(Model MF) Remodeling the Model M (aka.. the Mara)

lot_lizard · 07 Oct 2016, 22:06

Quick status update on our switch supply. XMIT was nice enough to have 14 boards for our cause, and another 4 122's from Cindy. So assume another ~1700 switches. We are officially below 50 cents a switch now with their contributions (theirs were ~40 cents a piece)... Putting out total at 48 cents a switch I believe. That doesn't include the parts sales, but that impact is going to be minimal. We might get down to 43-45 cents a switch, but that is about the floor I believe. For now, still plan on 50 cents a switch for budgeting, and any excessive will be either compensated in shipping, or refunded.

fohat · 07 Oct 2016, 22:10

So are you close to finalizing a price and date for the primary project?

lot_lizard · 08 Oct 2016, 01:10

fohat wrote: ↑So are you close to finalizing a price and date for the primary projectm

We are golden for everything other than a couple of updates. We are in no rush, but receiving those design changes and testing is really all that is left. I have received finalized quotes from everything else. You will be pleased if you were planning on 150 a kit... that I can say. I hate to say much more until I see the final designs for everything though. I would be comfortable starting the group buy as soon as others that I trust were "confident" in the final designs/updates... We want it "right" though

Spaceman1200 · 08 Oct 2016, 17:50

lot_lizard wrote: ↑
fohat wrote: ↑So are you close to finalizing a price and date for the primary projectm
We are golden for everything other than a couple of updates. We are in no rush, but receiving those design changes and testing is really all that is left. I have received finalized quotes from everything else. You will be pleased if you were planning on 150 a kit... that I can say. I hate to say much more until I see the final designs for everything though. I would be comfortable starting the group buy as soon as others that I trust were "confident" in the final designs/updates... We want it "right" though

Getting excited! Can't wait to see how these turn out.

ohaimark · 08 Oct 2016, 17:59

Will the group buy be for Model Ms and SSKs, or just Model Ms?

Sorry if that's a silly question... 40 pages of Q&A + updates is a lot to sort through.

E TwentyNine · 08 Oct 2016, 18:53

ohaimark wrote: ↑Will the group buy be for Model Ms and SSKs, or just Model Ms?

Sorry if that's a silly question... 40 pages of Q&A + updates is a lot to sort through.

Both. First post in thread is updated with details from time to time.

climbalima · 08 Oct 2016, 22:59

I am working on a 40% BS board and want to thank you for your cad resources. Made everything so much easier.

lot_lizard · 08 Oct 2016, 23:19

So I have a 3276 (beamspring) that needs to be restored. I am going to take the next few weeks (October is murder for me at work), and scan in all the keys and finally make a public Selectric font. It's time we had one. This isn't tied to Phase 1 our project in any way, but more the cap topic as of late.

I noticed that Ellipse had interest in this font for his project too (no idea what his end goal is, up to him to announce), but PM'd and he had some interest in the font if I put it together. Long term, I think he would be our dye-sub go-to and I would focus on the inverse (dark caps with light font

climbalima wrote: ↑I am working on a 40% BS board and want to thank you for your cad resources. Made everything so much easier.

Excellent... What it is all about. I do have about 20x more than what I have put out there I would happily share if you were actively engaged in something. I won't publish publicly until we have a full "perfect" protoype all the way around, but it could certainly aid you with several disclaimers that I would point out. Again... PM if interesting.

Techno Trousers · 09 Oct 2016, 01:49

Ellipse had said numerous times that he is doing his project as two rounds, and never again. Do you think he's going to want to produce key caps on an ongoing basis? Or do you mean we'd do a single run in collaboration with Ellipse's Chinese factory?

lot_lizard · 09 Oct 2016, 02:28

Techno Trousers wrote: ↑Ellipse had said numerous times that he is doing his project as two rounds, and never again. Do you think he's going to want to produce key caps on an ongoing basis? Or do you mean we'd do a single run in collaboration with Ellipse's Chinese factory?

I have little idea of what he would do with it, but I'm under the impression that this is equipment he is investing in personally. I will let him clarify though when he is comfortable.

I am just tired of not having the real "selectric" font in house for public use... So I have decided to create it while waiting for things to wrap up. It's time consuming, but by no means difficult to replicate a font that already exists (nothing novel there). I am confident I can figure out a way to reliably "dye-sub" with this engraver, but if he keeps the prices realistic, I'll stay out of of that space since I think he is picking it up (there is an investment on his part of time and money). Instead, we'll focus on the inverse (light font on dark caps).

