K-Type Skepticism

[ohaimark]

"After physically testing every available Cherry MX style mechanical switch on the market, Input Club found that the only manufacturer that surpassed Cherry MX’s tolerances was Kaihua."

"To enhance the radiant backlighting, the keycaps are made with shine-through legends to make the K-Type really pop off your desktop. Carefully selected from Tai-Hao..."

Input Club: please share your testing methodology and results. My experiences with Kailh switches have been sub-par for the most part (they're a cheap switch), yet they're being upsold in a $200 keyboard.

The Halo page went live after I checked it. I still want to know what tolerances are better, though, and why it matters for this application.

Also, though Tai-Hao caps are better than base options, it seems like something a bit more substantial could have been sourced.

The firmware seems well developed, but that's the only real standout feature I'm seeing. HELP! I'm skeptical. Prove that the keyboard is meritorious. Justify these seemingly overpriced "features" to me.

Conclusions so far:

• The Halo switches might be good, but they weren't widely distributed or vetted by the community in advance (though a few reviews were released). That leaves significant questions about their actual performance/feel. There are also discrepancies in their graphs relative to Topre. Finally, they offer no starting spring tension. Many complained about that in XMIT keyboard switches.

• The keycaps, according to a gent on Telegram, were chosen specifically because they could be optimized for backlighting. I suppose that makes sense, but it seems like other options could have been explored.

• Most of my complaints would disappear if a fully assembled "barebones" version of the keyboard (no switches or caps) came to market. I could always adopt the Kailh switches later if they are truly the best switches available. There would be no additional cost to Input Club, as the packaging and assembly process would be unaltered. They'd simply be pulling the keyboard off the line a bit earlier.

• I'm not sure what the bill of materials amounts to on this particular keyboard, but the markup seems as though it would be significant. I don't have an issue with Input Club making money, I'm simply not sure if it's worth a flagship price when compared with other offerings.

• The firmware/programmability is well done. The case and backlighting appear to be great as well.

[seebart]

"After physically testing every available Cherry MX style mechanical switch on the market, Input Club found that the only manufacturer that surpassed Cherry MX’s tolerances was Kaihua."

I'm sure Chyros will love to hear that.

So is this what you're talking about?

https://input.club/k-type/

350x700px-LL-b7cb716c_p8qGsg.gif (863.87 KiB) Viewed 11625 times

[ohaimark]

Yep. The quoted bits can be found here: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x ... l-keyboard

[seebart]

Yep. The quoted bits can be found here: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x ... l-keyboard

Right, so what's the pricetag on that RGB nap?

[Khers]

Yep. The quoted bits can be found here: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x ... l-keyboard

Right, so what's the pricetag on that RGB nap?

$199

[seebart]

Yep. The quoted bits can be found here: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x ... l-keyboard

Right, so what's the pricetag on that RGB nap?

$199

That's not exactly cheap in todays field of China competition. Better be solid then, not that I would ever buy it.

Oh look I'm blind again...

...yet they're being upsold in a $200 keyboard.

Anyway you should be skeptical Mr. Kingpin. Anything else would worry me.

[Wodan]

I am also unhyped by the board but probably because so many other great boards happened since this was introduced. You can get Kailh TKL keyboards with great build quality (Spyder87) for 40-50$ and I am not a fan of the hotpluggable switch hype we're currently seeing on Reddit ...

Also remembering how the first batch of Zeals custom made switches turned out makes me doubt it is a great idea to go STRAIGHT into full scale production with a new, custom switch ...

Anyway, I might be wrong and trading my Vintage Blacks for Haatalios soon ...

[Techno Trousers]

The price doesn't seem unreasonable, considering the aluminum frame and PBT keys. I'm interested to read some reviews of these "Halo" switches, but I'm skeptical about them too, as far as being superior to Cherry MX.

[ohaimark]

The Spyder 87 is all metal too. Aluminum isn't all that expensive to manufacture en masse because it is so soft. Tai-Hao sets retail for $50 and (probably) cost significantly less in bulk.

