Model MF - GB CLOSED

[Wodan]

CNC'd SSK case à la KMAC? Count me in.

DROOL'O'MATIC!!!!

CNC is my sick fetish

[lot_lizard]

Okay, okay - I'll hold my breath...

Haven't ever announced anything formally because I want to see what Phosphorglow comes up with on his cast resin end, but the 5251 replacement case thread is much further along now. Waiting to post there with substance versus just dangling bits. I can say this though, derzemel mentioned "walking the cup" with welds. Whoever did that is either literally a robot or a welding god, and I would be shocked if that was a machine. I'm decent though... lots of practice.

We will likely make a few attempts at this to be honest. We will start a poll sometime in the MF workshop thread to get a real idea of interest at given cost thresholds. CNC makes the most sense for the SSK if we can get some REAL interest, otherwise it is more "artistic". The beamspring case will almost certainly be by hand, but at the same time... the plan is to make base parts that can be cut down for several different beamspring models (quite of few of them suffer from the "great white" syndrome), and weld/assemble the reduced parts for a given model.

[chzel]

[I can say this though, derzemel mentioned "walking the cup" with welds. Whoever did that is either literally a robot or a welding god, and I would be shocked if that was a machine. I'm decent though... lots of practice.

Jigs go a long way towards repeatabilty! Have a look after approximately the 3:00 mark:

[lot_lizard]

Jigs go a long way towards repeatabilty!

true... Love the video with full stats btw. When I glanced at derzemels photo, I only noticed the left side (irregular bend). I'm sure the right side is as you say (slow lathed with some pulsed torch). Regardless... That bead is heavenly (both his and yours). Im maybe 50% as good by hand, but can only puddle with pattern... I have never tried pulsing by hand (at least not like that). Mine still looks "production", but to have a bead come out in either that video or picture is REAL artistry. To rephrase... If you are wanting that look, we need to hire it out . If you are wanting something "typical" or better, I can handle.

But again, if we can get numbers for the SSK, there is zero reason it couldn't be machined (CNC'd). I have a metal lathe, but can't "down press". I really am in love with the Planet 6 after watching the video in the DTA's. Most see the result (which is amazing), but the steps he took to make it happen are exceptional.

[lot_lizard]

So... the dyeing of the novelty caps. I will happily admit, I am not even a novice at the moment. It is the one component left in all of this where we are not relying on a manufacturer, that I am not VERY comfortable doing myself. I have the etching of the logo covered, but need help either dying, or at least REAL tips I can't find online to make sure these dye wonderfully. Volunteers for either are appreciated. If not, I will certainly take a stab, and we won't package anything up until it's golden... but I would like to make the first attempt successful out of the gate (6 colors total).

[fohat]

the dyeing of the novelty caps.

It is the one component left in all of this where we are not relying on a manufacturer, that I am not VERY comfortable doing myself.

or at least REAL tips I can't find online to make sure these dye wonderfully.

I have done a moderate amount of dyeing and my results have been "mixed" at best. I have had good successes, but not solid consistency or dependability.

Lot_Lizard, the black set that I sent you a few weeks ago was probably my single best most consistent effort to date.

I have kept going back to this, especially reply #14

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35 ... #msg664178

[lot_lizard]

the black set that I sent you a few weeks ago was probably my single best most consistent effort to date.

I have kept going back to this, especially reply #14

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35 ... #msg664178

i think those (what you sent me for our other project) turned out brilliant. I will give it a go based on insight and report back.

[Muramasa]

Got the invoice sent to the other half and I didn't realise what lot lizard meant. Definitely needed to explain that one

[lot_lizard]

hahaha... ouch. This is where Wodan's avatar/slogan comes to mind.

EDIT: to steal a silly post for an actual update. We are 99% invoiced. Only i$ (irony) remains, but I know what he will be getting already. Only 5 unpaid invoices remain. This has been a really pleasant process (much better than I expected). Just wanted to say thanks. The rest is on me and our producers. It will be a fun winter break (holiday) from work in the coming weeks.

[fohat]

Got the invoice sent to the other half and I didn't realise what lot lizard meant. Definitely needed to explain that one

I recommend, on a regular basis, that people update their Paypal info.

