Round 7 / ALGOL-style / Deadline 2018-11-30

[rominronin]

... but R7 is being used for liquidity, not total funding, which would be the case of a Ponzi scheme. ..

Thanks for putting this into the right words.

Some of the kids here don't seem to understand the difference.

How about the term "pyramid scheme" then?

Timing and tone felt out of place to me.

[caligo]

Okay. Done some thinking, calmed down at bit.

The Ponzi Scheme thing was uncalled for (things are not as clear cut with this term as some people here would have them be, but that's probably a discussion for another time). There's no intent to defraud people in this GB, and although I've stressed that this wasn't what I was implying I guess the word comes with to much baggage for that to matter much. In retrospect, the analogy was half-assed at best and I should not have stuck with it.

Seeing as 7bit has made a descision on how to move forward, I guess it's relevant to discuss what the fallout of said descision is. Round 6 phase 2 takes priority, meaning that there is no cash left of the $18'000 already paid for R7. There are, however, assets in the form of R6 leftovers: $19'000 in phase 1, and $ 15'000 in phase 2 (i.e. $ 34'000 in total). All of this based on what 7bit said in the R5 thread.

In the best of worlds, the R6 leftovers will be sold an generate an inflow of cash at least equal to the $18'000 that was diverted from R7 to R6. However, the R6 leftovers still suffer from a lack of proper kits. With some creativity one might be able to cobble together something that looks decent, but it's not really something that will appeal to casuals and newbies. It's probably reasonable to expect only part of the leftovers to sell. On a more positive note, R7 will be okay as long as about half of the leftovers are bought. There are also other sources of cash, e.g. 7bit selling stuff like switches and new R7 orders (especially once that discount period ends, and margins are higher). However, R7 orders will probably slow down until SP actually says something substantial to 7bit about their apparent unwillingness to produce R7.

With some luck, we're probably looking at something like a Q1 2018 production slot for R6 phase 2. Sales of leftovers will probably do better once all the caps are produced, but I think it's fair to assume R7 wont reach funding until at least Q2–Q3 2018 – which would then translate to a production slot some time in 2019, if we're lucky. That's not too terrible compared to R5, although it's still a long time. It's at least more or less within the bounds of what one would expect when joining a 7bit GB.

Also, realistically there wont be any refunds for quite some time – if R6 really takes full priority, paying for shipping of phase 2 will also need to be done before anyone gets their money back. In other words, there's no rush for those who feel like jumping ship – one might as well wait until we know more about SPs and 7bits plans before cancelling one's R7 order.

One last thing: Given 7bits intention to do the most popular R7 colors first, there is probably a significant risk of the whole R6 debacle repeating itself. R7 will take a long time to complete because diverting funds to R6 has left a big deficit that needs to be rectified before an order can be placed with SP, and the same will realistically happen with the least popular R7 colors. If you're unlucky enough to base your order around the least popular color, you might be looking at a 2020 or 2021 delivery given how backed up SP are. The fair thing to do would probably be presenting easily accessible statistics on what colors have sold most, so that prospective buyers can make an informed descision on what to go for. And the safe thing do do is making sure no colors aside from gray and beige are essential to your order.

EDIT: I guess it also bears mentioning that R7 buys come with some additional risk, compared to your average GB. If 7bit fails to sell enough R6 leftovers or doing so takes a long time, things might drag on for ages – you're essentially buying into a potential liquidity crisis. Some kind of statistics on how sales are going would probably help prospective buyers make a more informed descision.

[oknytt]

Just FYI it seems like that if you cancel part of your R7 order with the discount applied to it, you lose the discount for the whole order, at least that what happened to me. Maybe it's just a temporary hiccup and it might soon be fixed, but as usual, 7bit isn't the fastest to reply.

[Gray Jian]

Okay. Done some thinking, calmed down at bit.
I guess it also bears mentioning that R7 buys come with some additional risk, compared to your average GB. If 7bit fails to sell enough R6 leftovers or doing so takes a long time, things might drag on for ages – you're essentially buying into a potential liquidity crisis. Some kind of statistics on how sales are going would probably help prospective buyers make a more informed descision.

