Hi-Profile PBT Dye-sub (the time has come)

[matt3o]

it should not!

[Sythe]

at the very end we'll see how each kit performed. Based on that we'll evaluate what keys could be added. The set performed relatively well, but the sub-kits didn't sell that much, ie: people mainly bought the base kits.

Fair enough, guess I'll have to hold out until the end and then make a decision. May just have to stick to a Triumph+base 60% or else I'll be spending too much.

[nickle3246]

I think a triumph/teal colored Esc key would go well with the red enter key, what do you think? Would it be possible to add it to the base kit at some point?

[Petch]

Just saw the addition of 75% on the MD comments- thank you!

[zslane]

...the sub-kits didn't sell that much...

And as usual the ISO and International kits underperform significantly. If this is because of shipping and customs charges, then the EU desperately needs its own version of MassDrop (and probably one that isn't "members only", since that seems to be anathema to European sensibilities).

[lossendae]

And as usual the ISO and International kits underperform significantly. If this is because of shipping and customs charges, then the EU desperately needs its own version of MassDrop (and probably one that isn't "members only", since that seems to be anathema to European sensibilities).

Well, keyboard customisation is (not yet ?) a thing in Europe.

Most of the cool keyboards are hard to find (if findable) and very expansive compared to the US.
There are no Plum in ISO, Varmilio is in the process of launching some keyboards...

Furthermore, keycaps sets are almost always exclusively in AINSI. International kits miss some keys, are more expansive not counting transport fee.

On various forums, european enthousiast uses AINSI keyboards instead of their local ISO variants.

Demand can't grow if there are no incentive, and offer won't grow if it cannot reach moq.

I'm a starter in this community, the novatouch is my first worthy keyboard (I was a di novo guy before ahah) and the only keycaps kit available at an affordable price was a Vortex kit. Plain, black, boring. It was 3 years ago and nothing has changed since.

Massdrop is also not really known over there.

Oh! And yes, the fact that we must register to just look at things in a no go. Not really a sensibility thing.
We may be curious, but Massdrop process is not inclusive. The website is only in english, require registering and prospect of paying huge taxes, huge transport fee, waiting months on a product which we don't really know if it will please us and will be a pain to return.
When i go on Massdrop it feels like "we will sell you things, but we don't really care about you"

[hansichen]

...the sub-kits didn't sell that much...

And as usual the ISO and International kits underperform significantly. If this is because of shipping and customs charges, then the EU desperately needs its own version of MassDrop (and probably one that isn't "members only", since that seems to be anathema to European sensibilities).

Hm, international and UK together are 150 kits, with 1500 base kits, so 10% EU people. 90 international kits on 1500 base kits are around 6%. Let's compare it to dasher: 100 ISO kits on 1250 base kits, 45 norde kits on 1250 base kits, that's 3.6% of all kits. Other sets like plum/carbon should have been worse than this one too (but we should take in mind that the Chinese numbers are still missing). Either way 90 international kits seem pretty good in regard of the magic 100 moq with gmk kits which was always failed till now.
We can now talk about prices (about Americans getting their tkl set for ~100$, europeans having to pay ~200$ with international kit) but I think that especially Reddit shows that there are much more Americans interested in keyboards than europeans. So it's kind of naturally that the set will lack the support by the community. I don't know if there was a survey yet but it could be quite interesting to see some numbers about that.
A EU warehouse wouldn't benefit much as massdrop would have to pay the import fees, it would only be more comfortable as you don't have to go to customs which can be really annoying or expensive if you have to pay the shipping company for that. And shipping in Europe would be quite expensive too.
As we talk about shipping: I really hate massdrop for raising the shipping costs, a tkl kit had 7$ shipping to Germany on the first day and then they raised it to 16,99$ on the 2nd day, that was a really bummer.

