Is this legal in U.S.?

[Mr.Nobody]

[kbdfr]

Would it be legal in China?
Would you post similar videos made in China on Chinese sites, asking if it is legal in China?

[Nuum]

Wow, what a descriptive thread title...

[002]

I guess people wouldn't dare to resist the police one bit in China lest they be thrown in a kill van or something.
It's kinda weird that the only real gritty vids I see from China are those where some guy gets shredded up by industrial machinery or a bunch of guys get electrocuted or something. Not much dissonance with the police or anything...maybe every now and then some people are angry in Hong Kong but that's about it.

[seebart]

No idea, but since this seems to be legal...

moab-gif.gif (3.21 MiB) Viewed 6567 times

[n__dles]

Couple of anecdotes regarding the first video.

What you're seeing isn't cop on citizen violence. That's just the way things are across 110th street. Scuffles like that take place many times a day, every day in Harlem. At first the Cop was being a cop, not doing anything wrong as far as I can see. At 1:20 he stops being a cop. This is just two guys airing out their differences with fisticuffs. At least that's how I see it.

A friend's father sewed his wild oats as a beat cop for a few years before he got his Law degree and become a prosecutor. Working some rough areas he only pulled his gun a handful of times and never fired it. But he got in scuffles like this constantly. Sometimes they'd charge the guy with resisting arrest for the altercation, but rarely with assaulting an officer.

He laments that now a days that it's got where cops immediately draw their guns (and sometimes they go off) and the amount of cases that come through his office for felony assault that are little more than a half-hearted push.

[n__dles]

No idea, but since this seems to be legal...

moab-gif.gif

Ist das der V-2? Es ist sehr gut!

[vivalarevolución]

Lol, maybe you could ask this question to a group of attorneys that could elaborate on the legality of the situations involved rather than keyboard jockeys.

[seebart]

No idea, but since this seems to be legal...

moab-gif.gif

Ist das der V-2? Es ist sehr gut!

No, it's the MOAB which the V-2 guys only dreamed of. Aside from that your comment is pretty whack.

[n__dles]

No idea, but since this seems to be legal...

moab-gif.gif

Ist das der V-2? Es ist sehr gut!

No, it's the MOAB which the V-2 guys only dreamed of. Aside from that your comment is pretty whack.

Whack how? Wrong case, or gender, or..?

[seebart]

Whack how? Wrong case, or gender, or..?

Thanks for the nice racist hate PM n__dles.

[codemonkeymike]

Come try for yourself

[andrewjoy]

All i see in the first video is an abusive nobhead getting arrested.

[chuckdee]

All i see in the first video is an abusive nobhead getting arrested.

Abusive ... how? Just curious.

[andrewjoy]

All i see in the first video is an abusive nobhead getting arrested.

Abusive ... how? Just curious.

the way he is shouting and screaming "i have that on film" to the police officer as if that is some sort of the threat .

Sure the police officer could have been a bit more restrained , but random people don't get into situations like this .

[chuckdee]

All i see in the first video is an abusive nobhead getting arrested.

Abusive ... how? Just curious.

the way he is shouting and screaming "i have that on film" to the police officer as if that is some sort of the threat .

He wasn't yelling that. The other guy was. How was the guy that got assaulted, threatened with arrest, and had his id taken after he showed it (which he was under no obligation to do), abusive?

Sure the police officer could have been a bit more restrained , but random people don't get into situations like this .

And you really believe that. I believe that's the problem with the big divide. People that don't have it happen to them give no credence when the people that have it happen to them tell them what's going on. Then, when something finally happens that they can see, the lens of that disbelief changes facts. Like the fact that he wasn't saying that he had it on film. That's blatantly obvious, but you thought it was true. And that was your justification.

[Ray]

And I thought I had Mr.Nobody on my ignore list.
Oh wasn't logged in, fixed that.

