Model MF - GB CLOSED

Pick our controller... Voting ends on Friday

The mini-xWhatsit that WCass shrunk down. It uses the same mini-controller design as Ellipse's F62/77, but with a connector meant to slip onto our PCB (inverted running parallel to the backplate)
19
31%
The CommonSense that DMA has recently put together. This is young yet, but has the most long term promise (not a question). It will have a very similar connector (possibly perpendicular vs. parallel slip-on mount)
43
69%
 
Total votes: 62

User avatar
lot_lizard

22 Dec 2016, 12:57

Muirium wrote:
lot_lizard wrote: Also, as a reminder, all unused holes in the top plate can be covered by 19mm sheet metal plugs
Speaking of which: can I have some? And how easy are they to install / remove? Just in case I get ideas someday…
They are not too difficult to install (15-25 lbs of pressure), but I am going to preinstall those for folks if they like. I had a small number of other questions I didn't want to overwhelm people with when filling out the initial forms if it didn't impact parts quantities. Regardless, there will be approx. 10 of these (5 in your spare parts bag), and they are typically reusable.


The plugs have been ordered btw. I don't think I unannounced that one yet.

EDIT: tested one of my existing 1/2" ones. Was 18 pounds of pressure. Corrected the above. Point being you don't need to be one of the Avengers to work with them.

User avatar
lot_lizard

22 Dec 2016, 22:41

Excellent news and less ideal news. Great news first. I have a our xWhatsit controllers back from Phosphorglow and they look great. I really appreciate him taking the time to do those for us (2 total... duplicates).

Less ideal news... The slip on connectors I had shipped directly to him must not have ever made it. That is the "easy" part to solder, so I am going to order more now, and take a stab at them myself. I ordered them moments ago. They claim to be in stock, so we should receive those in a few days.

For reference, these are the two connectors:Again, the fit needs to be tested for this new controller to KNOW if the top plate, PCB, foam, and fastener adjustments are sound. Once they are, I will post all of the renders. I will know once I receive the connectors (even before soldering) if the fit is ideal btw... allowing us to proceed with portions of the order. The PCB and controllers will be the last thing we purchase (want as much test time as possible on the prototypes).

User avatar
lot_lizard

22 Dec 2016, 23:03

Back on the idollar avatar front for this silly little sticker... what are thoughts of just something UBER basic. Overlapping $ and i (elongated) in Helvetica font with basic shading? I will PM him later to see if he approves. I would like him to be on the sticker for the team. It is odd I understand that we are making an avatar for another user btw. He is just tied up, and I need things moving to get this stuff mostly wrapped up over my holiday break. Suggestions very welcome
idollar.PNG
idollar.PNG (4.46 KiB) Viewed 5884 times

User avatar
E TwentyNine

22 Dec 2016, 23:14

That is exactly what I was thinking but didn't have the skill to mock up. That shiny-gold 3D dollar sign, but with the line as an i.

User avatar
tentator

22 Dec 2016, 23:18

uhm.. err.. why don't you send him also my proposal? :) I can make it bigger if needed.. or maybe with some even more grungy terminal font?
Spoiler:
i$.png
i$.png (813 Bytes) Viewed 5857 times
one question about the foam: the foam is supposed to stay between pcb and back plate or between the flippers and the pcb??

I made a curious experiment with my frankenstein work here and a model m thin foam between flippers and pcb and somehow it sounds not so nice imho.. it looses some of the F to go into the M sound.. I know the foam is super thin and ugly, but do not remember where is the positioning that is supposed..
Spoiler:
photo109275380194586268-foam.jpg
photo109275380194586268-foam.jpg (44.5 KiB) Viewed 5857 times
and by the way thanks again to i$ for his fext nr 2 :)
Spoiler:
photo109275380194586256.jpg
photo109275380194586256.jpg (9.59 KiB) Viewed 5857 times
another option could be I take a close foto of his own written i$ written with the marker on red???


tent:wq

User avatar
lot_lizard

22 Dec 2016, 23:28

tentator wrote: uhm.. err.. why don't you send him also my proposal? :) I can make it bigger if needed.. or maybe with some even more grungy terminal font?
I'm going to send him all the ones we came up with and say "pick or make your own QUICKLY" :)
tentator wrote: one question about the foam: the foam is supposed to stay between pcb and back plate or between the flippers and the pcb??

