't better materials or methods, but it does make me want to continue to experiment spring concepts later. The gist... With a LOT of patience, there is no question positive results can come out of it.

shreebles · 26 Jul 2016, 13:38

Damn... millimeter differences was also my experience with the Model M... My painful, boring experience.

Even doing this the normal, sloppy way it took me HOURS. That's why I'm still reluctant to take the vacuum cleaner and simply suck the annoying floss bits out.

Cutting the floss to the correct length was much more difficult than I had expected.
A tool such as a standard paper scissor is not even precise enough for that kind of work.

fohat · 26 Jul 2016, 16:21

The floss mod on a Model M is useless and generally counterproductive, but it is vital on an F.

And yes, you need a VERY sharp precise pair of scissors. And don't fluff the end of the cut or else just throw the piece away, you won't get it in.

lot_lizard · 27 Jul 2016, 17:29

Cindy has managed to come to the rescue again... this time with our USB cables. She had a contact that she managed to talk down to 75 cents per USB cable (6 foot length). It will be slightly higher than that in the end after shipping is factored in, but should work nicely for the USB type B connectors we have mentioned having on the new xWhatsit. At that price, just plan on having one included with any xWhatsit order later (even if you don't need one, I don't want to have to keep up with it as a separate option

)

Assume similar to the following (likely not gold plated):

lot_lizard · 27 Jul 2016, 19:44

I just had a nice little delivery from Unicomp. These are definitely originals that were left over from their initial purchase, and not something they have reproduced (no question). We are down to 2 available now because I'm deciding to keep one

. If anyone is interested, let me know.

Also... If a side-by-side comparison with the original is interesting, let me know. If they still have some available, I would recommend cleaning them out.

: image.jpeg (1.54 MiB) Viewed 6213 times

: image.jpeg (1.57 MiB) Viewed 6213 times

emdude · 27 Jul 2016, 19:54

Very nice, I am looking forward to receiving mine.

I did notice this on Unicomp's store page, but those extra cutouts on the LED cluster bother me a little. It looks like they were cut out manually (and rather shoddily, at that) to accommodate the centered LEDs of later Model Ms and Unicomps. I hope light doesn't bleed through the sticker.

I guess I could just cover up those extra holes with electrical tape or something though.

lot_lizard · 27 Jul 2016, 20:08

emdude wrote: ↑but those extra cutouts on the LED cluster bother me a little. It looks like they were cut out manually (and rather shoddily, at that) to accommodate the centered LEDs of later Model Ms and Unicomps.

Agreed... I think a drunk monkey could have done better there. Shouldn't be an issue when covered though, or like you say, cover the backside as well

Vizir · 27 Jul 2016, 23:40

is there an interest list or wait list that i need to sign up for? my ssk arrives in a couple of days, and then its game on!

lot_lizard · 28 Jul 2016, 00:03

Vizir wrote: ↑is there an interest list or wait list that i need to sign up for? my ssk arrives in a couple of days, and then its game on!

We haven't started a group buy yet. I am still waiting to have the final version of the plates with slight changes produced from our metal shop friends that will be engineering the top and bottom plates for the GB. Still working out the foam, and the PCB and controller need to be tested. We are probably targeting some time in September to start the group buy at this point, and a month for it to run. Keep checking back, but eventually we will create a thread in the Marketplace once the group buy kicks off. This is just the brainstorming area. The Marketplace thread will be much more polished and less scatter brained.

lot_lizard · 28 Jul 2016, 02:42

For those of you participating in the tiny industrial case GB, would you like the IBM light grey/blue sticker removed and the LED sticker adhered (or loose with everything else)? Two separate questions. I am going to be removing mine with a proper heat gun to add our WCass/Seebart badge. My method is much easier (and less dangerous) than anything you would have (assuming you don't have a heat gun). There is a big difference between it and a hair dryer. I would save the "original" for you. Let me know via here or PM. Planning to smurf with tomorrow

alh84001 · 28 Jul 2016, 03:26

You can mod mine if you need rest from all the other projects

pyrelink · 28 Jul 2016, 03:31

Just got my industrial case in the mail. Looks good except for the weird holes that they drilled for the LEDs. Also seems like the LED cover that I thought I ordered was never added to my shopping cart before I paid and forgot about it. So looks like I need one of those.

Otherwise very happy with the case. Never thought I would ever have an industrial at a reasonable price, let alone an Industrial MF, so I guess today is going pretty okay.

lot_lizard · 28 Jul 2016, 03:55

alh84001 wrote: ↑You can mod mine if you need rest from all the other projects

Happy to. Takes very little time if done when I do mine.

pyrelink wrote: ↑Also seems like the LED cover that I thought I ordered was never added to my shopping cart before I paid and forgot about it. So looks like I need one of those.

I might make another order of 5-10 of these as we start our group buy (assuming there is ANY chance they are still available then). If they are, I will grab an extra LED overlay for you then since the overlays are available all the time. If anyone is interested in other Unicomp items, but have been leary because of their ridiculous shipping for single items, PM me to have as part of your order. We will be freighting one MASSIVE package to our Euro proxy to disperse more cheaply... a good opportunity for one offs

drevyek · 28 Jul 2016, 16:53

lot_lizard wrote: ↑For those of you participating in the tiny industrial case GB, would you like the IBM light grey/blue sticker removed and the LED sticker adhered (or loose with everything else)? Two separate questions. I am going to be removing mine with a proper heat gun to add our WCass/Seebart badge. My method is much easier (and less dangerous) than anything you would have (assuming you don't have a heat gun). There is a big difference between it and a hair dryer. I would save the "original" for you. Let me know via here or PM. Planning to smurf with tomorrow

I think I'd prefer to keep mine "original" to the untrained eye. I have a heat gun at home, so if I change my mind, it'd be a quick replacement!

They look great- I was a bit worried that they grey of the cases wouldn't be as deep.