Just refund later make you so angry? You said:'I'm really not interested in crucifying anyone for their sins here' but your action make me feel you really want to crucify 7bit and round 7 on the wall? I hope my feel is wrong, but maybe you need show some goodwill to prove this first.
I am only a Chinese, never been abroad, even never talk with a foreigner in real life, but I support 7bit and round 7, I don't want to lose the chance to get so beautiful keycaps, and I hope I can get more keycaps like this in the future, why you want to destory the whole thing?
There is a date difference between production and selling, if after everything sold out, then pay for production, the round must take much more time. Just borrow a little money for other people to get their keycaps quickly, later other people will return the money back even with a little interest, I feel good about that. Don't be so stingy! That's not a Ponzi scheme, that's 'All for one,one for all'.
There are more round 5/6 leftover 3 month ago, but day by day, the list turning shorter and shorter, the money return quickly, don't worry about '7bit can't sell the leftover'.

[Slom]

I don't think that description is "adequate" at all, because it is essentially inaccurate. It is not a hybrid or partial Ponzi scheme, it is how businesses (which sell hard goods) manage cash flow as a general course.

So is this a more of a community group buy or is 7bit a keycap vendor?

[Wodan]

This is the mother of all community GBs ... He's done endless polls on colors and icons and mods ...

[caligo]

Okay. Done some thinking, calmed down at bit.
I guess it also bears mentioning that R7 buys come with some additional risk, compared to your average GB. If 7bit fails to sell enough R6 leftovers or doing so takes a long time, things might drag on for ages – you're essentially buying into a potential liquidity crisis. Some kind of statistics on how sales are going would probably help prospective buyers make a more informed descision.

Just refund later make you so angry? You said:'I'm really not interested in crucifying anyone for their sins here' but your action make me feel you really want to crucify 7bit and round 7 on the wall? I hope my feel is wrong, but maybe you need show some goodwill to prove this first.
I am only a Chinese, never been abroad, even never talk with a foreigner in real life, but I support 7bit and round 7, I don't want to lose the chance to get so beautiful keycaps, and I hope I can get more keycaps like this in the future, why you want to destory the whole thing?
There is a date difference between production and selling, if after everything sold out, then pay for production, the round must take much more time. Just borrow a little money for other people to get their keycaps quickly, later other people will return the money back even with a little interest, I feel good about that. Don't be so stingy! That's not a Ponzi scheme, that's 'All for one,one for all'.
There are more round 5/6 leftover 3 month ago, but day by day, the list turning shorter and shorter, the money return quickly, don't worry about '7bit can't sell the leftover'.

You don't just cut out the middle part of a quoted post without indicating that you've done so, that's quite a dishonest way to start a discussion. You've basically edited out the part of my post that didn't fit your narrative. And saying I want to "destroy the whole thing" is just silly. 7bit is currently sitting on roughly $400 that's mine, plus my R6 phase 2 order - why would I want to destroy something I'm part of?

To me, for something to be considered a 'one for all, all for one' approach it has to meet several criteria - starting with some semblance of reciprocity. At the moment R7 suffers from a lack of funds and thus faces delays because of problems in R6. I don't really see any upside for R7 buyers down the line. Realistically, money from R6 leftovers will at best barely cover that $18'000 within any reasonable timeframe. That's not solidarity in my book.

But the GB is set up the way 7bit decides, no matter what I think. I just think it should be made clear what the setup is, and what the caveats are. If I join a GB, the assumption usually isn't that my money will be lent to another GB. And if the success of a GB I join hinges on selling some other stuff, knowing how that whole project is coming along is a quite reasonable thing to ask for, no?

[Gray Jian]

You don't just cut out the middle part of a quoted post without indicating that you've done so, that's quite a dishonest way to start a discussion. You've basically edited out the part of my post that didn't fit your narrative. And saying I want to "destroy the whole thing" is just silly. 7bit is currently sitting on roughly $400 that's mine, plus my R6 phase 2 order - why would I want to destroy something I'm part of?