I made a curious experiment with my frankenstein work here and a model m thin foam between flippers and pcb and somehow it sounds not so nice imho.. it looses some of the F to go into the M sound.. I know the foam is super thin and ugly, but do not remember where is the positioning that is supposed..
For the FSSK/FEXT, there was no foam... or if you did add a thin layer, it would be under the PCB. For the MF project, it is like a traditional F foam and sits between the independent barrels and the top plate. I also have a VERY thin layer of latex that is currently sitting under the PCB in one of the prototypes. Once we get the final set of plates in, I will test the foam layers one more time before making a decision. The change is very subtle mind you, so we might save a step and avoid the undermat (just use our modern spin on the traditional foam layer).


I have experimented with it for many hours now on the past several weeks, and we want it to be as good as we can make it without over architecting. We are very close... Just needs testing with the final plates (which need to wait until the controller can be fitted)

User avatar
tentator

22 Dec 2016, 23:33

I see, very interesting. But so you didn't experiment with layer between flipper and pcb (I suppose the key will still register without issues if there is a thin layer between flipper and pcb), asking actually because of how it would "sound".. I mean to me it sounds a bit more silent but also a bit more "plasticky" and less "metallic" as it normally sounds when the flipper hits the pcb.. also ringing is attenuated.. but still in the end prefer the traditional f sound.. of course here I could only test it with a model m (platicky) barrelplate :)

User avatar
lot_lizard

22 Dec 2016, 23:42

E TwentyNine wrote: That is exactly what I was thinking but didn't have the skill to mock up. That shiny-gold 3D dollar sign, but with the line as an i.
The following is crude and thrown together with little cleanup, but you are saying something similar to the following?
idollar.jpeg
idollar.jpeg (24.32 KiB) Viewed 5819 times

User avatar
E TwentyNine

22 Dec 2016, 23:43

lot_lizard wrote:
E TwentyNine wrote: That is exactly what I was thinking but didn't have the skill to mock up. That shiny-gold 3D dollar sign, but with the line as an i.
The following is crude and thrown together with little cleanup, but you are saying something similar to the following?
idollar.jpeg
I was thinking a square dot, but pretty much, yeah, that's it.

User avatar
lot_lizard

24 Dec 2016, 02:36

Received our connectors from Digikey today (shocked considering I didn't pay for expedited shipping). I can confirm our adjustments (as far as fit) were spot on. Thanks again WCass. This connector is perfect, and all my adjustments to the plates themselves were ideal as well.

Starting next week, we will purchase everything besides the controller and PCB. I want to test these two little devils for a couple of weeks while other components are being produced. We will do ONE more round of the plates as prototypes to test the final of everything before ordering them in bulk (the expensive part).

User avatar
Techno Trousers
100,000,000 actuations

24 Dec 2016, 02:52

Fantastic news! Thanks again, wcass!!

User avatar
drevyek

24 Dec 2016, 11:10

lot_lizard wrote: Received our connectors from Digikey today (shocked considering I didn't pay for expedited shipping).

Digikey is awesome. Very responsive, especially when buying bulk.
Starting next week, we will purchase everything besides the controller and PCB. I want to test these two little devils for a couple of weeks while other components are being produced. We will do ONE more round of the plates as prototypes to test the final of everything before ordering them in bulk (the expensive part).
Great to hear! What are you testing with the plates that is different from previous variations?

User avatar
lot_lizard

24 Dec 2016, 14:50

drevyek wrote: What are you testing with the plates that is different from previous variations?
the metal plates we have produced thus far were for the original FSSK/FEXT PCB and legacy F xWhatsit controller. The new PCB has our split spacebar, slip on connector, and modified tension screw hole locations with grounding. We just need to KNOW it works as well or better than what I currently have in hand.

User avatar
lot_lizard

24 Dec 2016, 23:13

For those of you that celebrate Christmas... Merry Christmas!!!

Regardless... Warm wishes to you and your family, and a Happy New Year

giokkk

25 Dec 2016, 12:24

lot_lizard wrote: For those of you that celebrate Christmas... Merry Christmas!!!

