Changes to Forum

[chuckdee]

Were there recently some changes to the unread posts, spy, and view your posts functions? I find that a specific thread seems to be excluded from that for everyone.

I'm not against a change, and have been advocating that you can exclude threads from your view for a while. But unilaterally doing this seems to be against the normal principles of Deskthority.

[kbdfr]

I strongly resent that whoever didn't appreciate the specific thread you are referring to,
namely the thread "A new US Republican thread 2016",
decided to exclude it from the spy and apparently also from any other view than the Off-topic sub-forum view.

I don't see how this could be called anything else than censorship and an abuse of power.
It is censorship because it actually prevents anyone not actively looking for it to be aware it is active or even exists,
and it is an abuse of power because obviously this technical measure was taken exclusively for personal reasons.

I do expect DT's staff to either make sure the thread in question is again treated like any other DT thread
or to discuss the matter at least between them and then issue a statement why it is not.

[fruitalgorithm]

Calling this censorship or abuse of power is hyperbole. It's just actively moderating a community, nothing else.

[kbdfr]

Calling this "actively moderating a community" is a blatant euphemism.
It is surreptitiously hiding a thread because of political dissent.

[subcat]

I for one welcome this change. For the vast majority of people here, unruly political topics clog up the spy, preventing me from accessing the content this forum was designed to host - keyboard-related discussion, images and videos.

[Wodan]

I personally welcome that his particular thread is not forced into everyones attention every few minutes on a busy day but I also agree with kbdfr that his is a random act of censorship.

If there is a group of people who enjoy engaging in very controversial political or philosophical questions, maybe we can add a sub-section to the offtopic area where such threads can be placed which is excluded from the forum spy OR can be turned on/off in the user preferences.

Making the disappearance of threads less random would certainly help to lift the censorship problem. People looking for these kinds of conversations are welcome to check this forum in addition to the spy. Threads that get out of hand can be moved there by the admins and we can still have total war freedom of speech in there. But that doesn't mean all the hostile posts have to float on the public spy like a turd.

[kbdfr]

If anything is to be banned from the spy, then please the Romanian Corner*.
Most users won't be interested in it nor even understand a single word after all,
and when an eager discussion is finding place there, it occupies a huge part of the spy
to the detriment of other things which I want to (and can) read.

Just a joke of course, and our Romanian friends will excuse it and note their active participation is well acknowledged ,
but obviously it is censorship when an admin covertly hides a thread to the content and main contributor of which he has expressed more than fierce opposition.


*brown print marking irony

[fruitalgorithm]

I for one welcome this change. For the vast majority of people here, unruly political topics clog up the spy, preventing me from accessing the content this forum was designed to host - keyboard-related discussion, images and videos.

Exactly. That thread does not contribute to keeping the atmosphere friendly around here.

If anything is to be banned from the spy, then please the Romanian Corner*.
Most users won't be interested in it nor even understand a single word after all

Subforums with little activity are exactly where spy can help surface content that might go unnoticed otherwise. The local forums go for days without posts, so members check them less often. If a new post shows up in spy, it can get more attention.

but obviously it is censorship when an admin covertly hides a thread to the content and main contributor of which he has expressed more than fierce opposition.

You are a guest on deskthority. If you don't like how it's run, go elsewhere.
https://xkcd.com/1357/

I would be all for removing off topic from spy completely.

edit: strikesthrough

[Slom]

but obviously it is censorship when an admin covertly hides a thread to the content and main contributor of which he has expressed more than fierce opposition.

You are a guest on deskthority. If you don't like how it's run, go elsewhere.
https://xkcd.com/1357/

Kbdfr is a DT club member. Quite the opposite from just guest.

Deskthority is a worldwide, open, free speech forum, wiki and irc community where all registered members can freely participate without a hierarchical nature. It is run as an official club (or society, association), which means we have club members who take care of running things and democratically vote on how to do this. Deskthority doesn't have private owners, the community which forms and supports deskthority runs and owns it, with financial transparency.

[Khers]

The only thing I personally thought was toxic and over the line in the Republican thread was webwit's comments. While I do believe in free speech, I would classify the comments he made as an abuse of free speech.

Personally, I don't quite understand how one (1) thread showing up in the spy every now and again (rather often as it were) is anything even remotely problematic. Just ignore it, or do like scottc did and write a JavaScript browser extension (or use his) to get rid of it from your personal spy. Or maybe contribute more in other threads so that it gets thrown off the spy.

I would much rather have everything show up in spy than arbitrary exclusions of threads certain staff members dislike.

And I very much agree with what kbdfr wrote:

[...]I do expect DT's staff to either make sure the thread in question is again treated like any other DT thread or to discuss the matter at least between them and then issue a statement why it is not.

[andrewjoy]

It should not be hidden like that in my opinion.

If you can hide that , then you could hide anything.

[Madhias]

Thanks for hiding that thread, it makes Deskthority great again.