To me, for something to be considered a 'one for all, all for one' approach it has to meet several criteria - starting with some semblance of reciprocity. At the moment R7 suffers from a lack of funds and thus faces delays because of problems in R6. I don't really see any upside for R7 buyers down the line. Realistically, money from R6 leftovers will at best barely cover that $18'000 within any reasonable timeframe. That's not solidarity in my book.

But the GB is set up the way 7bit decides, no matter what I think. I just think it should be made clear what the setup is, and what the caveats are. If I join a GB, the assumption usually isn't that my money will be lent to another GB. And if the success of a GB I join hinges on selling some other stuff, knowing how that whole project is coming along is a quite reasonable thing to ask for, no?

I cut your post because it's just on the same page, and it's too long, I don't want to waste other people's time. If they want to know what you talk about, they can watch themselves, they even can find your post about 'I'm really not interested in crucifying anyone for their sins here', '7bit talked in the other thread about selling his car and furniture', 'I certainly don't want it to lead to 7bits personal ruin.', 'I'd rather just have the money be lost than having some guy live on the streets just because he owes me some keycaps.' , but now because '7bit is currently sitting on roughly $400 that's mine' , you really want 'lead to 7bits personal ruin ', 'having some guy live on the streets'.
You said 'To me, for something to be considered a 'one for all, all for one' approach it has to meet several criteria - starting with some semblance of reciprocity. ' but starting, you benefited 'one for all, all for one'. Why you get your round 5 keycaps, if the GB runs as you supposed, you should get nothing, because you supposed every GB must sold out first ,gathered all the money, then pay to SP for production the keycaps, but still now there are some round 5 keycaps are not sold out, that means the member of round 6 borrowed some money, this help you get your round 5 keycaps more quickly. 'all for you' first, but now you not only refuced 'one for all', help other people get their round 6 keycaps, even though they helped you first, but also repeated round 7 is 'Ponzi scheme' again, again and again. You benefit from this 'setup', but now you attacked this 'setup' so much, do you have a conscience?
You asked 'why would I want to destroy something I'm part of? ' maybe just because 7bit refund you later, this make you so angry.

[zslane]

However, R7 orders will probably slow down until SP actually says something substantial to 7bit about their apparent unwillingness to produce R7.

Yes, much hangs in the balance depending on what happens with Round 7. My feeling is that it will take considerable logistical finesse to reorganize Round 7 in a way that will open SP's doors to it.

With some luck, we're probably looking at something like a Q1 2018 production slot for R6 phase 2.

I would say that is an accurate assessment, yes. Except I would say it is going to take quite a bit of luck, not just some. Either that or a herculean financial and negotiating effort on 7bit's part. But I'm not counting him out yet! I can't afford to; I have too much still invested in Round 6 phase 2, and I'd really much rather have the keycaps than my money back.

[caligo]

[…]
You said 'To me, for something to be considered a 'one for all, all for one' approach it has to meet several criteria - starting with some semblance of reciprocity. ' but starting, you benefited 'one for all, all for one'. Why you get your round 5 keycaps, if the GB runs as you supposed, you should get nothing, because you supposed every GB must sold out first ,gathered all the money, then pay to SP for production the keycaps, but still now there are some round 5 keycaps are not sold out, that means the member of round 6 borrowed some money, this help you get your round 5 keycaps more quickly. 'all for you' first, but now you not only refuced 'one for all', help other people get their round 6 keycaps, even though they helped you first, but also repeated round 7 is 'Ponzi scheme' again, again and again. You benefit from this 'setup', but now you attacked this 'setup' so much, do you have a conscience?
You asked 'why would I want to destroy something I'm part of? ' maybe just because 7bit refund you later, this make you so angry.

Hey, look, through the use of […] you can indicate when you've omitted part of a quote! It's also customary to not cut out things in a way that changes the meaning of a quote, e.g. removing the part where I apoligize for the Ponzi Scheme stuff and then going on a rant about how I keep calling it a Ponzi Scheme.