The "issues" with this set are in my opinion in the colorway (I like it but Reddit is more the flashy place), the pricing 86$ (dasher was 68$) and that people don't know how this profile and quality will perform. I think all this together makes many people join for a basic minimum to try a profile (eg numpad is heavily underperforming in comparison to dasher, as a rough estimate 33% bought a numpad with this set, 45% with dasher/dancer).
If this set turns out great in quality and profile I would expect more people willing to spend their money and not buy just the bare minimum.

[Petch]

ISO not being as widely supported in custom key sets doesn't mean keyboard customisation isn't a thing in Europe...

The reason the kits sold poorly is because a lot of people have swapped to ANSI after their native layout was neglected by the community for years, and that we have to pay extortionate tax on the imports.

For my order, I'm looking at over £120 in customs, duty, and fees. So instead I'll be using a forwarder to cut that down to £30. Most people don't want to risk using one, or can't be bothered with the hassle.

[zslane]

Well, keyboard customisation is (not yet ?) a thing in Europe.

Furthermore, keycaps sets are almost always exclusively in AINSI. International kits miss some keys, are more expansive not counting transport fee.

I think the member of this website would disagree with your first statement. DT is primarily European in its composition.

ISO/INT kits are expensive because hardly anyone orders them. You're not going to get the kind of volume discounts that ANSI kits get until you can get the same number of users buying into them.

Maybe the growth of Chinese vendors will open up more channels for ISO/INT keycap sets. They seem to specialize in sets that are more affordable, which helps offset the lack of volume orders.

[codemonkeymike]

All of the hate for Massdrop is pretty unjustified. They are an American company that deals legally in the USA. They pay taxes and you pay import duty if your country has it. It's in english because everyone in the company is in the US. They are members only because of requirements from their distributers. If it would be profitable/feasible for them to operate in Europe I am sure they would, because they are a corporation with an interest to make money. People don't seem to be chomping at the bit to make an Europe based Massdrop, because it's not easy to work in the off-price market or even harder yet the business of bringing someone else's new product to market with your own capital.

[POTV]

Forgive me if this question has been afsked before - but why not make these keycaps for buckling spring switches. Is the market too small?

[Scottex]

Forgive me if this question has been afsked before - but why not make these keycaps for buckling spring switches. Is the market too small?

workshop-f7/spherical-buckling-spring-t ... 11186.html

[POTV]

Thanks - I know there are other attempts on DT. I was just curios about the market aspect...

[zslane]

I just don't think there is enough demand to make production of a fully sculptured spherical keycap family for buckling spring switches economically feasible.

[codemonkeymike]

Thanks - I know there are other attempts on DT. I was just curios about the market aspect...

No one has done it before so there is a high risk, low reward. But we will know better how well a new buckling spring keycap can sell when Ellipse's Model F revival keyboard is done. That all being said thats my opinion on the matter, not sure about matt3o's motivation.

[matt3o]

if we could sell individual ISO kits for each country at the same price of ANSI, they would still not sell much because they ship from US. Shipping to Europe is expensive (shipping is often free within your country), the risk of lost packages pretty high and import taxes (and in some countries import paperwork) impact by a 20% on the final cost.

If you consider all of the above, it is incredible the dedication and enthusiasm of the European crowd. If the roles were reversed I seriously doubt that Americans would buy anything from an European company.

That being said, it's not only the intl kit that is not performing well, but everything except for the very basic sets. The set is new, nobody knows how it feels, so I don't blame anybody. My estimate was around 2500-3000 and we are well past that already but Massdrop is probably more lean toward the casual user than the enthusiast.

[Techno Trousers]

I just don't think there is enough demand to make production of a fully sculptured spherical keycap family for buckling spring switches economically feasible.

I'm very grateful to rsbseb for giving it a try. I sure hope he proves the conventional wisdom wrong with SBS.

[zslane]

I just don't think there is enough demand to make production of a fully sculptured spherical keycap family for buckling spring switches economically feasible.

I'm very grateful to rsbseb for giving it a try. I sure hope he proves the conventional wisdom wrong with SBS.