I have huge respect for everything he is doing. It's a ton of work, and I never want to take away from his efforts or act like I am competing. If we all pick unique spaces to contribute, we can make magic happen.

To answer the question though... We'll be doing this font long term (even in dye-sub if he chooses not to).

fohat · 09 Oct 2016, 02:40

lot_lizard wrote: ↑
not having the real "selectric" font in house for public use

I am confident I can figure out a way to reliably "dye-sub" with this engraver

Your process should be called "reverse-dye-sublimation" if I am understanding it correctly, right?

This thing is killing my wallet. What sort of price are we talking about for cutting a set of caps, if we provide the caps?

Last, the space bar is a long palette just begging for something to be written on it. "IBM Model M/F" or the owner's full name, perhaps?

"Selectric" font is the way to go, now I have to decide on a color scheme:

lot_lizard · 09 Oct 2016, 02:57

fohat wrote: ↑Your process should be called "reverse-dye-sublimation" if I am understanding it correctly, right?

For now.. Yes. We are capable of both removing and adding pigment though. I haven't ever put photos out of my best "dye-sub" (adding pigment), but we are very capable of producing good results. For now, we will remove pigment on previously dyed caps to make light fonts though. I'd like Ellipse to own the "adding pigment" space if he would like to (sharing fonts with us)

fohat wrote: ↑This thing is killing my wallet. What sort of price are we talking about for cutting a set of caps, if we provide the caps?

I already have the engraver allocated for other cost recovery measures in a separate non-keyboard venture. We will recover some cost as part of the "foam" process for phase 1 (very little), but I'm not trying to generate revenue with these caps. If you send me a set of previously dyed caps, and fill out the previously supplied template properly, you will only be responsible for actual shipping costs back to you. I don't want to be a "cap guy", but this machine and our research can add value. I want to focus phase 2 still. You fill out the SVG template properly... It is very little effort on my end to finish your work

XMIT · 09 Oct 2016, 02:58

lot_lizard wrote: ↑Quick status update on our switch supply. XMIT was nice enough to have 14 boards for our cause, and another 4 122's from Cindy. So assume another ~1700 switches.

Most of these 14 boards were XTs or Bigfoots, with 83 switches each. That's 1162 from me or so. 4 122s brings it up to 1650. This is assuming that each and every flipper and spring and barrel is perfect!

I'm happy to help, but man, stripping 14 boards was mind numbing. I'm looking forward to not doing that again for a while.

lot_lizard · 09 Oct 2016, 03:11

XMIT wrote: ↑I'm happy to help, but man, stripping 14 boards was mind numbing. I'm looking forward to not doing that again for a while.

You rock dude... It does suck doing in bulk. I for one owe you signature cocktail (maybe five?!?). The worst is when they used that adhesive on the more resilient foam. It's a gummy MESS. Cindy was nice enough to do the same on the (4) F122 switches that delivered today (3 of which had the "gum"). I suspect she will just want to send the whole boards next time and say... "Good LUCK!!!". The two of you are awesome for saving me/us steps (and shipping)

XMIT · 09 Oct 2016, 12:39

Yeah that adhesive is pretty terrible. I think like five of the boards I tore into had it. You'll definitely want to clean these in say alcohol to get little bits of glue and foam off before use!

fohat · 09 Oct 2016, 14:54

You really think that they used "glue"?

I figured that the mat breaks down in different ways depending on the environment that it was stored in. I have found that, typically, the "skin" side melts into a sticky residue and the "foam" side disintegrates into a gummy "grit"

My experiences have been across the spectrum from a beautiful resilient like-new specimen all the way to nothing left but sludge.

Also, a good soak in water followed by a scrub with soap has always been enough for mine.

BinaryHalibut · 09 Oct 2016, 16:28

I've found that soaking in a laundry detergent mix for a couple hours with occasional gentle agitation gets pretty much everything off without even having to scrub very much. The barrels of the one board that I had with partially disintegrated foam came out squeaky clean, and 2-3 cycles of this cleaned up the keycaps of a model M that looked like it was stored in cosmoline or something.

lot_lizard · 09 Oct 2016, 17:48

Off to scan our caps. This will probably surprise everyone, but I don't have a printer or flatbed scanner. I'm paper averse, and don't even have a pen on my desk

Here are the caps that will be our templates (at least initially). They are from a 3276. To be honest, there are several keys that I would alter slightly if designing from scratch. I think A-Z are perfect... Always have. For 0-9, there are small touches I think could look better. Most of the symbols are fantastic, but the proportions (scale) are a little large in some spots, and some like Shift just seem out of place.

