(Model MF) Remodeling the Model M (aka.. the Mara)

[andrewjoy]

And the final phase of this project is M and SSK cases in metal.

And with that any reason to buy the new 4704s has gone for me.

[seebart]

And the final phase of this project is M and SSK cases in metal.

And with that any reason to buy the new 4704s has gone for me.

Same here, if that happens I'm placing (another) order with you.

[Techno Trousers]

And the final phase of this project is M and SSK cases in metal.

I think we *may* have to convince lizard of that, since his latest post about phase 2 sounded like it was flat plates or bust (no more curved plates produced, which to my mind means no FEXT/FSSK compatible metal cases, and no compatibility with existing IBM caps, just cherry caps with adapters). I didn't want to muddy the waters further about phase 2, which is why I didn't bring this up earlier.

Honestly, I was hoping that in phase 2 I would be able to buy at least one complete, from scratch "Model F SSK" or parts to build it, with newly produced plates, barrels, flippers, springs, foam, and a metal case. I think it may be going in a different direction though.

[fohat]

And the final phase of this project is M and SSK cases in metal.

I think we *may* have to convince lizard of that, since his latest post about phase 2 sounded like it was flat plates or bust (no more curved plates produced, which to my mind means no FEXT/FSSK compatible metal cases, and no compatibility with existing IBM caps, just cherry caps with adapters). I didn't want to muddy the waters further about phase 2, which is why I didn't bring this up earlier.

Honestly, I was hoping that in phase 2 I would be able to buy at least one complete, from scratch "Model F SSK" or parts to build it, with newly produced plates, barrels, flippers, springs, foam, and a metal case. I think it may be going in a different direction though.

Oh, I may have to dredge through this again. Perhaps I was mistaken and dreaming and/or hallucinating.

I have always thought that the endgame was Model M/Fs in full-size and SSK metal cases.

Personally, I was wishing/dreaming about only one deviation from "the one true keyboard" layout being: Windows keys (a la Unicomp 103).

[seebart]

Well guys let lizard do his magic for now and we'll see what is realistically doable.

[Techno Trousers]

Well guys let lizard do his magic for now and we'll see what is realistically doable.

Agreed. We're getting close on phase one, and that will already result in a keyboard that's better than I ever thought possible!

[elecplus]

So this project will be using SSK and regular M 101-103 type cases? I am asking because there are a large qty of 101 and 122 key Model Ms that I could pick up tomorrow. No more standard SSK, but there is one terminal style.

[E TwentyNine]

So this project will be using SSK and regular M 101-103 type cases? I am asking because there are a large qty of 101 and 122 key Model Ms that I could pick up tomorrow. No more standard SSK, but there is one terminal style.

Yes, standard cases.

[E TwentyNine]

And the final phase of this project is M and SSK cases in metal.

I thought the final phase was rich Corinthian leather.

Though I'd be more apt to go for a nicely done up wood case than a metal one.

[Vizir]

Why not an ergonomic layout?

Actually some Buckling Spring Dox would be fun. This is why Phase 2 will be focused on getting flat plate buckling springs to work. It will... I have faith. And it opens up "limitless" cheap layout possibilities for the switch.

I've been mulling over making a ergo F and and ergo beamspring after that. Just haven't really had time to do any actual pcb design yet.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[fohat]

So this project will be using SSK and regular M 101-103 type cases? I am asking because there are a large qty of 101 and 122 key Model Ms that I could pick up tomorrow. No more standard SSK, but there is one terminal style.

Terminal cases are problematic because they don't have the right caps and lack LEDs.

Beige 101/103 cases are available brand new from Unicomp for $20, but if standard Ms were available for somewhere in that order of magnitude, a good set of original keycaps would make it worthwhile to break them up and sell them off for parts.

[andrewjoy]

Unicomp do standard 101 black cases too right ?

[alh84001]

Everyone has a preference. I love the F-row-less TKL, or the full size.

This. But instead of the numpad, F keys on the left please. That's why I love the XTant (regardless of it's 1.25U keys). Unsaver is also great (AT is not far off too), except...

Personally, I was wishing/dreaming about only one deviation from "the one true keyboard" layout being: Windows keys (a la Unicomp 103).

...it doesn't have the Super key. And I agree, 103 layout with 1.5U-1U-1.5U on each side of the spacebar is absolutely the way to go. So basically, something between F77 and F107. F87/F82 anyone?

[fohat]

it doesn't have the Super key.

And I agree, 103 layout with 1.5U-1U-1.5U on each side of the spacebar is absolutely the way to go.
So basically, something between F77 and F107. F87/F82 anyone?

Nothing will ever happen until the choices are winnowed down to a very small number, such as 1

Or 2

3 choices probably forces a deal-killer, but with Unicomp offering the 101 and 103/4 cases and "original" 101 and SSK cases being available in the wild, IBM has already shown that ANSI/ISO alternatives and "secret keys" are within the realm of reason utilizing a single PCB design.

Straying beyond these is flirting with the death of the project.