So far I'm seeing RGB (meh) and firmware (yeah!) as the cost-carrying features.

[Stabilized]

I have to admit that I'm only really interested in these new switches and how they sound/feel. Apparently the Halo True variant is modelled on the force curve of Topre: https://input.club/the-comparative-guid ... halo-true/
I am amazingly skeptical as I have heard the statement "feels like Topre" for both Mod switches and Zealios, neither of which felt like Topre..

[ohaimark]

"The true innovation invented with the Halo is the recreation of an entirely smooth curve, combined with a lack of pre-load or tension on the spring at rest."

Weren't people complaining about a lack of spring pre-load in XMIT's keyboards?

[seebart]

I have to admit that I'm only really interested in these new switches and how they sound/feel. Apparently the Halo True variant is modelled on the force curve of Topre: https://input.club/the-comparative-guid ... halo-true/
I am amazingly skeptical as I have heard the statement "feels like Topre" for both Mod switches and Zealios, neither of which felt like Topre..

Same here especially if the Halo True variant is modelled on the force curve of Topre.

[ohaimark]

Also, the graphs don't line up:

[seebart]

Also, the graphs don't line up:

But they tried, that's probably the best they could do.

[chuckdee]

Input Club: please share your testing methodology and results. My experiences with Kailh switches have been sub-par for the most part (they're a cheap switch), yet they're being upsold in a $200 keyboard.

Did you check the input club site? Or the comments on MD? They've answered that already.

https://input.club/the-comparative-guid ... -switches/

https://input.club/the-comparative-guid ... hua-brown/

https://input.club/the-problem-with-mec ... h-reviews/

The Spyder 87 is all metal too. Aluminum isn't all that expensive to manufacture en masse because it is so soft. Tai-Hao sets retail for $50 and (probably) cost significantly less in bulk.

So far I'm seeing RGB (meh) and firmware (yeah!) as the cost-carrying features.

Are the ones in the Spyder 87 CNC'd? You can be aluminium, but not CNC'd from high grade aluminium.

Just to be up front here, I'm not buying it. I don't like TKLs is the biggest reason. But I can see the amount of work that they've put into it, and don't think the price is out of line for what you're getting, even if you don't particularly like what they're offering.

[ohaimark]

I'm aware of the graphs. They mentioned tolerances as well -- I want to know what tolerances they were looking at, and why.

Edit: when I first checked, the Input Club site gave a 404 on their Halo switch page. Clearly it went live later.

[ohaimark]

As to the CNC, it may take time but there is little wear on the tooling. Still not horrifically expensive in bulk, though it absolutely is more expensive.

Also, the key here is that I want to believe (X-Files style) that the keyboard is worth the money. I'm just having trouble justifying it based on its components. We're only talking a delta of $30 in terms of what I would consider final acceptable pricing, but it still leaves me skeptical.

[seebart]

You shouldn't "want to believe"...bad for objectivity but I know you know that.

[ohaimark]

There's a difference between wanting to believe and jumping to conclusions in support of a belief. I hope to stay away from the latter.

[DanielT]

My 2c on this board :
1. It's just a TKL, without physical layout alternatives the fact that it is programmable has almost ZERO value
2. Caps are sub-par , cheap looking and give a 20$ salvation army look to the board
3. If the photos of the switches are the for the real switches that are used 200$ is too much, they look like something built on a ship. Maybe they feel amazing and are the ultimate thing but the look throws me off.
4. Why not make it a kit, so that people can customize the layout use other switches if they like to

Except for the RGB, which is not something amazing for me I can get something that does almost the same for 50-70$ shipped. A Magiforce 68 is for example 50$ shipped as a kit, top plate is alu, decent quality etc..

[paecific.jr]

I'd be interested in seeing a review of the keyboard from somebody... Chyros...