Whatever Paypal sends out always goes to your "official" registered account and address.

And when you move, be sure to change your address before you order anything!

[Techno Trousers]

I recommend, on a regular basis, that people update their Paypal info.

Whatever Paypal sends out always goes to your "official" registered account and address.

And when you move, be sure to change your address before you order anything!

I can confirm this. I had a friend who found an awesome deal on an M13 and jumped on it. Turns out he'd recently moved, the keyboard went to his former address, and I don't think he ever got the keyboard. Ouch.

[lot_lizard]

I recommend, on a regular basis, that people update their Paypal info.

Whatever Paypal sends out always goes to your "official" registered account and address.

And when you move, be sure to change your address before you order anything!

I can confirm this. I had a friend who found an awesome deal on an M13 and jumped on it. Turns out he'd recently moved, the keyboard went to his former address, and I don't think he ever got the keyboard. Ouch.

FYI... I will clarify this with everyone before we slap shipping labels on anything. There are a couple of more questions that I want to ask along the way. If assembled on your behalf, the map of the exact layout you are expecting... etc. Having all of it up front was a bit daunting for both me and everyone I think. I will send these queries out as PMs (expect say 3-4 over the course of a month).

[lot_lizard]

Just some quick updates:

• the replacement springs have been "ordered" using our modified lighter spec (on paper, recalculated from scratch multiple times, it makes perfect sense). I sent 10 original F springs to our supplier, and their engineers have been asked to validate my math. To reach our pricing, they are working us in "as schedule allows", but with a guarantee to deliver in 30 days. I wanted their clock started first
• vinyl stickers have been ordered. All the tribute stickers are "high def vinyl". The stickers for the backplate (Techno label) noting the serial number, etc, will be printed by me on a color laser printer on paper so you can write on them easily (was b/w until webwit opened his mouth about RGB dots )
• Phosphorglow is mailing the new controller. This bit is a bottleneck in production because I need to verify how these connectors work out. I have faith in the connection quality, but in the SSK, we are tight at the back of that case (there is a support extrusion in the shell PVC)... Everything will be thoroughly tested before visiting our plate producers, and WCass gave me some nice tolerance to shift the PCB towards the front if needed... But I want to be 100% certain
• I'm about 1/2 way through the retainer clip production for the USB-B using my printer, and have ordered the dyes for all. In theory I should be able to able use RGB ratios of intended colors to achieve very close to matching dye results. I don't see any qualities in the polyester filament that would make me think otherwise. Obviously I will test and pass judgement here before doing in bulk. When Phosphorglow sends me the new xWhatsit, he is sending all of the USB prototype daughter boards. Then I will print the other specs. I have the mesh CAD for the already, but want to see if we should raise a couple of the boards themselves with retainer clip "risers" since they are SO small, and would set on the edge of the opening. They would work fine regardless, but could look silly if not lifted

I am out of town at a corporate holiday party (rephrase... a LOT of unnecessary "back-patting") through the weekend. I plan to start the switch cleaning next week.

Also... Please everyone either hold Phosphorglow in tremendous regard. He is amazing, has provided SO much help/thoughts along the way via PMs, but it's a bit of an unsung contributor in all of this. He is certainly a busy man.

[Techno Trousers]

That's a great update! So much going on. Thanks again to Phosphorglow!

[elecplus]

If you need key caps for the MF, I can provide 101 winkeyless sets uncleaned for $30 each, not including space bars. The M and F take different wires for the space bars. Please note that I have about a 50 pound sack of keycaps, from MANY different types of boards. I will try to pick and choose sets that are similar in font color and weight, but I can't promise that they will be exact. Set will probably be 2-piece caps, with the stems included. Send me a PM, or add to @Andrewjoy mini EU gb if you are overseas. group-buys-f50/electronics-plus-mini-eu ... 54-30.html

[POTV]

Regarding cases... has there been any discussion about the effect of a sound dampening layer on the inside, both metal and resin cases? I think it could be of some benefit. And there´s also the dimensions of the case. In a loudspeaker cabinet of higher quality, the internal sides are most often not parallel in order to avoid the sound waves jumping back and forth.