As far as I recall, Round 5 was more or less a done deal when Round 6 was started. This is also what it says in the DT Wiki. So if anything, the sale of R5 leftovers helped finance R6. But that's kind of beside the point, since I also have money locked up in R7 and R6 phase 2. I have no horse in this race, I just wan't my keycaps – same as you and everyone else. But this is not really going anywere, it's just strawman bullshit.

[chuckdee]

... but R7 is being used for liquidity, not total funding, which would be the case of a Ponzi scheme. ..

Thanks for putting this into the right words.

Some of the kids here don't seem to understand the difference.

How about the term "pyramid scheme" then?

That easily fails also.

A pyramid scheme is a business model that recruits members via a promise of payments or services for enrolling others into the scheme, rather than supplying investments or sale of products or services.

When you think "What about '..'", trying to be witty or funny, at least look up what it means, and then decide if it truly adds in a constructive way to the dialog. I don't know what the impetus is to label something that's an honest, if complex, enterprise, something it's not. But it really denigrates the work being put in this buy.

[chuckdee]

Hey, look, through the use of […] you can indicate when you've omitted part of a quote!

I don't know what forums you frequent, but I've never seen that used. That might just mean that I've not been exposed to it, but that's no reason to castigate anyone over the form that they use. Now I do agree that you don't cut in order to change the meaning of a quote, but that's not what I see here. He quoted the relevant part in whole, and did not cut this out of the middle of a statement. A bit harsh to get upset with someone, and expect them to use additional quoting to cut your post to a reasonable portion to quote, IMO.

[krutmob]

I've got to contact Signature Plastics about that.

BTW: From whom is that information?

If this is true, the only way would be to cancel Round 7 and Round 6 phase 2 together.

Signature plastics is holding $17928 and the 4 money collectors a bit more than $17066.

7bit... http://pimpmykeyboard.com/whats-new/

We are still waiting for funds for Round 6b. Once received, we will review the production schedule and provide an estimated completion date. Currently we are booked out to the end of 2017 in two-shot SA sets. This includes 11 retail 'group buys' (3 for MD) plus 5 large commercial orders. Due to a number of factors, the main one being the overwhelming demand for custom SA sets, Round 6b will be the last of the Round orders we will produce in the foreseeable future. 7bit was made aware of this through email on Thursday, January 19th.

What.

[velusip]

It sounds to me like these Rounds should have been cancelled sooner. e.g. Before paying for SP mistakes. After all, delays cause cancellations, lynch mobs, hate wagons (this is the internet, afterall), and payment reversals. Tightening the margin of funds by paying out of pocket for errors compounds all that further. All of which only leads to further tantrum spiraling.

So if it's any consolation, hang onto my order money for the year. We'll talk about refunds then? Use the money to fill sandbags and defend from the flood of tears. Try and balance this up as best you can. I wasn't expecting a return on investment any time soon anyway. I hope at least some others feel the same way and will have patience.

Regarding a direction from here:

How about offering an order conversion from 7 to 6b? Since the manufacturing isn't even close to beginning, consider the similarities in what's offered. I'm sure lots of people would be willing to compromise in this way. It would make no sense at all for SP to deny higher quantities. The profit margin only increases, after all.

Confirm with SP, and consider use this 6b "final Round" to your advantage for marketing. "The last Great Round. 7-bit Farewell Tour." You've been in this for a long time. Lots of people trust you and your groupbuys. The only reason I entered was because of the history and evidence of lots of happy customers. You've made your errors public and clear, which future GBs can learn from (SP certainly has), and while lots of people are feeling uncomfortable by this abrupt news, it is clearly not a scam. So I'd like to hear your thoughts and results from that -- and if you like it, expect more last minute 8-month orders.


Welp, let us know what your plans are. No rush, we've got months!

[Gray Jian]

SP didn't say they won't produce round 7 forever, maybe later they will change their mind, but even they say that, I won't ask for round 7 refund in this time, although I am a poor Chinese without social security. 7Bit can use my money to produce phase 2, when he sell them, then refund me. I don't want to make 7bit sell his car or funiture, live on the street even 'crucifying anyone for their sins'.