Regardless... Warm wishes to you and your family, and a Happy New Year
Merry Christmas to you Brad and to all the guys of Deskthority!! :) :) :)
Attachments
Merry Christmas.jpg
Merry Christmas.jpg (145.84 KiB) Viewed 5670 times

User avatar
lot_lizard

28 Dec 2016, 22:12

Sorry for the delay on updates everyone. We have been making some nice progress, but I haven't been able to get to the PC much with the holidays to post. I am putting together a progress "table" that I will add to the 3rd post so everyone has a nice place to go for a complete picture of timeframe for all parts and configurations.

I am happy to report though that our only known inhibitor (the controllers) are now ready for full testing. Thought you would appreciate some pics. The connector is a dream btw... So happy we decided to take that approach.
"Twin" brothers ready to do some heavy lifting
"Twin" brothers ready to do some heavy lifting
IMG_0211.JPG (621.66 KiB) Viewed 5579 times
mini xWhatsit from the front
mini xWhatsit from the front
IMG_0212.JPG (944.85 KiB) Viewed 5579 times
View of the slip-on connector profiles from the back
View of the slip-on connector profiles from the back
IMG_0214.JPG (878.78 KiB) Viewed 5579 times
Test fit on both the SSK and Full-Size
Test fit on both the SSK and Full-Size
IMG_0216.JPG (1.65 MiB) Viewed 5579 times
Last edited by lot_lizard on 28 Dec 2016, 22:18, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mike52787
Alps Aficionado

28 Dec 2016, 22:14

Dont be sorry! this GB is moving faster than most other GBs, and is about 10x more complicated.

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

29 Dec 2016, 00:10

agreed

User avatar
tentator

29 Dec 2016, 12:58

looks lovely!!!

User avatar
Ir0n

29 Dec 2016, 13:04

._. I should have got a spare controller..

This group buy is going so smooth..I can't wait to try those new springs out.

User avatar
livingspeedbump
Not what they seem

29 Dec 2016, 15:50

lot_lizard wrote: Sorry for the delay on updates everyone.
What? I don't think I've ever been in a group buy this this many/this frequency of updates. ;)

The progress and controller do look great though!

User avatar
derzemel

29 Dec 2016, 16:11

livingspeedbump wrote:
lot_lizard wrote: Sorry for the delay on updates everyone.
What? I don't think I've ever been in a group buy this this many/this frequency of updates. ;)

The progress and controller do look great though!
yeah... a few weeks ago I had to mute the notifications for this thread for a few days as it was driving me crazy :lol:

Lot_lizard was giving updates and answering questions like he had Duracell batteries in his pants :lol:

User avatar
Muirium
µ

29 Dec 2016, 16:40

Notifications!???!???!!?? Are you insane, man!

I'll hotly anticipate mine while checking in from time to time with an appropriate beverage and a grin. We've got good people on this project. And spectating this much work is especially fun.

User avatar
lot_lizard

30 Dec 2016, 16:27

Doing some testing today against the SSK plates to validate the new controller and PCB. I should feel comfortable enough with the designs to make a call to the metal fabrication folks to produce a "final" set of protoype plates on Monday. After they are through, I will take them to our finishers (powdercoat and Chromate) to make a full test run through this process.

Everything is assembled and functional at this point. Just need to hook up the USB and take it for a test drive. I'm not going to be able to tension the center screws since we shifted our holes around in the new design. Keep in mind these tension screws really only provide mild adjustments. It is consistent and audibly nice without them. We just had room, so why not.

The following are some pics so you can see the controller and PCB changes. WCass bought us some nice room along the top ridge of the assembly that I can take advantage of. I made my adjustments as he was making his, but need to take a lot of measurements to validate before publishing the renders. One thing he did was keep the top of the PCB inside the assembly, which enables me to make mild tweaks to screw placement without bothering him about through hole adjustments. Our new top ridge on the plates are much more ideal in the redesign (again, renders to come)
Previous top edge of the FSSK
Previous top edge of the FSSK
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New top edge of the MF SSK
New top edge of the MF SSK
IMG_0225.JPG (683.88 KiB) Viewed 5453 times
Hard photo to take, but the room under the assembly with controller attached.
Hard photo to take, but the room under the assembly with controller attached.
IMG_0227.JPG (946.78 KiB) Viewed 5453 times
Another underneath shot that hopefully gives depth when combined with the previous
Another underneath shot that hopefully gives depth when combined with the previous
IMG_0226.JPG (1.47 MiB) Viewed 5453 times

User avatar
chzel

30 Dec 2016, 16:33

Nice! Maybe now we can fit a large enough battery inside to go BT and make Mu happy!