[ohaimark]

I'm glad it's out of the spy, frankly. Transparency about the disappearance is due, but that topic contributed next to nothing positive so I don't mind the change.

If no one fesses up to the fact that it is hidden, I'll go get my pitchfork.

It may be partial censorship by obscurity, but it isn't flat out censorship by deletion or topic locking. I think that's a reasonable tool to employ on a forum for keyboards where a divisive topic like politics just gets people riled up.

How many problems were solved in that topic? Compromises reached? Discussions held without enmity? Few.

[fruitalgorithm]

Deskthority is a worldwide, open, free speech forum, wiki and irc community

I always thought this community focused on keyboards not free speech at all costs. I might have been mistaken or this mission statement misses focus.

Shouldn't the focus be to provide an inviting forum to people from all walks of live to exchange information about keyboards and foster collaboration?

[Slom]

Deskthority is a worldwide, open, free speech forum, wiki and irc community

I always thought this community focused on keyboards not free speech at all costs. I might have been mistaken or this mission statement misses focus.

Shouldn't the focus be to provide an inviting forum to people from all walks of live to exchange information about keyboards and foster collaboration?

Thats from here: club-member-talk-f39/how-to-become-a-de ... t6798.html

The main point was that kbdfr is one of the owners of deskthority, not a guest as you put it. Not sure in how far this is useful as a mission statement.

[Scarpia]

I am also glad it's out of the spy. It always felt like a car crash site full of bleeding bodies of friends of mine - almost impossible to look away, but I had to force myself to stay out of the carnage simply to keep my sanity and still be able to talk keyboards with people whose keyboard opinions I value.

I have my political views, as I'm sure you all have yours; but I just wish DT could be spared the relentless and omnipresent dumpster fire that is U.S. politics (and political 'news') of 2016-2017.

As a non-member I don't presume to have a say in this, and I never spoke out against the thread since my individual wish to keep keyboarding and political pitchfork-wielding separate is just that - individual.

If it pleases some, just filter out all Offtopic threads from the Spy. But in my opinion, that thread is not 'just' offtopic. It's offtopic AND incendiary, which makes it problematic when it's also really really active, meaning it was constantly in the Spy and thus, in everyone's face.

I really don't think removing it was a politically motivated decision; it may well have been a 'keeping the peace in public spaces' decision, in which case I support it 100%.

[webwit]

You can start a My Little Pony topic on this mechanical keyboard forum, no problem.

You can have wild, even aggressive discussions about your favorite color of My Little Pony, for example your opinion could be:

"My favourite My Little Pony color is blue."

When however the thread dies after many months, because people voted for their favorite My Little Pony color and the vote has ended, and it was not your favorite color, and you then continue to keep the thread alive with daily updates like this:

"My favourite My Little Pony color is blue!"
"My favourite My Little Pony color is blue!"
"My favourite My Little Pony color is blue!"

supported by many links and walls of text about the My Little Pony universe, then you shouldn't be surprised if people keep asking you to move it to a My Little Pony forum. This is not a My Little Pony forum. Don't try to turn it into a My Little Pony forum. The reply to this was to ignore those requests, and continue like this, nagging with it every day:

"My favourite My Little Pony color is blue!!! "
"My favourite My Little Pony color is blue!!! "
"My favourite My Little Pony color is blue!!! "
"My favourite My Little Pony color is blue!!! "
"My favourite My Little Pony color is blue!!! "

We know. You've had your say. Respect this forum. Take your opinion spam to the My Little Pony forum. This is not a My Little Pony forum.

Don't preach me about free speech. I've fought and worked hard for it for this forum, you did not. Because of those efforts, the My Little Pony topic was not removed and the blue My Little Pony fanatic not banned, like on 99.9% of any other forums not about My Little Pony.

No, I'm not going to spend many hours to code a customizable spy filter. Do it yourself. This is the first My Little Pony fanatic in ages, and I'm not putting that effort into it. I'm already regretting putting effort into this reply.

[kbdfr]

[…] Don't preach me about free speech. I've fought and worked hard for it for this forum […].

I can confirm that without any restriction, and you without any doubt deserve every respect for that.
That's certainly one of the reasons why I do not understand (and in fact resent) that the thread has been hidden.
In fact, I do not have the feeling there were only, and constant, and exxagerated, My Little Pony posts in the thread,
but rather that while there were many other contributions, you were utterly exasperated.

Unfortunately...
I just wanted to check how often and how much jacobolus actually did post in the thread in comparison with others
but any search, be it from the function "Search user's post" in users' profiles or from the search function,
obviously cannot be applied to the said thread, and it is not even possible to search the thread itself

[chuckdee]

The only thing I personally thought was toxic and over the line in the Republican thread was webwit's comments. While I do believe in free speech, I would classify the comments he made as an abuse of free speech.

Personally, I don't quite understand how one (1) thread showing up in the spy every now and again (rather often as it were) is anything even remotely problematic. Just ignore it, or do like scottc did and write a JavaScript browser extension (or use his) to get rid of it from your personal spy. Or maybe contribute more in other threads so that it gets thrown off the spy.

