Model MF - GB CLOSED

[livingspeedbump]

Any issues with wear? What's the cost on that for a non-buddy?

http://www.morbidstix.com/keyboards/ here is his site. My old 1976 keyboard was the first one he did. He only charges like $30 bucks or so, which is great I think. Wear is very minimal, the clear coat on top makes it very durable. I've had zero issues with wear on some pretty heavily used keyboards so far. He has a lot of different patterns/wood grains/etc avail, so if you are interested I'd suggest just shooting an email to him via the website contact.

[Techno Trousers]

There are a ridiculous number of color combinations! I wish there were pictures of the carbon fiber options. That sounds interesting for sure

[livingspeedbump]

There are a ridiculous number of color combinations! I wish there were pictures of the carbon fiber options. That sounds interesting for sure

Here's and old CM XTi I had done with carbon fiber for a giveaway a while back. If you email him he can usually provide you with images as well. There is an overwhelming number of choices for sure.

[Ir0n]

Wow those look great. I like the wood ones.

[lot_lizard]

Just met with our metal fabricators about making a final set of prototype plates for both the SSK and Full-Size with all of our improvements. The SSK will be a blue powder coated top with Chromate backplate. The Full-Size will be red top on black backplate, both powder coated. This combination, along with my current working stainless prototypes, should give us every combination in terms of fit and color option (aside from green). They are going to work it in with other artistic work (could be 1-2 weeks). I will need to run the one backplate up the road a ways to get the Chromate dip at another location, but it won't have any impact on size testing.

[E TwentyNine]

Maybe now would be a good time to ask them if they can chromate dip screws?

[lot_lizard]

Maybe now would be a good time to ask them if they can chromate dip screws?

These aren't the same folks. We are using a vendor that only hot dips for that process. I will check with them when I run the plate over though. I expect the answer to be "sure we can", but I have never seen or heard of zinc-dipping something that is stainless steel already (not even sure if it would "take"). I will take a couple of screws with me to see what the result would be. Unfortunately, dichromate metric torx screws aren't very common, but the easy solution would be to just order them that way to start with vs. stainless. I'll chat with Fastenal about it as well

[POTV]

I recently noticed, that Ellipse is making spare foam as part of a first aid kit to his nye Model F's. Would it be interesting for this GB to be able to get some extra foam - in case of a spill?

[Techno Trousers]

I'm pretty sure ellipse just went for foam that replicates the properties of the foam IBM originally used, so it's very likely to deteriorate quickly. For the MF, lot_lizard spent time consulting with materials experts and experimenting. The plan is for the MF foam stack to last significantly longer than the original IBM type. So I didn't feel like I'd need another set for myself. I didn't consider dealing with a spill, but I expect we'd be able to disassemble everything and wash and dry the foam to clean up.

This does bring me to another question about materials, though. I'm not an engineer, but I've read that it's a bad idea to use fasteners made of a different metal than the structure they're holding together, because it can set up an electrostatic differential that leads to corrosion. It seems like this might be a concern for people in high humidity areas?

[lot_lizard]

I recently noticed, that Ellipse is making spare foam as part of a first aid kit to his nye Model F's. Would it be interesting for this GB to be able to get some extra foam - in case of a spill?

Our foam structure is very different than the traditional approach. Everywhere that there would be an opening in the top plate, or a critical point of down pressure from the top plate onto the switch barrel... we are using silicon rubber. All other voids are filled in the traditional (yet thicker) foam.


The idea is to make the stabilization of the top plate/barrel union as rigid as possible with a denser material in choice locations, and then fill in the voids with the cheaper less dense material (enabling the silicon to displace easily as needed). In theory, the traditional foam would be made watertight by all silicon gaskets around top plate openings. So if you allowed the spill to dry, you would only need to wash the silicon gaskets/lattice and top plate to remove any trace of the spilled residue. DISCLAIMER... I have not tested this

I have the alpha version of this mixed material in the SSK prototype now, and very pleased with how it created uniform key consistency (especially coupled with the tension screws). The latest design (will post the renders soon I hope) should improve on that marginally. Keep in mind that we are very different board than a XT / 4704. The larger the plate, with key gaps on the y-axis, the more care has to be taken to make the keys consistent. It's one of the reasons that F122/Unsavers are RARELY consistent, where as a Bigfoot/Kishsaver is almost always that way (the design is much more simplistic).

