Model MF - GB CLOSED

[vsev]

Mmm, definitely in for Beamspring and solenoid controllers. Should give me the incentive to finish my refurb.

Count me in too for Beamspring and solenoid controlers !

[alh84001]

Before I blow this one ... can ANY Model-F flippers be used in this? I just only learned there are different versions of Model-F flippers, varying in details only.

Yep, I can confirm. Actually in my current (incomplete) FSSK build* I have a mix of all three, so it doesn't even matter to xwhatsit's controller with regards to voltage thresholds. But make sure to use the right barrels.

*After the fact that it is stuck in a cut regular model M case and that it has capacitive PCB inside M assembly, poor thing couldn't even catch a break there and it's in full-on identity crisis mode . I love the mutt, though

[Wodan]

Yes, the F flippers are intechangeable, no issues. The differences are minor.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear. Just thought I heard about Model F AT flippers in particular in some situations and got worried

But make sure to use the right barrels.

Ahh ... what are the right barrels?

I have tons of Bigfoot-parts ...

[Khers]

The plate is made to accept both types of barrels, so you should be fine

[chzel]

There are 2 kinds of barrels, one with a locating pin (XT style) and one with a locating nub (AT style)

[Wodan]

Oh well good thing I learned this today before starting to sell single-barrel foam mats for IBM Model Fs

[lot_lizard]

Actually... I'm very glad you brought up this XT vs. AT barrel conversation. I meant to mention this IONS ago in the workshop thread, and just searched... never did. The only place where the XT barrels are less than desirable are for the switches with horizontal stabilizers. Where the wire slips into the stabilizer clips (spacebar for everyone and older keycaps from say an F122 for others). The XT barrel lock (the peg) will impede getting the wire in place by ~1/16 of a inch. Don't sweat anything yet... keep reading.

There are four options:

• file the very top of the XT peg stabilizer by ~1/16 inch
• use WCass's washer trick to act as the stabilizer instead of the integrated nylon clips (they pop out)
• just pop the stabilizer clips out and back in with the wire past the XT peg (what I would do). The new version I have made of these pop in and out nicely. I have taken the ones for the spacebar in/out at least 15 times, and there is no sign that the nylon is wearing prematurely. I will be including some extras in the "spare part pack" anyway though
• use AT barrels anywhere that this would present an issue and avoid it altogether

For everyone that is ordering enough switches for a complete "kit", I will make sure there are at least enough AT barrels there to account for every switch where this could present a problem. As part of the assembly guide we are putting together, there will be a color-coded map from the back side that shows you where these need to go as you assemble. The guide will also include where you need to put your flippers so you don't get everything assembled and realize you dorked up (we all have if you have re-assembled enough).

Again, this is only an issue if you are using keys with horizontal wire stabilizers. We all will be for the spacebar. As mentioned before by others, the flippers themselves can be mixed and matched without performance issues. I already have them separated though, and will make sure you get matching flipper paddles throughout (it just looks nicer before you assemble ). For those of you getting XT barrels in the kits, I will make sure they are ALL XT other than the points mentioned above for appearance reasons. The XT is technically a more accurate lock (the peg) since the distance of the lock is further away from the centerpoint of the barrel itself (point of rotation). The AT would be less accurate, but stronger since it is bonded to the barrel. In reality, the advantages/disadvantages are academic though if everything is produced properly. For the personal boards that I keep out of all this (and the Limited Edition stainless), I will be using the XT/AT mixture described above. A majority of you will be getting all AT barrels though.

Moral, there is no bad option here, and we will make sure the kits provided look as coordinated as possible while not sacrificing function. Sorry for the long-winded post, but thought that should be explained in detail in one spot (especially for those of you supplying your own barrels). I will make another post shortly about final testing and production progress.

[Nuum]

Good thing I have a dead Model F AT around, I can steal some of its barrels.
Since I currently don't own an SSK I though about placing my ordered FSSK in a fullsize case and maybe add something like a trackball or trackpad in the then empty numpad hole. Has anyone done this before or knows something like that that closely fits into there?

[andrewjoy]

If you have other keys on at least 2 other sides of the switch in question you can just snip off the XT pin and use it naked!

I have done it in 2 places on this 122F the h key HHHhhhHH ( yep that works ) and PF14 , and that works too.

[Phenix]

could you please say us where the Europe proxy lives so that we can roughly estimate shipping to our doors?

[Redmaus]

There a possibility for a second run? (sorry if this question has already been answered)

[Ir0n]

I currently don't own an SSK I though about placing my ordered FSSK in a fullsize case and maybe add something like a trackball or trackpad in the then empty numpad hole. Has anyone done this before or knows something like that that closely fits into there?