[Gray Jian]

[…]
You said 'To me, for something to be considered a 'one for all, all for one' approach it has to meet several criteria - starting with some semblance of reciprocity. ' but starting, you benefited 'one for all, all for one'. Why you get your round 5 keycaps, if the GB runs as you supposed, you should get nothing, because you supposed every GB must sold out first ,gathered all the money, then pay to SP for production the keycaps, but still now there are some round 5 keycaps are not sold out, that means the member of round 6 borrowed some money, this help you get your round 5 keycaps more quickly. 'all for you' first, but now you not only refuced 'one for all', help other people get their round 6 keycaps, even though they helped you first, but also repeated round 7 is 'Ponzi scheme' again, again and again. You benefit from this 'setup', but now you attacked this 'setup' so much, do you have a conscience?
You asked 'why would I want to destroy something I'm part of? ' maybe just because 7bit refund you later, this make you so angry.

Hey, look, through the use of […] you can indicate when you've omitted part of a quote! It's also customary to not cut out things in a way that changes the meaning of a quote, e.g. removing the part where I apoligize for the Ponzi Scheme stuff and then going on a rant about how I keep calling it a Ponzi Scheme.

As far as I recall, Round 5 was more or less a done deal when Round 6 was started. This is also what it says in the DT Wiki. So if anything, the sale of R5 leftovers helped finance R6. But that's kind of beside the point, since I also have money locked up in R7 and R6 phase 2. I have no horse in this race, I just wan't my keycaps – same as you and everyone else. But this is not really going anywere, it's just strawman bullshit.

You apoligized for calling round 7 Ponzi Scheme? Oh I found it.

Okay. Done some thinking, calmed down at bit.

The Ponzi Scheme thing was uncalled for (things are not as clear cut with this term as some people here would have them be, but that's probably a discussion for another time). There's no intent to defraud people in this GB, and although I've stressed that this wasn't what I was implying I guess the word comes with to much baggage for that to matter much. In retrospect, the analogy was half-assed at best and I should not have stuck with it.

You call this apoligzie? If it's an apoligize, I don't know what is 'try to gloss over your mistake'. After that you even added this:

EDIT: I guess it also bears mentioning that R7 buys come with some additional risk, compared to your average GB. If 7bit fails to sell enough R6 leftovers or doing so takes a long time, things might drag on for ages – you're essentially buying into a potential liquidity crisis. Some kind of statistics on how sales are going would probably help prospective buyers make a more informed descision.

What a great apolizie!

[Gray Jian]

Hey, look, through the use of […] you can indicate when you've omitted part of a quote!

I don't know what forums you frequent, but I've never seen that used. That might just mean that I've not been exposed to it, but that's no reason to castigate anyone over the form that they use. Now I do agree that you don't cut in order to change the meaning of a quote, but that's not what I see here. He quoted the relevant part in whole, and did not cut this out of the middle of a statement. A bit harsh to get upset with someone, and expect them to use additional quoting to cut your post to a reasonable portion to quote, IMO.

I'm sorry, I am a yokel, can't quote the relevant part in whole, even can't understand your sentences completely, but I wonder, which meaning of a quote I have changed? Oh I quote these 'I'm really not interested in crucifying anyone for their sins here', '7bit talked in the other thread about selling his car and furniture', 'I certainly don't want it to lead to 7bits personal ruin.', 'I'd rather just have the money be lost than having some guy live on the streets just because he owes me some keycaps.', OK ,I really believe these sentence are from his heart, he really dosn't want to hurt anyone, and other people should have the same feel. But as he charge me 'cut out things in a way that changes the meaning of a quote 'and you agree with that, that means my feel is wrong. In fact he really interested in crucifying anyone for their sins here, certainly want it to lead to 7bits personal ruin, hope having some guy live on the streets just because he owes his some keycaps? Oh my god, how horrible!

[caligo]

Regarding a direction from here:

How about offering an order conversion from 7 to 6b? Since the manufacturing isn't even close to beginning, consider the similarities in what's offered. I'm sure lots of people would be willing to compromise in this way. It would make no sense at all for SP to deny higher quantities. The profit margin only increases, after all.