Having said all of that, you can certainly order a spare if you like, but personally... I would save my money

[POTV]

Thanks for a very informative reply - what would the price be for a piece of SSK foam?

[lot_lizard]

This does bring me to another question about materials, though. I'm not an engineer, but I've read that it's a bad idea to use fasteners made of a different metal than the structure they're holding together, because it can set up an electrostatic differential that leads to corrosion. It seems like this might be a concern for people in high humidity areas?

This is a fairly complex topic, but can be explained in lay terms I think (let me know if this makes ANY sense).

Bimetallic contact (two different metals making direct contact), can have corrosion if the two metals are on different ends of something called the galvanic series (think scale of nobility to conduct current when an electrolyte is present). The material that is less noble will act as an pulling anode and develop what they call galvanic corrosion if some sort of anti-oxidant isn't applied to the base. The more noble (cathode) is seldom bothered unless the corrosion is left unattended for extended periods.

In our case, all of our metals (whether mild steel or stainless steel) would have a similar enough nobility on the galvanic series that it wouldn't be a consideration. Maybe if they were left submerged in sea water for extended periods, but certainly not from the air around it.

In the keyboard world, about the only time you would need to be concerned about this would be steel screws into aluminum (aluminum having a VERY low nobility). Fortunately, this is where anodizing steps in and saves aluminum. The anodized coating (harder the better) acts a barrier and prevents most of the anode/cathode transfer over the electrolyte since the electrolyte doesn't make direct contact with the metal.

[XMIT]

This is also why dielectric greases are a good thing.

[Techno Trousers]

Awesome, Thanks for that explanation. I'm glad to know we don't have to worry about it for this project. Seems more like something of concern in outdoor structures, which is the context I first saw it mentioned.

[fohat]

the only time you would need to be concerned about this would be steel screws into aluminum (aluminum having a VERY low nobility). Fortunately, this is where anodizing steps in and saves aluminum. The anodized coating (harder the better) acts a barrier and prevents most of the anode/cathode transfer over the electrolyte since the electrolyte doesn't make direct contact with the metal.

Is there aluminum in this assembly? I was thinking that it was all steel and plastic.

[fohat]

the only time you would need to be concerned about this would be steel screws into aluminum (aluminum having a VERY low nobility). Fortunately, this is where anodizing steps in and saves aluminum. The anodized coating (harder the better) acts a barrier and prevents most of the anode/cathode transfer over the electrolyte since the electrolyte doesn't make direct contact with the metal.

Is there aluminum in this assembly? I was thinking that it was all steel and plastic.

[lot_lizard]

Is there aluminum in this assembly?

Not at all... Just pointing out that would be a scenario where it would be a problem (could have been worded better). We are only steel for our metal in the plates and fasteners.


And I'm certainly not implying that aluminum cases with steel screws are a bad thing either... there just has to be precautions taken otherwise corrosion/residue will form when exposed (raw) to an electrolyte (even extreme humidity).

[lot_lizard]

I'm sure many of have seen Cindy's scrounging post from today. In the interest of transparency, I am going to be receiving quite a few F122s, XTs, and 3178s that are likely salvage condition that I will eventually (months away) be harvesting switches from. As I mentioned before, I will likely order extras of each of our MF parts to create full kits with these switches that we put out on eBay to raise some funds for future projects and equipment.

I will probably order several Indy cases from Unicomp, and sell the full-size versions as complete boards, and with any luck in case development... do the same with the SSKs.

We have some fun projects planned where some of us are partnering behind the scenes to orchestrate feasibility. Fun times ahead, but plan on any new developments being several months away. Just didn't want anyone being surprised when they see several MFs on eBay in the future from the same vendor at 1.5-2x what our GB prices were.

[Techno Trousers]

That's great news. I know you ended up selling most of the switches from the original Cindy haul at cost for phase 1, so I'm really glad you'll be able to sell some MFs for a well deserved profit. That you want to put some of that profit into phase 2 work is a great bonus for all of us!

[lot_lizard]

Printed samples of the side spacers, but really think we need a pattern on the side to break up the "3d printed" look. I threw this together, and will give them a go on the printer later today. Keep in mind the blue cutaways will be much less pronounced in real life. I realize this is silly stuff, but want to do what we can to make this has polished a product as possible.

