Hi-Profile PBT Dye-sub (the time has come)

[evoman]

Can I ask a novice question (don't want to start a new thread for this - and it seems relevant here) - how different will I find the hi profile caps compared to an ordinary set and will this profile still work if I am not a touch typist? I mostly use a Model M at work (and more recently a Matias tactile), so that is my background, but I am thinking of trying the hi-pro version of the Topre and am not sure if it will be a problem. The reason? I find the caps too flat on the Matias - I like the switches, but I make more errors compared to the Model M, where I feel like the keys stand out more. thx

[cookie]

That is a pure matter of taste, there are a lot of different keycap profiles out there and you have to find the one you like the most. This graphic here might help you a bit: keyboards-f2/dsa-vs-sa-profile-what-is- ... ml#p222534

But theoretically the Hi-Profile cap will of course be much higher than the Matias caps, they have a completely different shape, surface and dimension. I don't know if there are Hi-Profile caps available in the land of ALPS but I guess some other member can help you out.

Welcome to Deskthority

[Ray]

also consider that this is a hi profile set. we need some extra care if we don't want the spacebar to destroy your thumbs.

If this is true, why doesn't it apply to the mods next to the spacebar?

[evoman]

That is a pure matter of taste, there are a lot of different keycap profiles out there and you have to find the one you like the most. This graphic here might help you a bit: keyboards-f2/dsa-vs-sa-profile-what-is- ... ml#p222534

But theoretically the Hi-Profile cap will of course be much higher than the Matias caps, they have a completely different shape, surface and dimension. I don't know if there are Hi-Profile caps available in the land of ALPS but I guess some other member can help you out.

Welcome to Deskthority

Thanks (for the info and the welcome) - I suppose I need to look more carefully at the profiles on the various boards I have!

[Laser]

also consider that this is a hi profile set. we need some extra care if we don't want the spacebar to destroy your thumbs.

If this is true, why doesn't it apply to the mods next to the spacebar?

I'd say, because you don't hit them with your lateral mid-thumb?

[Muirium]

I thumb my mods just the same way I thumb my space bars. My hands move about a lot (it works for me…) and so I prize consistency. Row 3 SA is fine, but only with that tall space bar of theirs. A mishmash of heights down there gets a literal thumbs down from me. Then immediately back up again, and repeat!

[matt3o]

the spacebar is really really close to the mods, for some reason it look worse than what it is in the picture. I'll take better pictures soon, but we are already applying some small changes to the models... that is what prototypes are for.

[zslane]

Yeah, I agree with Mu.

I type on SA for many hours a day and I have never found the spacebar to be uncomfortable to use. If anything I find the asymmetrical spacebars on other keyboards of mine uncomfortable (e.g., RealForce Hi-Pro, KBP V60 mini).

To my mind, the proper solution to uncomfortable edges on the bottom row is to not have any, i.e., to make the entire row flat like SA. And all the keys, including the spacebar, should be the same height. Whether or not the bottom row mods should be convex like the spacebar is an exercise for the manufacturer, IMO. I think it's a neat idea, but I understand if Matt3o doesn't want to get that fancy.

[infodroid]

also consider that this is a hi profile set. we need some extra care if we don't want the spacebar to destroy your thumbs.

If this is true, why doesn't it apply to the mods next to the spacebar?

I'd say, because you don't hit them with your lateral mid-thumb?

There seems to be some confusion here about which part of the bottom row keys people are actually striking. The fact is, there is no one place that everybody is striking. This is because we all have different typing postures and finger length.

For example, I have been taught that an ergonomic way of typing is to keep your fingers on the home row, ensuring that your palms are in the air such that both your hands and arms are parallel with the desk. If you adopt this posture, you will most likely strike the spacebar towards the top half, depending on the size of your fingers.

But not every types like that. And even good typists get lazy sometimes and rest their palms on the desk, thereby striking the space bar in the bottom half, like the flipped space bar crowd prefer to do.

Which is why I think convex space bars and bottom row modifiers are a good solution for everyone!

[Laser]

Of course, to each their own, but hitting *modifiers* like that seems almost blasphemous to me (i.e. those who hurt your thumbs by hitting the *mods* from the lower part, you, you almost deserve it! ). Half-kidding though, and I have nothing against convex - or concave - stuff.