Finally, regarding the costs of manufacturing: There should be a market for new cases if opened up to Geekhack. Quite a lot of IBM owners could be interested in pimping their old board. (But please keep the external dimensions almost the same and not bigger, if possible)

[DMA]

In a loudspeaker cabinet of higher quality, the internal sides are most often not parallel in order to avoid the sound waves jumping back and forth.

They just can't cut straight. All that "manual assembly" comes at a price.
Also they made those from the shittiest laminated OSB they can find! Those bastards just cutting costs!
(I know that shitty OSB is excellent sound damper. But I also know that the best material for the sound box is marble - but it costs so much no one produces such loudspeakers commercially. So, while being sarcastic..)

There should be a market for new cases if opened up to Geekhack. Quite a lot of IBM owners could be interested in pimping their old board.

That one actually interests me a lot. How large is that market? How many units, realistically?
I have an impression it's not even a thousand.

[drevyek]

There should be a market for new cases if opened up to Geekhack. Quite a lot of IBM owners could be interested in pimping their old board.

That one actually interests me a lot. How large is that market? How many units, realistically?
I have an impression it's not even a thousand.

It all depends on price and value proposition. A big ol' hunk of aluminum won't have the same market as a resin cast- the price disparity is too great. A new M case needs to be somehow "better" than the current PVC case, which isn't easy. IBM did a pretty good job with them.

I'd say the main areas of improvement for the M/SSK cases are in:

• Availability (important for the SSK)
• Form-factor/reduced footprint
• Colours
• Sound-damping (or similar specific features)
• Materials (Aluminum, wooden, etc)

For some of these aren't really improvements as much as alterations- I'm totally happy with the colour and large footprint of my cut-down M, but would prefer to have a bit more sound damping built into the case. Determining what the market actually wants is vital- both here, GH and reddit. There are a lot of people with Model M's or Unicomps, though maybe not 1000, no.

There is also the market of those who want an SSK case, but not have to go and buy the whole thing (like me). My current option is to cut down M cases, which is exactly what I've done, but it's messy.
If anything, this buy has now a number of people with either spare SSK internals, or need a new SSK case.

[Phenix]

I just want to add:
New SSK cases are also interesting to those who want an high-quality case (metal or wood) and will just cut down M internals, as chopping an case is (at least for me) not that easy, and will most likely not look that awesome
(it can be done, no question - but its quite hard to alling/glue properly)

[DMA]

Thanks for "demand flexibility" chapter from economy 101

There are a lot of people with Model M's or Unicomps, though maybe not 1000, no.

Thought so.
So, tooling will still be the largest part of it, no other way around.

[emdude]

A poll would be appropriate in gauging interest in various designs for new cases. At least in the case of the SSK, I think the case's form factor is already perfect as-is and would probably be more interested in a metal, powder-coated replica of it than anything else. I feel it would be a safe choice too.

Although.. if it were left entirely up to me, I'd make this a reality:

[fohat]

I think that there might be a sizable market for something cool like a drop-in aluminum case, and if the price was reasonable they would sell pretty well.

Plastic is plastic, but colors other than beige are in vogue nowadays.

After the "proof of concept" came through and there was a manufacturer, I would bet that Unicomp would gladly sell the things as a middleman with a reasonable and fair mark-up. They just don't want to have to develop and produce the things, while something like a factory in China does not have the name recognition and market presence that Unicomp does.

PS - I have tried twice to do a "faux-SSK" chop job and will not waste my time again

[DMA]

Unicomp has market presense?? It was quite hard to find them back when I wanted to find a good keyboard.

Also, making all the prototyping and manufacturing effort so Unicomp makes profit - well, just doesn't make much sense to me. It makes _some_ sense for the internal community projects, because it's a hobby, hobbies usually cost a lot of money and effort, but of all the world - unicomp? with their usually insane shipping prices? Why?

[fohat]

unicomp? with their usually insane shipping prices? Why?

Unicomp is an old-fashioned and staid company, with little drive to innovate, but they are the legitimate and world-recognized successor to IBM and the automatic go-to source for all (new) things buckling spring in the world today.