I would much rather have everything show up in spy than arbitrary exclusions of threads certain staff members dislike.

And I very much agree with what kbdfr wrote:

[...]I do expect DT's staff to either make sure the thread in question is again treated like any other DT thread or to discuss the matter at least between them and then issue a statement why it is not.

Agreed, and that was my point in making this thread. It was an arbitrary application of power; if anyone else wanted to do it, they'd have to do it outside of a unilateral change to the forum, either by bringing it up to a vote of club members, or doing like scottc did. It's not about this change, it's about the policy of doing such in an unannounced and unilateral way.

Ideals die, in most cases, not with a thunderous event, but in fits and starts with blind acceptance.

Unfortunately...
I just wanted to check how often and how much jacobolus actually did post in the thread in comparison with others
but any search, be it from the function "Search user's post" in users' profiles or from the search function,
obviously cannot be applied to the said thread, and it is not even possible to search the thread itself

Someone did this already in the aforementioned thread, and found that his contributions were not just in that thread by a long shot.

[webwit]

Ideals die, in most cases, not with a thunderous event, but in fits and starts with blind acceptance.

How dare you, you asshole. The Blue My Little Pony assholes fucked with the free speech at their disposal at a mechanical keyboard forum, with pushing the boundaries with their endless nagging. Nag-nag-nag-nag-nag-nag-nag. If ideals die, it is because of you assholes, who just can't cope with the tools at their disposal.

Go to the My Little Pony forum. Stink up that place.

[Slom]

How dare you, you asshole.

And again ...

"Foes are users which will be ignored by default. Posts by these users will not be fully visible. Personal messages from foes are still permitted. Please note that you cannot ignore moderators or administrators."

... nope doesn't help either

[Findecanor]

Hey, webwit. I don't call you names, even if you deserve it.
There is something called proper conduct. Learn it!

[andrewjoy]

My issue with it mainly is nobody said what was happening.

So its not censorship but the result of hiding it without making it clear has had the same effect.

I am glad its gone as honestly i am bored of trying to educated the "My little pony fan" you could lecture him util you pass out from exhaustion but he would never learn , so why keep trying ?

I am just not happy about how its gone.

[Madhias]

If ideals die, it is because of you assholes

Ha, if we would be in a normal internet discussion board I'd put this sentence into my signature, and some members of the spamming thread would have been banned, and not just thrown out of a spy function of a slow moving keyboard forum.

[Slom]

If ideals die, it is because of you assholes

Ha, if we would be in a normal internet discussion board I'd put this sentence into my signature, and some members of the spamming thread would have been banned, and not just thrown out of a spy function of a slow moving keyboard forum.

If webwit was a normal user in any other forum, he would have been banned by now.

[Madhias]

If ideals die, it is because of you assholes

Ha, if we would be in a normal internet discussion board I'd put this sentence into my signature, and some members of the spamming thread would have been banned, and not just thrown out of a spy function of a slow moving keyboard forum.

If webwit was a normal user in any other forum, he would have been banned by now.

No, because it would not have gone this far (because of the banning happening before). Also we would not discuss such things, because everything would have been locked down already by some mods.

[EDIT] But I could not write that sentence then in my signature Oh my.

[Slom]

If webwit was a normal user in any other forum, he would have been banned by now.

No, because it would not have gone this far (because of the banning happening before). Also we would not discuss such things, because everything would have been locked down already by some mods.

I don't really get what people's issue with that thread is. I skimmed it occasionally and never found it especially offensive.
It's in Off-Topic after all.

[EDIT] But I could not write that sentence then in my signature Oh my.

That made me smile

[ohaimark]

My issue with it is that it kept people who couldn't resist its bait posts fighting. I like most of those people, and the topic was hurting the forum as a whole because none of them could bring themselves to ignore it. Both parties are part of the problem in this case, much like the Mr. Nobody debacle a little while back.

It would be nice if Webwit could keep a civil tongue, and a vote would have been nice as well. Nonetheless, I agree with his choice.

[Slom]

Isn't that kind of a circular argument? The issue with the thread is that people have issues with the thread O_o

[ohaimark]

In this case, circularity doesn't mean invalidity. That is how most forums would delete a thread entirely.

Nonetheless, I would argue that you missed my point. It wasn't that people had an issue with the thread that made it a problem. It was that those people couldn't resist arguing in the topic when constant updates were happening in it.

The thread annoyed me, but I mostly stayed out of it.

I think that de-spying the topic will deescalate the issue. Out of sight, out of mind.

Addendum: there's no reason why anyone should need to install a browser extension to block off topic threads on a keyboard forum. I get that people want to talk politics, but I also understand why that topic is best to discuss quietly or elsewhere. Why needlessly divide the forum?

We can handle divisive things like IBM vs Cherry amicably, but real world policy is a flat out nightmare.