[drevyek]

Everyone has a preference. I love the F-row-less TKL, or the full size.

This. But instead of the numpad, F keys on the left please. That's why I love the XTant (regardless of it's 1.25U keys). Unsaver is also great (AT is not far off too), except...

The AT had a great layout, BAE aside. They did a great job with having the f keys on the left- lots of space to have both the f keys, or have added modifiers/macros, if desired.

Everyone has their own preferences, and when you get to a certain depth into it, people start having very specific preferences. The ideal is to have one or two pcb's that accommodate as best we can. That leaves, generally, a full sized, and a TKL, as much as the loss of a potential F82 would be.

(Would phase 1 be the F101 and F84, then?)

[lot_lizard]

Would phase 1 be the F101 and F84, then?

Phase 1 will have every barrel on the SSK and Full Size as an operational pad. So if you wanted to pull a stabilizer from a barrel, and have as a split key layout (think split backspace), it would work. In addition, the winkeys (between ctrl and alt on both sides) will also be there.

[Techno Trousers]

Personally, I was wishing/dreaming about only one deviation from "the one true keyboard" layout being: Windows keys (a la Unicomp 103).

...it doesn't have the Super key. And I agree, 103 layout with 1.5U-1U-1.5U on each side of the spacebar is absolutely the way to go. So basically, something between F77 and F107. F87/F82 anyone?

My own FSSK and FEXT will have a fn/super key. It will be immediately to the right of a short ISO left shift, and when combined with new barrels in the dead space between alt/ctrl, will turn the original 87/101 layouts into 90/104 key layouts. That's the genius of IBM's original buckling spring barrel plate idea. So many configuration possibilities for so little customization effort. No other type of keyboard can compare.

[alh84001]

Nothing will ever happen until the choices are winnowed down to a very small number, such as 1

Oh, I agree. This was more an academic discussion in IBM layouts. The key is to keep focus, even more in phase 2, than in phase 1, and it's up to lot_lizard to make a choice. And it is only expected of us to bitch and moan if we get a decision or two not in line with personal preference. It's a sign of love for this project

[lot_lizard]

I'm out of town for work until late tomorrow evening, and will reply to the PM's on Friday morning (sorry for the delays). It dawned on me though that I never posted the pictures of the SSK and full-size PCB's with the controller attached in the new style. This was to test the direct connection WCass mentioned (think slip on connector like the xWhatsit beam spring). I wanted to test clearance in the case, and soldered the controller directly on the back of the PCB in an inverted fashion. Turned out well (I prefer this to the ribbon cable), and clearance is not going to be a factor. Thought it might help to visualize what the eventual configuration would look like (will use the smaller xWhatsit, and slip on connector versus soldered). Certainly a cleaner approach.

xWhatsit soldered directly to the back of the SSK PCB (inverted)

FullSizeRender.jpg (906.68 KiB) Viewed 5083 times

Side profile to get a feel for spacing between the controller and eventual assembly back plate. The controller was isolated with tape anywhere that could present grounding issues

FullSizeRender-5.jpg (168.96 KiB) Viewed 5083 times

Easier to visualize the inverted positioning. Nice thing about the xWhatsit is there is no "solder side"

FullSizeRender-2.jpg (604.34 KiB) Viewed 5083 times

SSK PCB from the back

FullSizeRender-4.jpg (697.64 KiB) Viewed 5083 times

SSK PCB from the front

FullSizeRender-3.jpg (801.15 KiB) Viewed 5083 times

Full-size PCB from the front (just to remind everyone that we aren't forgetting it ;))

FullSizeRender-1.jpg (645.46 KiB) Viewed 5083 times

[Techno Trousers]

That looks great! It'll be perfect with a "clip in" configuration and daughter board combo.

[Invisius]

Wow! Looks as professional as a factory original. Impressed at how far this has come in such a short time.

My SSK case is just begging for these.

[andrewjoy]

looking good, would look even better in matte white soldermask. just saying

[lot_lizard]

looking good, would look even better in matte white soldermask. just saying

Actually that's a good point... Poll created for PCB color (blame andrewjoy ). Even though you have two options, please limit one to each form factor. Will have to research if the matte surface is even an option. Assume shiny for now

We will have a second poll for the xWhatsit (includes daughter board) color afterwards. Sorry for all poll spam. I am pretty sure we might be approaching some record for most polls from a single thread.

[Hypersphere]

<snip>
<snip>
<snip>

We will never make another curved plate project after Phase 1 (at least that I would actively participate in)'. Even if you couldn't afford the switches at the moment, and didn't currently have access to a donor board... I would at minimum pick up the parts needed to do so if you thought you might have interest later since we really are running this whole thing with a zero profit goal (you could easily sell the kit later to recover costs).
<snip>

Although I greatly appreciate your outstanding efforts on these projects, I was disappointed about abandoning curved plates for Phase II. I've always thought of the curved plate as one of the hallmarks of IBM keyboards. With a flat plate, would it still be possible to achieve row profiles with interchangeable same-height IBM keycaps, or is the concept of Phase to move well beyond the original IBM designs?