I have always found their shipping to be quite fair (if you send them a message they will almost always "re-calculate" shipping to something near the actual postage rate if it is not a complete keyboard or something heavy), especially within the US.

International shipping originating in the US has simply spiraled out of control in recent months/years but that is not the fault of Unicomp.
I recently sent a 3.2 oz (90 grams!) padded envelope to Europe and the minimum 1st class postage was $13.65.

And last, their customer service is exemplary. It seems an obvious choice to me.

[DMA]

and the automatic go-to source for all (new) things buckling spring in the world today.

That would be what? Keycaps with shitty and inconsistent prints, got it. What else? (btw why there's no spherical keycaps for BS?? Those injection molds - they do have a limited lifetime, they certainly had to manufacture new ones in those 20 years).

I recently sent a 3.2 oz (90 grams!) padded envelope to Europe and the minimum 1st class postage was $13.65.

Yeah, postal services are quite insane recently
Had to pay $80 for the passport sent RU->US. Sure it's 2 business days, but.. since it's suddenly "FREIGHT" not "documents" - it still in customs warehouse somewhere with unknown status.

[need]

and the automatic go-to source for all (new) things buckling spring in the world today.

That would be what? Keycaps with shitty and inconsistent prints, got it. What else?

Like... Model M keyboards?

[drevyek]

Plastic is plastic, but colors other than beige are in vogue nowadays.

Sounds like some heresy to me!

PS - I have tried twice to do a "faux-SSK" chop job and will not waste my time again

Mine's been great, turned out well. Used a hacksaw, but I wouldn't wish that on anyone- dremel is the way to go, followed by a good helping of sanding and filing. As long as the case is cut properly, it actually works out quite well. I'll be trying it again whenever I can get my hands on another full-sized (preferably a '1401).

If the cases were available, though, I would 100% not do it again. I'd chop internals again (, but the case was by far the hardest part to get right.

Unicomp would make sense, sure. But I just feel like they wouldn't be able (or desire) to really take up the mantle. The failed "Modern SSK" from a few years back made me think that they just want their tooling into the sunset, and not bother with anything new- let alone anything with any amount of risk.
I mean, I guess it wouldn't hurt to ask, or propose something. If they turn it down, we're back here. If they accept, it might help them along as a company, and encourage them to do something new. My only worry is that they might skimp on quality.

[POTV]

A few remarks on the interesting case discussion:

I could easily live with a replica of the SSK case. The primary thing I'm worried about, in a new case project, is an increased sound level.

Regarding the price for new cases, I really think it is a matter of mind set. If you are a watch enthusiast and like Rolex, the entry ticket costs around 5-7.000 USD. Now what's the problem with paying a few hundred USD for an aluminum keyboard case that lasts a lifetime and the internals are also repairable? Model MF should be worth the investment.

(I like Unicomp. I can get my language in keycaps and various colours in a decent quality and shipping is fair. Besides, Jeanne always responds to my questions in a few hours.)

[Scarpia]

A poll would be appropriate in gauging interest in various designs for new cases. At least in the case of the SSK, I think the case's form factor is already perfect as-is and would probably be more interested in a metal, powder-coated replica of it than anything else. I feel it would be a safe choice too.

Although.. if it were left entirely up to me, I'd make this a reality:

I agree, with one addition: Lock lights. Having them in the 'wells' below the keys works, but it is not as visible as visible LEDs, and it was always just a hack because the original SSK case doesn't have an obvious way to add them. If we were designing a new SSK case, that could change.

[lot_lizard]

The appreciation of everything we've accomplished so far really pushes designing proper cases up the priority for me. The goal of Phase 2 for me (hasn't started yet), was always to make a full "from scratch" artisan piece out of the capactive buckling spring.

Mixtures of metal and wood with a completely unique presentation while maintaining the proper M height and pitch. After seeing Kurplop's Planet 6, I think I would like to see if he wants to join our team. Seeing his stunning craftsmanship, I think together with everyone's direction... We could build something remarkable for these MF phase 1 kits.

I'm not sure everyone watched his build video, but he did this by hand. I have much of the same equipment (variance in models) in the video, and I can't say enough how impressed I was by his ingenuity and talent (real skill). I have no idea what he'll say, but I am at least going to extend the invitation.