[codemonkeymike]

Standard deskthority faire, complain about a keyboard being too expensive for xyz tenkeyless/60% then goes off and spends $200+ on a retro keyboard then $30 on a controller and dozens of hours on restoring it. IMO K-Type seems refined and has quite a bit of love put into it, I am sure no one is getting rich off of a $200 custom keyboard sold on massdrop.

[chuckdee]

I'm aware of the graphs. They mentioned tolerances as well -- I want to know what tolerances they were looking at, and why.

Edit: when I first checked, the Input Club site gave a 404 on their Halo switch page. Clearly it went live later.

You can ask on the MD page if there is information that you feel isn't supplied, right?

[chuckdee]

I'd be interested in seeing a review of the keyboard from somebody... Chyros...

https://www.keychatter.com/2017/05/11/r ... op-k-type/

[ohaimark]

Standard deskthority faire, complain about a keyboard being too expensive for xyz tenkeyless/60% then goes off and spends $200+ on a retro keyboard then $30 on a controller and dozens of hours on restoring it. IMO K-Type seems refined and has quite a bit of love put into it, I am sure no one is getting rich off of a $200 custom keyboard sold on massdrop.

That's a straw man fallacy, thank you very much. Vintage collecting differs from purchasing a modern keyboard in any number of ways. I don't have an issue with what they're making off of the keyboard. I'm simply not sure if it's worth the asking price. Skepticism does not automatically mean dislike (though some people here vehemently dislike it, certainly).

You can ask on the MD page if there is information that you feel isn't supplied, right?

I don't really trust the people at Massdrop to convey Haata's/Input Club's arguments or data successfully. They have even more of an agenda than Haata himself, who is invested in the product at this point. There's nothing wrong with that, though. In fact, I'd like to hear from Haata himself about the switch choice and its tolerances.

As to the review, that gives me hope for the switches. I'm still not sure if they're worth a premium (knowing the BOM cost for the keyboard would help me make a final judgment on the pricing) when compared with other switch options, though.

I think that a barebones option would have alleviated most of my skepticism, frankly. Enthusiasts are forced to pay for stuff that we don't need. If the Kailh switches had seen some community exposure before being launched in a flagship product, that would have been ideal too.

[chuckdee]

It's not the people on MD - they're there and answering questions, i.e.

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x ... lk/1682576

Also, a different venue:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb ... ing_about/

[codemonkeymike]

That's a straw man fallacy

Yep

thank you very much

Your welcome

Vintage collecting differs from purchasing a modern keyboard in any number of ways

Collecting is collecting, using is a different thing

I don't have an issue with what they're making off of the keyboard. I'm simply not sure if it's worth the asking price. Skepticism does not automatically mean dislike (though some people here vehemently dislike it, certainly)

No problem with skepticism but that was not the way the conversation went, IMO. Which I was expressing my opinion of the absurdity of how the conversation went, which was not of your doing.

[ohaimark]

I just sent HaaTa a PM. It would take forever to get my questions answered in the masses of comments flowing into the AMA and Massdrop topic system. It makes more sense to use a forum for this sort of discussion.

I should clarify that I would want a barebones keyboard in a pre-assembled state, not a kit. That wouldn't increase costs -- they'd simply need to yank the keyboard off of the line a few steps earlier in the assembly process.

[Stabilized]

Standard deskthority faire, complain about a keyboard being too expensive for xyz tenkeyless/60% then goes off and spends $200+ on a retro keyboard then $30 on a controller and dozens of hours on restoring it. IMO K-Type seems refined and has quite a bit of love put into it, I am sure no one is getting rich off of a $200 custom keyboard sold on massdrop.

I don't think that was ever the argument, it was more that you can get RGB aluminium keyboards from China with Kailh switches for like $50 (example). So the only thing that really sets this apart is the USB-C and the programmability. Now if you think that programmability is worth $150, then sure thing, but some of us don't and thus think the keyboard is overpriced.
Obviously this is not the same for many other people, as it appears to be selling well

[subcat]

Collecting is collecting, using is a different thing

Since when were the two mutually exclusive?