A trackpad sounds amazing.

You could put a raspberry pi in it and cover it up..drill holes for ports then you'd have a back up linux computer in your keyboard. :p

[Techno Trousers]

There a possibility for a second run? (sorry if this question has already been answered)

Lot_lizard had said no. After this first GB, it will be on to aftermarket SSK and full size cases, then something totally new: flat plate capacitive buckling spring, plus MX mount key cap adapters..

[lot_lizard]

could you please say us where the Europe proxy lives so that we can roughly estimate shipping to our doors?

The shipping proxy would be in Germany. I am finally getting my head completely around the shipping information from all of the orders to know the exact quantities we were really talking about (ie... one or two pallets). The idea is to ship all of this to the proxy with an "allowance" to forward on to all of you. So Phenix, instead of you paying actual shipping, we would just charge everyone in Europe a flat shipping fee. Some of you will benefit more than others. $40 was the goal ($15 in the states). We might bump that up $2.50 for everyone to have a safer buffer (the states as well to help our brethren). So to rephrase... the $40 for Euro shipping wasn't just to get it to the Euro proxy. It is to have it arrive at your doorstep. $42.50 - $45 is more likely after additional research (been on the phone with the shipping docks today) given what I am expecting the quantities to actually be in the end.

There a possibility for a second run? (sorry if this question has already been answered)

It's just too much to mess with is the real reason. I am hoping everyone that would benefit (or at least like to try) hops in now and we can move on to something new and fun in the future. The only way I would ever even consider doing again was if the margins were MUCH higher, and then it would feel like work... which the is opposite of what I want it to be about for myself. Someone else could run with the plans though. They will be published. It just won't be me though

[E TwentyNine]

It's just too much to mess with is the real reason. I am hoping everyone that would benefit (or at least like to try) hops in now and we can move on to something new and fun in the future.

Got it. Next up the BM-15: The M-15 beam spring edition.

May want to reconsider the name tho.

[seebart]

Next up the BM-15: The M-15 beam spring edition.

[ohaimark]

I think it would be best if we shortened it to B-15 (an experimental large bomber) and went with a classy, non-stenciled military look a la WWII airplane nose art.





It was hard to find nose art that wasn't erotica.

[Phenix]

thanks for pointing that out, lot_lizard!
(and like you mentioned earlier 3-4 unassembled ones, OR 2 assembled+1 unassembled ones can fit in an box)

[lot_lizard]

thanks for pointing that out, lot_lizard!
(and like you mentioned earlier 3-4 unassembled ones, OR 2 assembled+1 unassembled ones can fit in an box)

I am becoming more and more confident of that statement. I used existing plates and played around some. Certainly if you didn't care about the "model M" support brackets in there, or I temporarily removed the staples for them and laid flat... you could fit even quite a bit more.

[lot_lizard]

Last update and I will stop bombing (B-15... bad pun).

• Shipping rates are finalized, and should be considered flat rate to your door if in the CONUS or Europe. For others outside of these zones, I will continue to research your best avenue. I needed to see the actual numbers and locations before declaring these. We were very close with original estimates (SURPRISING).
  • US - $17.50 (we were $15, but call it a $2.50 tax to help our European friends)
  • Canada - $25 (was clumped in with the International (non-US). There are enough of you though that it isn't fair)
  • Euro zone - $42.50 (was $40 to your doorstep, but we needed $5 extra each. Thank your US friends for half)
• New PCBs have been produced, and are in the mail. These are the updated versions of what WCass drew from i$'s original design. The modifications were:
  • split space-bar key layout (standard on every, but optional in practice)
  • significantly reduced the number of through holes required by the Model M bolt-mod in the original, which in turn simplified the trace routes
  • added our new slip-on connection to the mini-xWhatsit
• Phosphorglow has completed assembling all of our controllers and daughter boards, just needs to ship
• my powder coating friends will run my Beamspring plates by Friday. This will let me know the changes in tolerance to our cutouts, and adjust accordingly. We will have one more Full-Size set of plates produced with the tolerance revisions. NOTE: the new design based on the revised MF PCB is much more ideal on the top ridge (makes me happy... and much more like I would have done from scratch from the beginning ). I will release renderings once I validate it against with the PCB's that are now in shipment

[Redmaus]

Hey, how do you guys think the feel and build quality of this board will compare to the FSSK?