[zslane]

There seems to be some confusion here about which part of the bottom row keys people are actually striking. The fact is, there is no one place that everybody is striking. This is because we all have different typing postures and finger length.

That may be true, but to my mind the ergonomic argument is a fairly weak one. People bitched and moaned about SA's row3 Shift keys for years, and not because of any ergonomic deficiency, but simply because they didn't look right sitting next to the other row4 keys. The same aesthetic deficiency plagues this set, IMO, and deserves correction for the same reason.

Some folks would prefer the spacebar to match the existing bottom row profile, while some folks would prefer all the bottom row keys to match the existing spacebar profile, while others still would prefer an all new, non-angled profile (like SA's row3) for that entire row, including the spacebar. Maybe it doesn't matter much which profile in particular is chosen, but for heaven's sake, give that entire bottom row a consistent profile.

[infodroid]

People bitched and moaned about SA's row3 Shift keys for years, and not because of any ergonomic deficiency, but simply because they didn't look right sitting next to the other row4 keys. The same aesthetic deficiency plagues this set, IMO, and deserves correction for the same reason.

The situation isn't quite the same as with the SA R3 Shift key. For one thing, fixing the key did not impact the ergonomics of typing.
But more importantly, there has never been consensus on how a hi-profile space bar or bottom row should look like. Rather, what we see across keyboards is a diversity of styles between manufacturers.

I feel that using this keyset as an opportunity to create a new and better bottom row layout risks turning into an expensive experiment. It could leave people with a glorious yet unusable keyset. And I can't imagine a group buy organizer wants to take responsibility for that! Besides, there are cheaper and more effective ways to validate and test new profiles and layouts, such as with 3D printing.

I don't think people here are looking for a work of art. There are already many beautiful vintage keysets out there that we can admire, and a newly-produced keyset is not going be that noteworthy. What this set can offer is something beautiful and usable in a modern context.

[zslane]

Fair enough. However, I still have yet to hear a convincing argument for making the spacebar a different shape than the mods that sit next to it. Like I said, the ergonomic argument is simply bollocks.

[matt3o]

honestly I have to hear convincing argument for not making the spacebar different apart from childish "I don't like it". Also, let's try to calm down, we are talking about people time, effort, labor and money here. This set doesn't come from thin air.

[cookie]

It boils down to comfort vs esthetics, but what is the right path to go? I don't know if I am qualified to say something about it because I've never typed on Hi-Pro caps but am very curios to try them out.

[infodroid]

After some reflection, I now see that the bottom row modifiers are the real problem here.

The palm-on-desk typists are going to be hitting the modifier keys on their sharp edge, which seems like too harsh a sentence just for being lazy!

Flipping the modifier keys around the other way will not work as a solution, because that is just going to cause a problem for the other group of typists.

This is why I think that a flat bottom row is the best compromise in this day and age, whether it is convex or not.

The Xerox 820-II keyboard does something like that:

[matt3o]

that would require a whole new row profile, but as painful as it sounds... I agree with you. Unfortunately that means going back to the dev table and rethink quite few things.

[pomk]

Why not just offer r3 as r5 for folk who wish to rest their hands while typing? Looking at the side profiles, it would almost perfectly match the the spacebar.

[matt3o]

too many molds I'm afraid, it would be very expensive to offer both options.

[snuci]

I think a flat bottom row is the right way to go, even if it delays things. My objection with the Topre Hi-pro solution with a flat bottom row isn't that it's flat but because the 4th row juts up and the 5th row is lower. If, like the Xerox 820-II keyboard shown above, the 5th row is flat and even with the tallest part of the 4th row, this would work nicely. Here's a picture of what I mean with the Topre Hi-pro (that I'm typing on).

5th row lower than 4th row.

Hipro.jpg (36.15 KiB) Viewed 5721 times

As opposed to the Xerox 820-II, the difference in height is not that great. The Apple M0110 also has a lower 5th row but it's flatter than the Topre Hi-pro so that seems to work.



With a very Hi-profile set, the closer the 5th row is to the 4th row height you can get, I think it would be better.

[XMIT]

matt3o, again, how deep are the indentations on the key tops? I really hope it is between 1.15mm and 1.21mm.

The biggest factor in whether or not I "like" a spherical board is the depth of the centers of the switch tops. Shape is secondary - I prefer true spherical or rotated-parabola indentations, not rounded-square-pyramidal indentations as the HiPro uses.

