The Clic-64, custom build

andrea-i · 22 Feb 2017, 10:40

Hello!

First post here, although I've been lurking around for a while planning an evil scheme for total money wasting!

The story so far, I'm a few months in, first TKL with cherry blue and loving it, but missing that special feel.
As many around here I guess, I started my own mental trip towards the perfect compact. Started looking at 60% to soon realise I needed the arrow keys, so I moved to evaluating a clueboard/leopold layout but then realised I could maybe make a whole new thing from scratch.

I am in love with the design of vintage home computers, especially the commodore 64. I thought about using a real c64 keyboard with an arduino, but I guess it just isn't practical to have a huge thing on my desk, super high raised and without very good switches.

I am a 3d artist/programmer by trade, and I've been longing to get into cnc machining for a while, so I started working on this project on my spare time, The Clic-64!

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Before to make that model and render I dissected what I felt like key concepts of a c64 and retro terminals in general:

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Once I've identified some key aspects, I started working on the layout, the thing here was making something that would incarnate that same feeling from vintage terminals, while being practical about usability (I plan on making this my full time keybaord after all), while also trying to use only standard sized keys, to avoid making this just a dream project:

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Turns out this thing has 64 keys exactly, I realised this later, thus the super fitting name : )

I'm hoping to push this thing forward in the next few months and document it all here.
Next thing will be making a real cad before I can start looking for someone to cut the parts, I think I'll learn how to use autodesk fusion 360 as it seems to fit the bill.
And I'm kinda crap with the solder, but I've seen some great tutorials around here that'll come in handy!

If you made it reading this far, you might as well just let me know what you think about it and if you have some advices just shoot them away ; )

Andrea

Sigmoid · 22 Feb 2017, 11:42

I like the idea of a c64-inspired keyboard...

Though I seriously doubt that a vertical row of keys could be useful for arrows. Seems incredibly uncomfortable. If something, I'd put del/ins/home/end on them. On a small keyboard, my personal favorite for arrows is using an fn+[hjkl] combo, but you could also use [asdw], [jkli] or the HHKB arrow placement. Also, I'd make them wide, like on the c64 - it's a huge part of the aesthetic.

The mainstream practice of having Caps lock on the home row is pretty useless imho, but since the c64 has Shift Lock there anyway, I'd probably just do what the c64 does - have a 1u Caps lock, and another 1u key for something to be decided...

Generally, I'm not sure it's a good idea to stick with standard keycap sizes. In fact I'm borderline sure it isn't. It totally compromises the artistic intention, and there's no actual reason to do so - getting nonstandard keycaps is incredibly easy these days. For prototyping you might have to make do with unprinted ones, but hey...

Besides, you've already abandoned standard keyset compatibility when you decided on 1u modifier keys. So just drop this requirement completely and design the layout you want to design - following the outlines of the c64 keyboard more closely. (Like note how the c64 keyboard is actually 16u wide, not 15u.)

I'm not sure how familiar you are with modern '60%' keyboards like the HHKB or the Infinity, if not very, I'd suggest studying their layout.

When designing a layout, I prefer if designers have a critical eye for the conventions of mainstream products, rather than following them unthinking. The current typical PC keyboard has some really bad "features".

andrea-i · 22 Feb 2017, 12:32

Hi Sigmoid, I was very tempted to go for the layout with some custom keycaps, this is what it could look like:

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But I already have a massdrop keyset on the way, and I wouldn't have the custom key sizes for capslock and enter, and for the vertical column it's easier to put some 1unit keys than finding four custom sized keycaps I guess.

I know 60% keyboards and I find the HH2 very charming, in fact I started off my layout from a standard 60% and worked from there.
I guess with that layout and a programmable chip, anyone could put whatever they like for the four buttons in the right column. I'll try to go for arrows initially, as my original intent was to solve the arrow keys issue of a 60% without going for the leopold layout.
We'll see : )

pdc · 22 Feb 2017, 16:14

+1 for asymmetrical layout and having the space-bar row being shorter. I've tried to do the same & like you found that standard caps being designed for symmetrical layouts makes it tricky!

For more old-timey asymmetry you could replace Caps lock with Ctrl and make the backslash key the proper width...

t!ng · 22 Feb 2017, 16:24

It has character. I like it!

Sigmoid · 22 Feb 2017, 16:46

Hey

Here's my 15 minute take on the topic, 16u wide. The c64 was definitely a pretty interesting keyboard.

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Orpheo · 22 Feb 2017, 17:36

I prefer your original design. And for the arrow keys that is essential in your need, I would sacrifice the left three 1u mods on the right, move all the space bar row to the right to form a traditional inverted arrow cluster, and use a short ISO shift instead. Anyway you have a splendid design to begin with already, good luck and keep faith!

andrea-i · 22 Feb 2017, 19:16

That is a good idea! I wouldn't want to create a jack of all trade, but with a simple shift to the right of the last row, I could have more options on what to use as arrow keys...lots of options now actually!

Custom vanilla render to show the new layout : )

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Orpheo · 23 Feb 2017, 05:51

Nice! What about having left mods 1.5u 1u 1.5u, then on the right side of the space bar you'd have arrow cluster moved 1u to the right, allowing using short ISO shift and not sacrificing the question mark keys?

taylorswiftttttt · 23 Feb 2017, 06:16

removed

Findecanor · 23 Feb 2017, 09:07

I think it looks a bit weird with just one key jutting on the left side.
If you were able to get a custom print on the keys, how about swapping Enter and Caps Lock and maybe splitting the huge left Shift key to get a Fn key there in the same pos as on the C64.