I suggested something like that in the R5 thread a while back, but apparently 7bit cannot change a thing in the R6 phase 2 order since SP has already made all the preparations for it. Which is a shame really – I was very pleased with myself after coming up with the idea of offering something called the ERSATZ kit.

[velusip]

... I suggested something like that in the R5 thread a while back, but apparently 7bit cannot change a thing in the R6 phase 2 order since SP has already made all the preparations for it. Which is a shame really – I was very pleased with myself after coming up with the idea of offering something called the ERSATZ kit.

Hehe. I just read that now. It makes sense -- they have a paper log prepared with complete instructions, which takes some time to review, and changes the schedule allotment if lengthened.

Oh well. Having a completely cream coloured SA set was just too lavish for this lifetime. I dialed it back with some leftovers.

[7bit]

When I have time, I will read all your posts.

I'm currently writing my answer to Signature Plastics and included some figures.

There are less than $18,000 in Round 7 key caps, but the money collectors hold ca. $21,000, so all Round 7 orders could be refunded.

The downside would be we can't pay for Round 6 phase 2: Only $6853.36 (about $4000 if everybody paid their ordered keys) are missing at this moment and going by how much came in within this month, it is only a matter of a few weeks until phase 2 is covered.

If people hold on for one more month, we can start refunding people who do not believe in Round 7 from money coming in from selling in stock items and keys from phase 2.


You can always make the situation look really bad if you like, but it really isn't.


BTW: I get new orders about $200-$300 per day, mostly for in stock stuff, so things don't go worse. Also: No Round 7 order is locked, so you always can clear it and choose something else or jump off entirely.


Here is what came in during this month per day:

Code: Select all

2017-01-01| 706.78
2017-01-03|1037.64
2017-01-04| 326.00
2017-01-05| 568.83
2017-01-06|  77.75
2017-01-08|  78.00
2017-01-09| 392.11
2017-01-10| 795.50
2017-01-11| 251.09
2017-01-12| 262.05
2017-01-13|  85.00
2017-01-14| 493.68
2017-01-15| 164.28
2017-01-16| 206.73
2017-01-17|  99.00
2017-01-19| 175.11
2017-01-20|  99.70
2017-01-21|  13.84
2017-01-22| 114.65
2017-01-23| 602.92
2017-01-25|  52.65
2017-01-26| 124.00
2017-01-27| 684.00
2017-01-28|  59.80

[Griffy]

I say give 1 warning to pay within 1 week and if not clear the keys. There are money needed and people sitting wanting to buy keys. We absolutely cant have keyes locked by non buyers. If anyone have another way of seeing this please say so but I haven't seen 1 member disagree with this thought yet.

[caligo]

Good to have som hard facts, finally. It would be nice to have more of these cash flow figures moving forward. I get that you're quite busy 7bit, but it goes a long way towards managing expectations and alleviating worries.

I don't know how representative the last month has been, but with an average cash inflow of roughly $250 a day it would indeed be about 30 days until phase 2 is funded (or 72 days to refund all of R7, should it come to that). But I guess the leftovers sell less and less as the amount of kits decreases – the question is at what rate. However, even if sales were to decline quickly something like a two-month window within which funding for phase 2 will be reached sounds quite realistic. That's not too bad. Then again, what spot phase 2 gets in SP's production que is another matter entirely.

[7bit]

I still can reduce prices on some kits that are not easy to sell and I still dig through those grab bag keys.

There is still some cool stuff to be comming up, once I have phase 2 here.

[caligo]

Yeah, I guess there'll be a steady decline of leftover sales until Phase 2 is produced, and then sales will spike again. That's quite a ways to go though, although it will of course contribute to R7 in the long run.

What had me kind of worried was a scenario where SP refuses to do R7, and sales dwindle. However, given the sales figures you posted I guess it's quite reasonable to assume R7 is refundable not only in theory but also in practice (at least once phase 2 arrives, meaning it might take a while). Still can't say I agree with the setup (a curmudgeon till the end, I guess), but the whole thing at least appears more salvageble now – even if the worst case scenario should become reality.

[zslane]

Still can't say I agree with the setup (a curmudgeon till the end, I guess)...

