Hi-Profile PBT Dye-sub (the time has come)

[Wodan]

So there won't be a "Row3" like we have in SA?

When putting these caps on a "high" board like a G80-1800, what profile would you recommend for the keys above the numpad?

When putting SA caps on an 1800, it feels and looks odd to have three rows of Row1 profile keycaps up there.

[matt3o]

The transition from row 2 to row 3 looks odd. Are those two rows the same, but the other way round?
A parallel row 3, like in SA, would look much better I think.

they look pretty good on the keyboard, they are just odd when you look at them on the same plane.

I'm iffy about the front lip of the mods immediately beside the space bar being a different height. Ideally that whole row is thumb-slide smooth.

the spacebar feels pretty good as it is now, making the mods the same height/shape would kill the profile though

When putting SA caps on an 1800, it feels and looks odd to have three rows of Row1 profile keycaps up there.

We have: R0, R1, R2, R3, R4, R4. So if I understand your concern, that shouldn't be a problem.

[Laser]

I kinda like them ... parallel or not ... How do they feel? Is the "concavity" not-too-deep and not-too-shallow - does the finger "land" easily in it?

[Wodan]

Oh wow didn't realize there's a Row0 profile. Very neat!

[XMIT]

I kinda like them ... parallel or not ... How do they feel? Is the "concavity" not-too-deep and not-too-shallow - does the finger "land" easily in it?

Tough to tell from the photos, but these seem both a little deeper than SA (not saying much, it's practically flat) and more that a bit less deep than IBM. Maybe about comparable to my Alps PBT dyesubs and/or Alps spherical typewriter caps.

[zslane]

We have: R0, R1, R2, R3, R4, R4.

And, technically, you have R5, the spacebar, which if I'm not mistaken does not match the profile of any other row.

[matt3o]

We have: R0, R1, R2, R3, R4, R4.

And, technically, you have R5, the spacebar, which if I'm not mistaken does not match the profile of any other row.

it kinda follows R4 but it's lower and convex of course.

[zslane]

Yeah, kinda, but not precisely.

I don't think it will have any impact on typing, but it will look bad. And by bad I mean it will look like a design/manufacturing error, the way SA's Shift keys looked wrong for being row3 all those years.

[matt3o]

hold on, the spacebar needs to be first of all comfortable. if we make it R4 it would be a little shit (like SA )

[zslane]

Maybe someone could explain to me the rationale behind having a spacebar that is a different profile than the modifiers on the same row?

[Wodan]

Maybe someone could explain to me the rationale behind having a spacebar that is a different profile than the modifiers on the same row?

Space bars frequently have a different row profile than the bottom row. Ever wondered why so many people fight about the right profile of the Cherry bottom row (RowA vs RowB) and no one ever bothers about the space bar? They haven't changed it even though the bottom row profile was changed.

[matt3o]

also consider that this is a hi profile set. we need some extra care if we don't want the spacebar to destroy your thumbs. but if you guys have suggestions, this is the right time!

[Laser]

I have a feeling this was already discussed (in this very thread?) To my shame, I didn't read it all. Maybe just make the spacebar somewhat taller, but with the same curve? (although I'm ok with it)

@XMIT - thanks for the info Unfortunately, I still can't imagine how these caps feel, since I don't own those other caps you compare them to.

[photekq]

Space bars frequently have a different row profile than the bottom row. Ever wondered why so many people fight about the right profile of the Cherry bottom row (RowA vs RowB) and no one ever bothers about the space bar? They haven't changed it even though the bottom row profile was changed.

Yep, the Cherry spacebar doesn't match A-profile or B-profile, but it looks perfectly fine with both.

[matt3o]

topre hi-pro spacebar vs bottom row

[Laser]

How about the other elements? *Thickness*, color&font for 1st theme?

Re-spacebar: There's also the solution of making the other modifiers resemble the spacebar shape (convex instead of concave), but I don't know if that wasn't already discussed/ruled out, e.g. more or less like here:

[derzemel]

I think the Beamspring designers have had the same issue and their solution was to make the whole bottom row Convex, opposite to the rest of the rows which are concave:

As an example:

I could take a side photo of my 5251 when I get home tonight, if needed.