I totally agree. A rising tide raises all boats, right? The more cool new stuff that comes along, the more people see a vibrant hobby/community, and the more it grows, making it easier to reach MOQs in the future.

[rsbseb]

I just don't think there is enough demand to make production of a fully sculptured spherical keycap family for buckling spring switches economically feasible.

I'm very grateful to rsbseb for giving it a try. I sure hope he proves the conventional wisdom wrong with SBS.

I totally agree. A rising tide raises all boats, right? The more cool new stuff that comes along, the more people see a vibrant hobby/community, and the more it grows, making it easier to reach MOQs in the future.

SBS is definitely a high risk venture as nothing about the project transfers into any other segment. Everything is unique to the IBM keyboards. However I do believe there is a solid future with buckling spring switches and suspect we will continue to see that segment grow, Especially if new and innovative products supporting the use of buckling spring switches is made available.

[XMIT]

Are the IBM buckling spring patents all expired now? If so that should open the flood gates for commercial development. US patent 4118611 would have expired in 1994.

[zslane]

Well, if we're going to revive an old switch design from the past (like was done with Hall Effect), I'd rather see beamsprings brought back to life, not buckling springs. I just don't see the value of resurrecting a switch whose primary (if not sole) benefit was its lower cost to produce. If the patents on the buckling spring design have expired, then surely the patents on the beamspring design have too. Besides, spherical + beamspring has all the historical precedence, while spherical + buckling spring has none. There's more "vintage authenticity" in marrying a future version of MT3 with beamspring switches than anything else.

[FSund]

Is there any chance of adding some 1.5u R4/R5 mods to the Extra Mods kits? I don't care what legends they have (blanks work just fine). It would improve compatibility greatly for me and my strange 75% boards.

[Petch]

If you're looking for any more suggestions (unlikely!) R1 /dev/tty cap for boards without fkeys and R2 backspace in the RGB/CMY kits

[lossendae]

All of the hate for Massdrop is pretty unjustified.

I don't see much hate on Massdrop, the site is barely known outside of enthousiast communities (not limited to keyboard).

I suspect it will remain the same for a while as companies raises real interests in Europe once they branch out in Europe, or everywhere else for that matter.

The same happened for other successful US company, like Amazon, Uber, etc...

[evoman]

Thanks - I know there are other attempts on DT. I was just curios about the market aspect...

No one has done it before so there is a high risk, low reward. But we will know better how well a new buckling spring keycap can sell when Ellipse's Model F revival keyboard is done. That all being said thats my opinion on the matter, not sure about matt3o's motivation.

From my perspective, I am not interested in swapping my Model M keycaps because I like my Model M keycaps. I swapped caps on my other keyboard because their low profile drove me nuts, but I find the Model M comfy

[evoman]

Are the IBM buckling spring patents all expired now? If so that should open the flood gates for commercial development. US patent 4118611 would have expired in 1994.

I assume that the production by Unicomp means that there is not a lot of room for competitors. I'm surprised that no one has resurrected beamsprings, but maybe it is because they are expensive to produce and there is a limited market

[matt3o]

got enough samples to dress a full keyboard. throwing just some random pictures, tomorrow some of my initial impressions (which are really good btw)

please note these are still 3d printed (ie: not the still the final product)

[Techno Trousers]

Nice! I'm liking the look of the flat bottom row.

[consolation]

Lord Matt3o PUBH, please bless your most faithful and loyal 60%ers with a Two Piece 'tab' and 'caps lock' kit, so we can bathe in the goodness of base + colour kit builds; without polluting our orders with the accursed TKL modifier heresy.

Or, Lord, guide the two missing caps of 60% Matt3o to Your divine colour kits, so they can be named 60%/Colour kits, for it will be good and bring more of the faithful into Your light. The faithful will be mightily pleased to tithe a bit more to have your two missing caps in the holy kits of colour; be they Triumphant, ordinary, or full of colour.

[matt3o]

Lord Matt3o PUBH, [...]

LOL!

Make the heathens buy more keycaps and your prayer will be granted