So, I got out my calipers, and measured a bunch of spherical key caps to see how deep they are in the middle, with a subjective comment:

IBM Selectric (love) - 1.15 mm
Micro Switch Hall Effect (love) - 1.21mm
Alps PBT Spherical Dyesub (rather like) - 0.83mm
Alps PBT Spherical Dyesub Homing (rather like) - 1.25mm
Xerox 820 (like, very similar to SA) - 0.93mm
Signature Plastics DSA (like) - 0.90mm
Signature Plastics DSA Homing (like) - 1.10mm
Signature Plastics SA (don't like - too shallow) - 0.84mm
Signature Plastics SA Homing (don't like - too aggressive) - 1.61mm
Topre Realforce HiPro (don't like - good depth but odd indentation profile) - 1.08mm
Topre Realforce HiPro Homing (don't like - too deep and odd indentation profile) - 1.62mm

In each case, I measured at a 45 degree angle across the 'G' key (unless otherwise noted) with the rear end of digital calipers, and sampled repeatedly until I got a stable measurement. The Alps dye subs are odd - the ASDF row is not flat, but tilted back somewhat.

I would prefer a flat Space bar row but can live with an angled one.

[photekq]

1u keys are 1mm~ deep, F/J are 1.75mm~ deep. Modifiers are more shallow. Same as (or very close to) 3278 keycaps. The shape of the scoops is modelled after the 3278 keycaps too; for longer keys that the 3278 doesn't possess I tried to make an estimation of how IBM would have done them by trying to follow the same aesthetic/scoop shape.

[Laser]

I think people got carried away, exactly because this is something unseen. So everyone wants it to be 'perfect', which, as taste, is infinitely debatable. But, as Matt3o says, since it doesn't come up from the thin air, what about "the minimum modifications" (or none) that will be sufficient for most? Let's also think that a) one can change the modifiers to something else, if they 'hurt' the hand or eye and b) there will be other rounds. I have a feeling if people are too critical now, *this* round will never get done ... (I also know people vote with their purse, so it's a thin line, but at least, let's try to stay on it!).

I also trust Matt3o's perfectionism ! From my point, minimum touches, if needed, and let's get the ball rolling!

BTW, previously posted picture from a more normal angle:

[XMIT]

1u keys are 1mm~ deep, F/J are 1.75mm~ deep...

Sounds great! I definitely want non-scooped F and J then, as an option. Looking forward to trying these on a Hall effect board in 2017!

[zslane]

Looking forward to trying these on a Hall effect board in 2017!

Me too.

If Matt3o can swing a flat bottom row (with flat spacebar), the way nature intended, and you can swing 70g springs on an ANSI-104 HE board with a normal-looking case, I think we may have the ultimate combination!

[livingspeedbump]

Flat bottom row would be nice, but definitely not a deal breaker for me.

[jacobolus]

For comfort, if anything the spacebar should be slightly *taller* than other keys. If it’s the same height as the bottom row that’s okay too. Definitely go for flat-ish (at the least no more tilted than the home row) across the bottom row, and consider making everything convex.

Of course, it would be much better still to make the spacebar 1.5u wide, so that the thumbs can press it from a more relaxed hand position. But obviously that’s infeasible if you want it to be compatible with existing ergonomically terrible keyboards.

Again, my preference is something like the black outline:

[Loligagger]

Personally I'd prefer a taller, sculpted bottom row (currently using SA 112344 profile). I'd be fine either way though. I'll pick up a set regardless, but would an ergodox addon be possible once these become available?

[evoman]

So here is a potentially naive question - how realistic is it to try to get a manufacturer to make a quasi generic keycap and a modular set of key adapters. I have seen the inserts that supposedly allow a Topre witch to accept an MX cap, but they don't appear to be top quality. If a large project was built around a modular design that could potentially fit MX, Topre and maybe ALPS then it could be a great way to tie them together (in terms of options). It seems like it would just be about finding the right cap mount that can connect to different adapters (perhaps Topre and MX is the only logical combination that could work given the switch designs though). Is this crazy?

p.s., I ask because this project is looking really nice, and I am thinking it could be a nice solution on several of my keyboards, only one of which has MX mounts (and I don't even know if I will use that keyboard much). thanks

[pomk]

It would likely be almost twice as expensive, as the number of parts to produce a key set is doubled. MX sliders will soon be available from JTK, I think that they are a better solution.