: Clic-64-suggestion.png (19.53 KiB) Viewed 8069 times

Code for http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com:

Spoiler:

Krakob · 23 Feb 2017, 10:23

Ah, this is absolutely great! I love looking at terminals and seeing all their non-standard glory!

andrea-i · 23 Feb 2017, 11:16

I think I'll make one more try reshuffling an an ansi 104 keys, it'll have to be blank modifiers or the labels will be all badly scattered around.

Keypoints:
- keeping two rows out-shifted to really resamble a c64.
- managing with one standard 104 ansi keyset (I still think it's important, to not make this just sci-fi)
- keeping the lower-right modifier cluster open to the option of becoming arrow keys (I really like this idea).

: keyboard-layout (1).jpg (58.04 KiB) Viewed 8033 times

I think I'm not there yet with the second row from the bottom, too there's one or two extra non standard keys there.

andrea-i · 24 Feb 2017, 13:36

Ok, this was harder then I thought!
I made a photoshop file with all the keycaps from the drop I'm waiting for: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x ... keycap-set

And I managed to come up with this layout, which, if I don't go insane, should be my final:

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: keyboard-layout.jpg (60.39 KiB) Viewed 7994 times

I think it's pretty standard too, especially if one buys keycaps with symbols for the modifiers, or blanks.
Next thing, designing the case.
I think I'll try and make a layered case for the core and then design a cover that sits on top. All cnc machined out of acrylic.

sgtpopwell · 27 Feb 2017, 11:30

Loving this, following to watch progress

andrea-i · 28 Feb 2017, 11:55

Thank you sgtpopwell, and to everyone who was kind enough to share ideas.

I'm now talking to http://www.lasermaster.co.uk for the lasercut metal plate, should be around 50 euros with shipping.

Meanwhile I'm getting into Autodesk Fusion 360 for the case, I'm designing it starting from the handy svg files coming from builder.swillkb.com .

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Engicoder · 28 Feb 2017, 16:11

I really like where you are going with this. Please keep posting updates!

andrea-i · 22 Mar 2017, 12:36

Slowly making progress!

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The plate is awesome, bought from lasermaster.co.uk, switches fit perfectly, hopefully I didn't f*up the screw holes, but I should manage fine anyways.

Now that I have the plate I can get the exact measures to design the case, which I foresee is gonna be the most difficult part.
Especially finding the right material to cnc might prove challenging (I fear I might not find thick enough acrylic for the top cover).

To celebrate I've done a new render with an industrial flavoured case : )

: renderIndustrial.jpg (364.58 KiB) Viewed 7646 times

The nerdy adventure begins!

sneaux · 22 Mar 2017, 19:43

andrea-i, this looks GOOD! The arrows are crazy but that makes it unique. What software do you use to render these? Any recommendations for a total noob in that area?

andrea-i · 22 Mar 2017, 20:59

Thanks sneaux!

I use Modo, https://modo.thefoundry.co.uk/
Blender can make that kind of quality too and it's free, modo it's not, mostly just a matter of picking a tool and spending lots of time learning it.

Orpheo · 23 Mar 2017, 15:34

Make it aluminum problem solved! ;p
Nice project, keep up the good work mate!

mechmerlin · 28 Mar 2017, 07:07

I really like this, can't wait to see what SA caps look on it

andrea-i · 28 Mar 2017, 10:57

Orpheo, thank but don't give me ideas that can waste even more money than I already have on this thing! ; )

mechmerlin, it's a sad story, but the customised layout (row 3 from the top specifically) won't allow for standard SA keycaps very easily, the best candidates are XDA sets with some extra keys to accomodate.

Update:
Almost done soldering, this weekend I'll configure the controller!
After that, with all measures at hand, I'll design the case and figure out what material to use.
I think I saw some thick pbt plastic sheets in some hardware stores...

andrea-i · 19 Apr 2017, 10:00

So after a quick round of quotes and with more ideas for keyboard cases coming to my mind, I went ahead and bought this:

: 20170419_084724.jpg (218.08 KiB) Viewed 7266 times

Can't say I'm not loving where this little project is taking me

If anyone is looking for a cheap entry point into cncs, that thing comes from spain and is called maduixa cnc by boloberry, it's one of the largest machines I've found for reasonable pricing.

Once I'll manage to get something decent out of it I will post results...it's too bad I will be out for work for one month, I am so looking forward to get into cam machining!!

Ps. forgot to add that the keyboard wiring is all done, thanks to the wonderful tutorials from Matt3o and many other members of this community who went through all the details and made this process super smooth, thanks!

fruitalgorithm · 19 Apr 2017, 11:52

What material will the case be made of?

andrea-i · 19 Apr 2017, 12:11

Almost like the real industrial designers of the 70s, the plan is to machine wood, refine the positive prototype and then cast to very durable epoxy resin, which is a material I'm familiar with.

I'd also like to make industrial cases for standard sized keyboards, like tkl or 60%.

Did I mention I can't wait for it? : D

Myoth · 30 Jul 2017, 21:06

Any update from this ? It's been a long time and nothing has been updated, so many questions ! Is it finished ? Where is it at ?

DustGod · 23 Nov 2017, 00:28

Hey Andrea! This looks super sweet. Any update? I'd really want to see the end product!

andrea-i · 23 Nov 2017, 09:16

I had to move from Portugal back to Italy and that was a major stop, and now I'm damn stuck in buckling springs world (see a topic I just posted on the workshop : ).

I've got my lab back with table saw, cnc machine and everything I need to make the case, now it's just a matter of finding time and energy after work.

Menuhin · 23 Nov 2017, 16:08

Please also show us how you get a R3 (enter-key row) 1.25u key because it seems to me there is not such key (1.25u) made for that middle capslock-enter row.