Left spacer from the Full-Size

fullSizeSpacersLogoPattern.png (95.39 KiB) Viewed 5691 times

Close-up view of the logo and pattern. The pattern will be a v-cut to avoid any issues with dust build-up

fullSizeSpacersLogoPatternCloseUp.png (127.17 KiB) Viewed 5691 times

Side view so you can get an idea of the depth of the cut. Again, much less pronounced than the OpenSCAD render where the "difference" is in blue

fullSizeSpacersLogoPatternCutDepth.png (16.89 KiB) Viewed 5691 times

[E TwentyNine]

Maybe just a repeating MF logo?

...or how about a spaced out parade of lizards?

[ohaimark]

I like the lizard parade idea. That said, I really don't mind the raw look of 3D printed items.

[lot_lizard]

Maybe just a repeating MF logo?

...or how about a spaced out parade of lizards?

I tried the MF logo and it turned out a bit gaudy. I considered interlocking Escher lizards. I agree with ohaimark that the texture of the best of prints is just "meh" when it's looked at in detail. This is just a simple mosaic pattern that is hopefully chaotic enough to break up the print patterns. We'll see. Currently printing, and needs another 45+ minutes.

[ohaimark]

I didn't exactly say it was "meh," just that I don't mind the look. It's neutral for me.

Depending upon which sides are the top and bottom faces, you could change their fill pattern to Hilbert Curves or some other fractal pattern. I know that such things are supported in various slicing applications, notably Slic3r.

[E TwentyNine]

Any kind of tesselated pattern would work, I think the escher lizards are look good and are very appropriate. I believe there should be some "personal mark" of LL on the thing, something subtle, and that fits the bill.

[andrewjoy]

The design looks good, you could also sign the inside of each case of the pre built ones too. The Amiga boys did that on the A1200, and recently a crowd funder got them to do the same for some reproduction cases.

[lot_lizard]

I didn't exactly say it was "meh," just that I don't mind the look. It's neutral for me.

Apologize... I misread.


So I have printed a few different configurations with patterns and logos, and the cleanest look is just going to be the original flat finish (which turned out quite nice). Even with the .25 nozzle in, the co-polyster just doesn't get the level of detail we need to look what I would consider more desirable. I REALLY do like the co-polyster material... it's a tank with nice flat results (still appreciate the recommendation @andrewjoy), and don't want to give it up.

The .4mm nozzle will let me plow through these at about 1 an hour. So 150 units x 2 spacers per unit x 1 hour = you get the idea... The detail needed to be worth it. It wasn't

[Techno Trousers]

Wow, 300 hours just to print these at full tilt?! That's gotta take like 3+ weeks realistically, right? I hope you factored wear on your 3D printer into the price we paid for these, and find time to sleep.

[lot_lizard]

It can do 5 at a time, printing one complete before moving onto the next... So that certainly helps, and they are just shy of 50 minutes a piece. Should take about 14-16 days with down time gaps. It could print more on a single deck if we did a single layer to every piece before returning to the first (no head collisions with previous printing), but I'm getting better end results doing a full piece at a time. Note we are printing these as solids, so that just takes time. See the image below for an idea of layout on the deck.

This is the printers purpose, and why I picked it up. I prefer machines don't sit idle much, especially those that deprecate rapidly because the technology will be obsolete quickly. I charged you guys 60% of what Shapeways would have charged us for the same STLs, and applied that margin towards the printer. In the end, 200-300 of the proceeds went towards the printer, and since this project is officially being run as "business" according to taxes... I will deprecate the equipment over 5 years before it is capitalized (even though the business operates as break even). In the end, I'll be out 500-1k on it, but I've already been using it quite a bit for other research. It's goodness.

Screen Shot 2017-01-18 at 4.31.18 PM.png (128.49 KiB) Viewed 5577 times

[andrewjoy]

Have you tired messing with the settings to see if you can reduce print time?

A few things spring to mind.

Bump up the print speed on the infill , it does not matter how accurate that is.

Reduce the infill , you will be amazed how little you need for strength.

They look far enough apart to print one at a time not all at once , this will allow you to bump up the parameter speed and acceleration without stringing, it will also reduce the need for retraction.

Consider upgrading your ultimaker to an E3D hot end, it is a bit of a waste if you have the 2+ over the 2 however you can then use the E3D volcano heater block that allows much faster printing with larger nozzle sizes ( up to 1mm !!!!)

http://wiki.e3d-online.com/wiki/E3D-v6_on_Ultimaker_2