[Kurplop]

Without knowing the context of these situations it's hard to say whether the police actions were justified. I've known people in law enforcement that abuse their authority and I know the feeling of being ticketed for an infraction of the law which I deemed stupid (seatbelt violation). Most of us don't like being told what to do but it's the cost of order. We can pick, hire, or elect people to enforce the laws (including the ones we don't like) or we can live in chaos and lawlessness. In the end, I think it's best to choose our bullies; at least there's some accountability built into that system.

Most of the victims in these cases probably could have kept the situation from escalating by cooperating. I'm not excusing the bad behavior by the police but I think it is common sense to try to avoid conflicts with authorities; especially when they're armed.

[n__dles]

And you really believe that. I believe that's the problem with the big divide. People that don't have it happen to them give no credence when the people that have it happen to them tell them what's going on.

Have you had it happen to you?

[seebart]

And you really believe that. I believe that's the problem with the big divide. People that don't have it happen to them give no credence when the people that have it happen to them tell them what's going on.

Have you had it happen to you?

Good question.

[chuckdee]

And you really believe that. I believe that's the problem with the big divide. People that don't have it happen to them give no credence when the people that have it happen to them tell them what's going on.

Have you had it happen to you?

Indeed yes. More than once. And I've never broken a law, nor approached that line. I also know several people that I am close to that have had it done for no reason.

I am hesitant to even approach going into it. Because those same prejudices will very likely kick in (especially the anecdotal one, in my past experience when I did talk about it, i.e well, in your case, I can see it. But that's just you and it's different, etc, etc), and a forum is not a place to convince anyone of anything.

And, as a follow on, knowing what the officers really wanted (hint, it had nothing to do with the law), and knowing that trying to assert myself would end up in this situation, even if the law was in my favor, and being the kind of person I am (I just want to live my life), I gave them what they wanted, and de-escalated. Even as every time I did it, I felt a bit of myself die.

And despite it all, I still believe in the police, and the idea of them. Just not their ability to regulate themselves.

[fohat]

even if the law was in my favor,

And this is the root core of what is sickening and terrifying to me, in the current state of affairs in the US:

that the Chief Executive (and his minions) have no real knowledge, or even intuitive feeling, for the need and value of the rule of law, and actually holds it in contempt, using his own disdain for it as a bargaining lever against those who still respect and follow it.

[chuckdee]

even if the law was in my favor,

And this is the root core of what is sickening and terrifying to me, in the current state of affairs in the US:

that the Chief Executive (and his minions) have no real knowledge, or even intuitive feeling, for the need and value of the rule of law, and actually holds it in contempt, using his own disdain for it as a bargaining lever against those who still respect and follow it.

I once had the law on my side going into the courtroom. But not the money for a lawyer, but did all of the legwork myself, and had a sympathetic lawyer do some preparation for me pro bono. But they said, depending on the judge, no matter how well I prepared, it wouldn't matter. I didn't believe her. After all, the system is supposed to work, right?

When I started quoting case law, the judge told me if I wanted case law, I should have hired a lawyer, and without one, the law was what he said it was. I couldn't believe he said that. And the lawyer told me afterwards, to make it worse, unless an appeal is based on very solid and unimpeachable case law and precedent, the appeals court is a joke, as they are hesitant to overturn a Judge's ruling, because it could be done to them.

There is something wrong in the world today, and I don't know what it is. But it's, IMO, not partisan. Absolute power does corrupt absolutely. But even worse, non-absolute power appears to corrupt also.

[seebart]

Interesting perspective chuckdee, thanks for sharing.

[Menuhin]

I guess people wouldn't dare to resist the police one bit in China lest they be thrown in a kill van or something.
It's kinda weird that the only real gritty vids I see from China are those where some guy gets shredded up by industrial machinery or a bunch of guys get electrocuted or something. Not much dissonance with the police or anything...maybe every now and then some people are angry in Hong Kong but that's about it.