It's just too much to mess with is the real reason. I am hoping everyone that would benefit (or at least like to try) hops in now and we can move on to something new and fun in the future. The only way I would ever even consider doing again was if the margins were MUCH higher, and then it would feel like work... which the is opposite of what I want it to be about for myself. Someone else could run with the plans though. They will be published. It just won't be me though

Fair enough, new projects sound like a good idea. Guess i'll have to fork up the money sooner rather than later...

[alh84001]

Hey, how do you guys think the feel and build quality of this board will compare to the FSSK

Well, FSSK is just the PCB, which you put into M assembly. This project will have the (updated) FSSK PCB in a metal assembly, so concerning build quality, it should be like comparing (bolt-modded) model M with a model F.

[lot_lizard]

My powder coating friends called, and I ran down to grab the sample I gave them. This is from a rusted beamspring (NOT our MF), but gives me a really good idea of cutout tolerance changes and consistency of application. They did a nice job. I have updated our plans for the full-size to account for cutout changes, and will get to them this week. Might take a week or two to get back. They know our timeline, and I have asked they just work into their typical production line when the timing is appropriate. Thought you might enjoy seeing our red though. Forgive the lighting, it is still dark here and taken from my desk. The desk is white for reference.

For the final full-size prototype, I will likely do the blue to validate it matches the requested swatch (or very close), and will have the backplate hot dipped in yellow zinc (Chromate). That is up the road a bit, but I want to visit them again anyway before hand. I want to know if raw comes out as I expect, or it I should hit the plates with my sandblaster to get a more consistent (but satin) finish.

FullSizeRender.jpg (1.68 MiB) Viewed 10404 times

EDIT: corrected spelling (I suck lately )

[ohaimark]

HNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG that will look so good with the Lexmark logo.

[lot_lizard]

Hey, how do you guys think the feel and build quality of this board will compare to the FSSK

Well, FSSK is just the PCB, which you put into M assembly. This project will have the (updated) FSSK PCB in a metal assembly, so concerning build quality, it should be like comparing (bolt-modded) model M with a model F.

As far a build quality itself, it really isn't comparable... but I realize I am the only one that has seen or felt any parts of this beyond the FSSK/FEXT (so take everything with a grain of salt). Having said that, I would rather set expectations low and over-deliver vs. having people upset. We really are operating on a thin margin here (has the potential to lose money for me if certain parts are correctly produced but incorrectly designed), but I am also trying to avoid refunding anyone with our "profits". I know that seems odd, but I really don't want to claim ANY of this on my taxes. They are already complicated enough , and this will be several thousands of dollars that need to be accounted for by Uncle Sam. Any net profit would either be refunded, or donated to our club.

My honest review would be this... as alh84001 said, they are really different animals. BUT one bit he left out... the FSSK has the same flippers we do, which makes a MASSIVE difference. If you were looking at change from an M to an F, the flippers and PCB alone is easily 70-80%. The 20-30% are the plates/barrels/foam. The quality of the F barrels and quality of the plastic as compared to the M barrel plate are very different. F's are a much "harder" plastic. Couple that with the fact that you are isolating the barrels from each other (they are independent), added foam to deaden ambient vibrations from each other and the top plate, and added a 18 gauge steel plate... it's just a different animal altogether really (at least for us that are picky). If I dropped both in front of my wife, I doubt she would notice a tremendous difference, but she is also a rubber dome fan. Both (the MF and FSSK) have the same moving parts which are VERY different than the M.

We, really has been collective feedback of thoughts and ideas, have made lots of incremental improvements along the way that continue to improve the F's design (teflon coatings, improved foam, etc.), and we have branded the end result to be something to me that feels like a real "product". There are touches that will be different in the assembly that shows up to your door than what you are seen so far (I am saving all of the propaganda touches as surprises).

But again... to the root of your question... i$'s FSSK made as arguably as big of a leap from an M to an F as we are going to do on top of his design if you already have one. The build-quality isn't close, but the difference in feel from the original FSSK would be at least COMPARABLE to what we have here if you are basing the original M as the baseline. The improvements are really around product consistency and several incremental improvements that together net an improved experience. Sorry that was winded (again), but hope that helps...

[ohaimark]

Will you put the Teflon coating on barrels that you send out in unassembled kits?

[lot_lizard]

Will you put the Teflon coating on barrels that you send out in unassembled kits?

Right... they are all getting a good soak.


EDIT: Also... I can confirm the Code keys we are slated to receive. They are currently in the mail (assuming they have any idea what I actually was requesting in the first place )

[ohaimark]

Great! Your attention to detail is appreciated.

[Wodan]

Paiiiiiid!

[Techno Trousers]

I paid too... Ka-ching!! No need for presents, kids, daddy is buying his own gifts this year!