I don't think anyone agrees with the setup except for 7bit himself. It is barely managed chaos even under the best of circumstances, and it is fraught with precisely the sort of peril we're seeing now. It's like being on a runaway train while 7bit lays down track ahead of it; each of us prays that we'll be able to jump off close to our respective destinations, before the whole thing derails.

I think the more restrained approach that he is trying to take with Round 7 indicates that even 7bit realizes enough is enough, and that his GBs need to become more modest in scope.

[chuckdee]

Personally, I agree with letting 7bit work under his constraints to get it done in a way that doesn't interfere with his own lifestyle, and deciding whether or not to trust that, rather than undermine his work. I didn't understand, and when I tried to get insight, it wasn't forthcoming, and so I jumped off. No bitching, no moaning, no trying to get him to change anything. Creating accounting that is readable and usable by everyone it's posted to is a monumental task. Perhaps if someone were willing to at least volunteer to help with that and donate their free time to it, and had the qualifications to do so...

While it's OK to ask questions IMO, it goes off the rails when that goes to challenging and denigrating based on the actions of a third party that has their own, separate goals.

I think that a lot of this on SP's part is predicated on MD having more volume, and being easier to deal with. So how do you get more of MD into your queue, and less of the risky community drops in your queue? You raise the prices for the community drops (already apparently done), and take advantage of irregularities in community buys that are in the queue to remove them. What I am concerned about from the outside looking in is whether round 7 will increase in price because of the other increases they've handed down.

But I have no dog in this race, so will just leave it with these observations.

[7bit]

There is no chaos!!!


Also: I know everything about trains, so there is no trouble.


Currently, the train is waiting in a station, once the money has been paid, the track can be made and once it is there, the train rolls out.


It will have to stop right before the next station and wait at the signal until the next station is being finished.*


Nothing will derail, just delay a bit.

*)

Spoiler:

You can always jump off and walk the remaining 500m to the taxi stand.

[7bit]

...
I think that a lot of this on SP's part is predicated on MD having more volume, and being easier to deal with. So how do you get more of MD into your queue, and less of the risky community drops in your queue? You raise the prices for the community drops (already apparently done), and take advantage of irregularities in community buys that are in the queue to remove them. What I am concerned about from the outside looking in is whether round 7 will increase in price because of the other increases they've handed down.

But I have no dog in this race, so will just leave it with these observations.

About pricing: Yes, you all pay for those quality troubles and for keys that are only produced 25x. They really pull the costs up. Then those new legends etc. This is not cheap. I don't know if for a potential Round 7 SP will raise the prices more than they usually did from year to year. If they do I have some buffer calculated in. If they want too much there might be the point to find some other manufacturer. But if it is only the regular increase, there should be no trouble. I just have to convice SP to be nice and take orders from me, again. This time for sure only when the money is there before the order is placed. I've learned this lesson.

[zslane]

Well, I wasn't using the train analogy to describe the production schedule (or its progress). I was using it to describe the financing methodology employed to fund these group buys.

Spoiler:

Hey, I'm trying to keep folks from jumping off; losing buyers doesn't help the train get started again. Don't encourage people to walk to the taxi stand!

[caligo]

Still can't say I agree with the setup (a curmudgeon till the end, I guess)...

I don't think anyone agrees with the setup except for 7bit himself. It is barely managed chaos even under the best of circumstances, and it is fraught with precisely the sort of peril we're seeing now. It's like being on a runaway train while 7bit lays down track ahead of it; each of us prays that we'll be able to jump off close to our respective destinations, before the whole thing derails.

I think the more restrained approach that he is trying to take with Round 7 indicates that even 7bit realizes enough is enough, and that his GBs need to become more modest in scope.

Seeing as I work as a train driver, I guess my resentment is justified then – after all, I get enough of this kind of thing at work. Being in a Buster Keaton movie 24/7 is too much for my frail nerves.



On a more serious note, I appreciate the fact that 7bit has been more forthcoming with information on how things are going during this recent crisis, and that R7 takes a (somewhat) more manageable approach to things. Hopefully, things will be learned from R6 and mistakes thus not repeated down the road rail.