I thought the situation was like how you put it until I read these news:

https://youtu.be/iPw3VuhbKeM?t=52

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KswLIKKzPOA

[Menuhin]

These have been in the news some time ago:

American Police fire more shots in 1 day than some countries (e.g. Germany) do in 1 year

It didn't surprise me with all the Hollywood police gun-fight movies, every average US police perhaps wants to be a hero like those in the movies - fire some (or a lot of) shots, kill some bad people. Gun culture is one thing, but not following instructions during arrest as if that is a heroic act is another matter.

Anyways, I don't know what actually happened in OP's first video, but resisting to be arrested by a police is a no-no and he was quite stupid to do that, no matter how wrong the police might be on the spot. The correct way is to seek help from one's lawyer later. (Not possible for those dragged into some of those black sites though).

[seebart]

It's impossible to compare Germany to the USA in this sense Menuhin.

[fohat]

There is something wrong in the world today, and I don't know what it is. But it's, IMO, not partisan.

I am afraid that I have to disagree with you there. As a general rule, today, I believe that "the Left" holds the rule of law in much higher regard and respect than "the Right" and I think that there are 2 primary components to it:

First, for at least a generation now, "the Right" (and by "the Right" I am referring to the real power - the 0.001% who buy and sell Congress, not the tens of millions of ordinary people who are hoodwinked into voting for Republican candidates time after time) has become accustomed to having the legal system bent dramatically in their favor by the Congressional votes that they have purchased. By employing various tricks involving smoke and mirrors and misdirection and dis-information they have managed to garner nearly half of the votes in a majority of elections, which in combination with outlandish gerrymandering and ruthless voter suppression has been sufficient to keep them firmly in power the majority of that time.

Second, although "the Left" has attempted to uphold the very existence of the government as the primary guardian of the very structure of society, as the mechanism by which the playing field is kept level. "The Right" in its quest to extricate itself from social responsibility, basic human dignity, and any shred of fairness, has cynically employed religion (in this case "Christianity" (that is, the word, not the actual teachings of Jesus who abhorred the subjugation of the common people by the rich and powerful, and the denigration of society's outcasts) as the basis of many of its assaults on "social issues" generally revolving around sexuality) which has often been enough to tip the scales in its favor.

The spectacular failure of "the Left" to accumulate support for truth, justice, and the American Way has allowed some of the most amoral and predatory segments of the population to falsely claim "the moral high ground" and to pretend that they are the "righteous" and "patriotic" ones, which is absolutely untrue.

[Menuhin]

It's impossible to compare Germany to the USA in this sense Menuhin.

Yes, that is unfair in a certain way.

In terms of area, Germany is smaller than the Texas state, but Texas state is not 1/365 of the size of the whole US.
In terms of population, Germany population is not 1/365 of the US population.

It is difficult to compare though, in terms of the prevailing fire arm culture and the warship of violence and war (e.g. in video games, in the media productions). Not to mention, the majority of the (non-native) population especially the philosophy of their governing bodies in North America has a cultural heritage of the winning colonizing warlords, e.g. British Empire, French colonial Empire, Spanish Empire. We have to believe, for the sake of future, there is still some possibility to nurture the concept of peace in their heart though.

Spoiler:

[seebart]

It's impossible to compare Germany to the USA in this sense Menuhin.

Yes, that is unfair in a certain way.

In terms of area, Germany is smaller than the Texas state, but Texas state is not 1/365 of the size of the whole US.
In terms of population, Germany population is not 1/365 of the US population.

It is difficult to compare though, in terms of the prevailing fire arm culture and the warship of violence and war (e.g. in video games, in the media productions). Not to mention, the majority of the (non-native) population especially the philosophy of their governing bodies in North America has a cultural heritage of the winning colonizing warlords, e.g. British Empire, French colonial Empire, Spanish Empire. We have to believe, for the sake of future, there is still some possibility to nurture the concept of peace in their heart though.

Spoiler:

For once we can agree! But I also get the sense that many have a wrong picture of Germany, we do have violence in our society and it's on the rise in recent years. Due to our gun laws it's still somewhat difficult to buy a gun but if you really want one you'll be able to get one.