I should probably start another thread as this font is developed over the coming weeks to get a wider range of feedback, but at the same time... I don't want this being a universal Selectric font. It is all about how it should appear on M and F PBT caps. Muirium... If you're out there, I would love your help. Plan on several changes along the way, especially after they are physically produced and not just academic.

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E TwentyNine · 09 Oct 2016, 18:36

Shift seems out of place how? All symbol non-alphas is the way I'd go, for enter, shift, tab...

As for the rest, what are you contemplating? I think 6 and 9 should be exactly the same on the numpad.

lot_lizard · 09 Oct 2016, 19:15

E TwentyNine wrote: ↑Shift seems out of place how? All symbol non-alphas is the way I'd go, for enter, shift, tab...

As for the rest, what are you contemplating? I think 6 and 9 should be exactly the same on the numpad.

Not sure just yet. Tiny things. But this font will appear slightly different on our flat (non-spherical keys) unless we compensate a bit. The shift example was in relation to the size of Capslock, etc... not that the symbol itself is bad. For 0-9, the only ones that have ever truly bothered me were 3 and 8 (at least in relation to the rounded nature of everything else). They have a very small odd block to them.

Fonts are always a massive debate, and there is generally no "right" answer. Obviously our symbols will be exchanged all over the place (shift + num row is completely different now, and many more things related to layout). I just know the Selectric set for the M I have now needs small touches. It is more obvious in person, but it is mostly related to the font being "flatter" now.

Techno Trousers · 09 Oct 2016, 19:23

I'm actually not that nitpicky about fonts, maybe because 99% of the time I'm touch typing and not looking at the keys. I think being proportionally sized (agree about the caps lock size being out of place), and consistently placed are by far the most important things.

I think you should trust in your instincts in making the minor tweaks, and most of us will likely be very excited about the results!

E TwentyNine · 09 Oct 2016, 19:28

Barring the physical characteristics of the curve of the key surface for the moment, the 6 and 9 on the numpad are not the same, while the 6 and 9 in the num row are. I like 3 and 8, they feel "vintage". #onetruefont

fohat · 09 Oct 2016, 19:44

lot_lizard wrote: ↑
the only ones that have ever truly bothered me were 3 and 8 (at least in relation to the rounded nature of everything else). They have a very small odd block to them.

If you are talking about the flat at the bottom of the 8, I agree, but the bottom of the 3 looks round.

lot_lizard · 09 Oct 2016, 21:59

Attached the completely unorganized scan of the caps for those that are interested. This is scaled down to 10% of the resolution that they were captured at to not be a site pig. Much better viewing than the previous pics though.

And for the "tweaks"... realize that NO ONE loves this font more than me. I have several beamsprings, and they spend more than 50% of the time as my daily drivers. But we might improve a thing or two in the spots where it makes sense. I agree with the use of symbols as much as possible (we are picky @#$!ers after all). Insert/Delete on a beamspring is just perfect. I haven't thought much yet about the Page Up/Down or Home/End, but we will see what we can come up with. The Page Up is actually going to be "Roll Down" and vis versa if we find symbols to capture that. I can't think of any at the moment, but haven't looked either. I bet Seebart and company can find us something.

It will take me a while to get all of this together if that wasn't obvious. Putting together a proper font pack is tedious

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As an example... We have an X now

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E TwentyNine · 09 Oct 2016, 22:27

Could be an interesting discussion on what symbols would work. I think page up/down could be the tab "arrow into a line" turned left/right, and home/end could be a double arrow into a line.

Couldn't agree more on the insert/delete keys. They're perfect as is.

Darkshado · 10 Oct 2016, 00:00

For page up and page down, I'd take the arrows as they are and add the lines through them akin to the symbol on the Model M.

fohat · 10 Oct 2016, 00:04

I would keep the "6-pack" ANSI-standard.

E TwentyNine · 10 Oct 2016, 00:10

fohat wrote: ↑I would keep the "6-pack" ANSI-standard.

Which means what?

E TwentyNine · 10 Oct 2016, 00:11

Actually, for home/end, the diagonal arrows could be used.

climbalima · 10 Oct 2016, 03:35

lot_lizard wrote: ↑Excellent... What it is all about. I do have about 20x more than what I have put out there I would happily share if you were actively engaged in something. I won't publish publicly until we have a full "perfect" protoype all the way around, but it could certainly aid you with several disclaimers that I would point out. Again... PM if interesting.

I will if I run into any trouble! Right now im just waiting for parts from ellipse, so im at a standstill. Thank you though. I like the idea of bringing buckling spring back, but want to get a more modern bezel and layout supported.