[fohat]

Although I greatly appreciate your outstanding efforts on these projects, I was disappointed about abandoning curved plates for Phase II. I've always thought of the curved plate as one of the hallmarks of IBM keyboards. With a flat plate, would it still be possible to achieve row profiles with interchangeable same-height IBM keycaps, or is the concept of Phase to move well beyond the original IBM designs?

Same here.

I have 0.000% interest in non-IBM compatible components, and particularly with non-interchangeable keys and parts.

[lot_lizard]

... I was disappointed about abandoning curved plates for Phase II. I've always thought of the curved plate as one of the hallmarks of IBM keyboards. With a flat plate, would it still be possible to achieve row profiles with interchangeable same-height IBM keycaps, or is the concept of Phase to move well beyond the original IBM designs?

Reading the tone of my original statement... It was a little harsh. I really have no idea yet what Phase 2 actually holds, but the Cherry adapter prototypes are looking really promising (haven't posted anything because I am trying to avoid "phase confusion"). If they continue to progress, I would like to use Cherry MX caps in Phase 2 since it finally opens up unique cap choices to buckling spring fans. With it, comes the need of flat (or flatter) plates.


There are several advantages to flat plates in the build process (inexpensive) and design flexibility (layouts, cases, etc), so I would like to exhaust that option as much as possible. In the end though, we might end up right back where we started?!?

The point of that harsh statement before was just that curved plates are currently outside the scope of Phase 2, and if anyone was interested in that style of assembly, I would highly recommend hopping on the train for the first phase.

FOR METAL CASES that support the Phase 1 drop-in (or legacy Model M assembly for that matter), we will do that somewhere along the way as a standalone group buy. Not sure when, but I think it would be fun as well. At that time though, we won't be doing anything else (no Phase 1 plates, PCB's, etc), just the metal cases. The plans will be published and always available for someone to produce them, but will be expensive in small quantities.

EDIT: and maybe the answer to cap issues becomes getting either Unicomp or a new player to step up both quality and selection. The buckling spring is a lovely little switch that gets passed over by many because it is painted into a corner with cap options. I think we would have much greater support of the switch if we could overcome some of it's hurdles that prevent adoption. I actually prefer the beam spring, but until someone can produce a new lower-profile version, it will always be a fringe switch.

[Techno Trousers]

FOR METAL CASES that support the Phase 1 drop-in (or legacy Model M assembly for that matter), we will do that somewhere along the way as a standalone group buy. Not sure when, but I think it would be fun as well. At that time though, we won't be doing anything else (no Phase 1 plates, PCB's, etc), just the metal cases. The plans will be published and always available for someone to produce them, but will be expensive in small quantities.

This is fantastic news! I think I'm now mentally prepared to order 2 of each phase 1 assembly now.

We think that phase 2 barrels and flippers will be 100℅ backwards compatible, right? If so, I can order that second FSSK without barrels and springs, and mothball it until the case, barrels, and springs are produced.

[lot_lizard]

We think that phase 2 barrels and flippers will be 100℅ backwards compatible, right? If so, I can order that second FSSK without barrels and springs, and mothball it until the case, barrels, and springs are produced.

100% yes. If/when we flatten the plates, we will need to tighten the distance between the rows by ~2mm. So really the only change to the switch (other than some silencing technique that we might like) would be that the barrel base is ~2mm shorter on the Y plane, and the flipper's paddle will need to be shortened by ~1mm. This will have almost ZERO impact on anything functionally. Not sure the barrel lock mechanism just yet (XT or AT style), but it will be one of them.


We want people to have the opportunity to add switches back to these harvested donor boards if they choose to in the future.

[Techno Trousers]

That's awesome. But I think this project should be code named "Memento" since it's happening in non-linear time.

Just on a personal note, I hope I haven't sounded too negative about the flat plates and cherry caps for phase 2. I'm quite intrigued by that, and will almost certainly be buying at least a TKL sized version of whatever you come up with. I do think, however, that phase 2 will generally have more appeal to the Cherry/Topre/Alps enthusiasts more so than the IBM enthusiasts, especially if you end up creating 60%, Ergodox, White Fox, or other small/non-standard layouts. Shoot, I would probably get an Ergodox for my brother who only uses ergo keyboards these days. I got him a funky Alps ergonomic board for his birthday.

[Techno Trousers]

Not sure the barrel lock mechanism just yet (XT or AT style), but it will be one of them.

We want people to have the opportunity to add switches back to these harvested donor boards if they choose to in the future.

For point 1, let's make a mental note to have that choice finalized before phase 1 ordering opens, so we can know what type of phase 1 plate to order to make it compatible with the upcoming barrels. And for point 2, won't point 1 kind of make that impossible for the "losing" lock option? I suppose what would make the most sense is to choose the barrel type based on the distribution you're getting from your donor boards. My gut says that the AT style will be most plentiful, but maybe not.