User avatar
E TwentyNine

30 Dec 2016, 16:36

Nice. Is there anything supporting the bottom of the controller?

User avatar
lot_lizard

30 Dec 2016, 16:48

chzel wrote: Nice! Maybe now we can fit a large enough battery inside to go BT and make Mu happy!
It really did buy "gobs" (technical term) of room. The neat bit about this modular daughter board for USB, the BT integration can occur there as a replacement board in the future without smurfing with the xWhatsit.


One thing I have been meaning to point out, and maybe some of you have already noticed... The tension screws that separate the F-keys are different now. They are grounded. The two in the center I actually do need (by the controller) to keep proper tension on F5-8, but the two on either side have no real value. So... we are going to add two tapped screw holes TO THE BACK PLATE ONLY. Then we will add two ground screws that secure the PCB to the back plate before assembly. This will REALLY help us out with any grounding considerations, and will also make the assembly process easier since the PCB will always be lined up.
Ground screws securing to the back plate on the 1st and 4th holes above
Ground screws securing to the back plate on the 1st and 4th holes above
IMG_0228.JPG (839.87 KiB) Viewed 5405 times
Last edited by lot_lizard on 30 Dec 2016, 17:05, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
lot_lizard

30 Dec 2016, 17:02

E TwentyNine wrote: Nice. Is there anything supporting the bottom of the controller?
Why are you stealing all my announcement fun ;) (completely playing). The current plan is yes, but that is one of the pieces I need to validate in the blind adjustments I made previously before having all of this together. In the end, the goal is that the controller is grounded twice, and the PCB is grounded twice (both to the back plate).

The controller actually sits flush against the back plate beautifully. I have notched out already for the outbound header pins in the back plate since they protrude, and we will have to add an insulating layer to the back of the controller. Part of the trick with the controller grounding will be making sure I can find screws with the correct depth (so they don't come up through the back plate and contact the PCB). Working out to be highly ideal though (was on paper before, but is proving out to be in reality).

User avatar
Muirium
µ

30 Dec 2016, 17:15

Happy? I'll say! Magnificent!

For anyone who hasn't heard my definition of a solid Bluetooth keyboard already:
  • Battery lifetime must exceed 24 hours of active use. Ideally measured in days.
  • Battery ideally charged via USB.
  • The controller should be dual mode—USB and Bluetooth—so it can be used wired whenever desired, especially handy when charging.
  • Multi-host Bluetooth (for quick switching between hosts, via keyboard shortcut) gets bonus points. Pairing/disconnecting/repairing is Bluetooth's Achilles heel so we should reduce that pain point.
Tall order! But far from an impossible one. All of these features exist in various commercially available boards (if not usually all together). Essentially what I want is a Bluetooth board that doesn't suck. A high bar!


Power draw is something to keep in mind. We're doing capsense (which draws more power than typical contact switch or membrane boards) and we're using a bit of a "black box" when it comes to Xwhatsit's controller without the man himself. The easiest power savings all come from sleep. You do things like slow down the matrix scan rate when no keys have been pressed in a while. Don't think we can do that with Xwhatsit's controller and current firmware. Not without powering the whole thing down and restarting it every once in a while.

Of course, with enough space available, we could just go the other route and pack in batteries like it's a bloody Tesla! They are heavy, though, and will take longer to charge, as well as being fairly expensive. A bit of power saving goes a long way.

User avatar
lot_lizard

30 Dec 2016, 18:43

Sheet metal caps arrived... They look good. Not too rigid, not too soft. Just right. The second picture is how they would sit in relation to the keys. Keep in mind that all the keys are fully pressed at the moment because I just removed all of the springs for testing.

EDIT: and it looks like they sent me about 50% too many, so plan on having plenty of extras in the spare parts bag.
IMG_0231.JPG
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IMG_0230.JPG
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Last edited by lot_lizard on 30 Dec 2016, 19:01, edited 1 time in total.

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