Anyway, I am not at all bothered by the differences between the space and the rest of the rows as I flip the spacebars.

[Muirium]

Apart from that last part where you admitted to being a monster, I agree exactly. IBM solved this. Convex bottom row is the classy answer.

Now back to what I said before the ninja.

@Matteo: The HiPro has many problems*. You took a picture of one of the most glaring ones! I don't know exactly what I'd do to that spacebar of theirs, as I like it but loathe the way it sits between the mods. The whole bottom row needs a more forgiving front edge, in my view.

*Others include: tall caps but almost no spherical indents, no separate caps on sale, incomplete compatibility with their own boards, and where's the goddamn TKL so we don't have to worry about all this?

[002]

It's weird that Topre did that on the Hi-Pro because the Henkan and Muhenkan keys on their Japanese 108 Realforces are convex and they are infinitely more comfortable to press.

[Wodan]

When it comes to row profiles, the 1-1-2-3-4-3 profile is popular for a good reason in SA sets.

[snuci]

Please don't consider what Topre did with the Hi-pro as a solution. If there's one thing I don't like about the Topre Hi-pro, it's the bottom row. The space bar row feels out of place and too low compared to the 4th row.

It looks like this:

[infodroid]

If you have comments speak now or forever hold your peace

The height of the spacebar does not look right to me, compared to the height of keys on the same row. If Topre Hi Pro and IBM Beam Spring are the inspiration then there should be a higher or a lot more convex space bar than the keys on the same row.

[matt3o]

I posted the picture of the hi pro just to show you that other high profile sets have different spacebars.

The lower spacebar is to make it more comfortable compared to --say-- SA profile. The argument so far is just "make it taller so it is flush with the modifiers", which is aesthetics against usability. Making the last row convex introduces other issues and I wouldn't go that route (even though I admittedly like it).

The spacebar is just few mm shorter, honestly looking at it, it doesn't look out of place. I actually thought it would have been a welcomed feature... go figure.

Thickness is about 1.8mm

[infodroid]

The lower spacebar is to make it more comfortable compared to --say-- SA profile. The argument so far is just "make it taller so it is flush with the modifiers", which is aesthetics against usability. Making the last row convex introduces other issues and I wouldn't go that route (even though I admittedly like it).

Is it really true that taller space bars are less ergonomic? It has not been my experience.

I would be interested in a highly convex space bar option, if possible.

Here are high beam spring spacebars from the IBM beam springs photo thread.

[matt3o]

compared to the other rows those spacebars are very low actually (also the mods and the spacebar are on different layout too ).

we do not make keyboards today like we were in the past. often a keycap set was done exclusively for one keyboard, so maybe the spacebar on its own could be very tall, but when placed on a custom made keyboard on the right angle it is actually very low (like in the pictures above).

[infodroid]

compared to the other rows those spacebars are very low actually (also the mods and the spacebar are on different layout too ).

I see that now. The spacebar is high relative to the adjacent modifiers. But it is somewhat lower on where it should be from the previous row. Also interesting to note those bottom row modifiers are really low!

Surely it is very hard to judge how good a set will feel until using more people are using it, especially if there is nothing else out there like it. I hope this set is not a one-off and will be open to improvements in future rounds...

[matt3o]

it's open to improvements right now We are still making changes. I'm not an engineer or an expert in ergonomics, we are just trying to do what we think it is best. I feel we could raise the spacebar a pinch, but it would be just for the sake of making it closer to the modifiers. Anyway we have still some days to discuss about this.

When the molds are finalized we'll talk about colors and fonts

[snuci]

I feel we could raise the spacebar a pinch, but it would be just for the sake of making it closer to the modifiers.

Perhaps the issue is the modifiers. Just out of curiosity, have you tried flipping the bottom row modifiers around?

The Xerox 820-II keyboard does something like that:

[photekq]

Cherry has a mismatched R5/spacebar too, and I think it looks perfectly sexy

[cookie]

As far as I know the Hi-Pro spacebar has a symetrical profile, that means no more "Flipped" spacebars... that should actually be a standard, I can't stand flipped spacebars!