K-Type Skepticism

[PollandAkuma]

My rule of thumb.

If you like MX Clears more than MX Browns, you'll like the Halo Clears. It has more of a feeling like an MX style switch with awesome tactility.

Otherwise Halo True is for you. The Halo True has a gentle and smooth lead-in (due to lower preload) and higher final resistance to help you not bottom out.

I've never experienced anything other than Blues and Browns.

So was looking for more tactile feedback and the logic choice was Clears. Also moving up from Browns to Clears would already help me not bottom out, right?

Well any other tips to help me visualize them and make the correct pick?

Hey dream3, just wanted to say from my experience stock MX clears are hard to bottom out if you lightly type, but it might be a bit heavy, so look into Ergo Clears and Zealios. I also really recommend Topre, I just got one recently and because the switch is made of rubber, when you bottom out it does not hurt your fingers. If you are interested in topre, I recommend a Realforce, which also come in silent models. Personally I have a HHKB Pro 2, which I like very much.

[livingspeedbump]

If you are interested in topre, I recommend a Realforce, which also come in silent models.

There are silenced HHKB models as well, the Type-S.

[livingspeedbump]

Finally, did you build the K-Type for the general public or the community?

I feel like this is pretty obvious just by looking at the keyboard and product features of the board. Top and bottom RGB, standard bottom row, low profile case.

For me, the programmability of this board is the only box it checks off for my personal taste with what I look for in a new board. But I realize that I, along with many folks here at DT, are not the target audience. I don't think anyone would design the K-Type, as it sits now, for the DT crowd and expect it to be a success here.

This board has easily become the best I can recommend to a lot of people looking to invest in a good quality keyboard for a gaming TKL or with the aesthetics this board provides, as in the past only fairly crappy gaming keyboards filled the K-Types true market. Again, this board is fantastic but just completely unappealing to my personal tastes.

On a slight side note, I do have that fully analog Wooting Keyboard a day away, and it also offers a lot of new innovation, though has been heavily honed in on the gaming market (and rightfully so) due to the unique features it does have. So I will be quite curious which board really bridges the gap between the enthusiast and consumer market best.

[Findecanor]

The hot swap modules are soldered onto the PCB which means that overlapping holes aren’t possible in the way we’ve done in our other products.

RGB - Nice to have
Metal case - Nice to have
Hot-swappable switches - Nice to have
Not ISO - Deal-breaker.

It is not a "preference"! A keyboard that does not fit for the layout that I use to type my native language in, that is useless.

Because for one, I just don't like the look of a low profile TKL, no matter the quality.

I'm really not a fan of cases with floating switches when the sides are not flush with the keys. I suppose that it - and the sideglow layer - was chosen to keep the costs down while still using aluminium.

I have got to admit that I had not seen the current design until now - only the old one that is still up on input.club.
Yeah, having the plate integrated into the top would be costly to make in different layouts.
The early case design looked really thick for a floating-switch design although that could have been an illusion. The later versions have improved. But the friggin sideglow, man ... and the light bleed ...

The new switches sound great though. I am a devout in the church of MX Clear. I think people might be clunking down on them because Kailh has been so associated with Razer.

But if this keyboard is supposed to be Open Source/Open hardware, where are the design files?
I would like to see the PCB issue myself.

[Wodan]

Litte foreword before adding to further to this discussion. I really appreciate this thread. It's a colourful example that you can't make it right for everyone when designing a keyboard - no matter how good you are!

Getting criticism on DT should be the least of I:Cs problem since most people here are so far up the ivory tower, they need oxygen supply

But that's a great thing too. Giving feedback from a very eccentric perspective might help find improvements for the K-Type should I:C be interested in working on another revision.

We wanted to build a bridge keyboard, something that enthusiasts and the general public would like, while also making an RGB keyboard no one had to apologize for.

Many of the design constraints and innovations are related to the RGB effects. Putting this single aspect of the keyboard above many other features will give you controversial feedback from people with different priorities.

The whole reason that we incorporated hot-swap technology into this was to address your exact concern regarding kits. If you want to turn it into a kit, you can easily pull out the switches and caps, making every keyboard a "kit" if you want it to be.

This was very disapointing for me to read. To me this sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of the keyboard kit idea. Hot-Swappable keyboards are actually a disadvantage to me as I am looking for the most solid, monolith keyboard experience I can get. Giving the switches a fraction based connection with the pcb instead of an eternal solder bond adds flexibility at a core bonding point of the whole construction. I know this is currently en vogue on Reddit but something I wouldn't ever consider.

Also breaking down the idea of keyboard kits to the ability to replace switches goes too far for my taste. Building a kit keyboard means hand picking every single component of the keyboard yourself, making many individual decisions along the way like layout, switches, stabilizers, hot swappability etc.

[PollandAkuma]

If you are interested in topre, I recommend a Realforce, which also come in silent models.

There are silenced HHKB models as well, the Type-S.

seems like he was looking for a TKL though

[fruitalgorithm]

Input Club managed to get lots of features into this keyboard. It's a great idea to build something with mass market appeal, that's ready right out of the box. But it still is built for easy customisation: standard keycaps and layout, high frame rate RBG, exchangeable switches and programmability. It perfectly fits lots of people who get into mechanical keyboards now. They are lured by beautiful keycaps and TKL layouts the see on reddit. The K-Type means you don't have to decide now on things you might not know much about yet. It's a great keyboard to explore different switches and keycaps. Delivering all of these features plus a new exclusive switch at that price is quite an achievement. It basically ticks all the boxes and then some. If you compare it to getting a CoolerMaster MasterKeys Pro S RGB plus a set of PBT keycaps the price looks great. Especially since you're getting so much extra bling.

Sure it's not the second coming of the Model F or blue Alps – it was never intended to be that. I probably won't buy it, but I totally see the appeal. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it uninteresting for everybody. This a keyboard for people who want it all, and want to remain flexible later on.

[Khers]

The point brought forward in this thread is not that the k-type is bad or featureless. The point brought forward is that it is impossible to cater to everyone with one sku and that the one brought to market isn't very appealing to the keyboard snobs on this forum. Many of us would, for instance, gladly have traded RGB for support for multiple layouts. A barebones version would have been nice, I don't have any use for a pretty lacklustre cap set that aesthetically doesn't resonate with me one bit. Neither do I want another type of Zealios. The lack of layout options, however, is what really kills it for me.

Oh, and a masterkey with some cheap China PBT should be less than $200...

[jbondeson]

Disclaimer: I am a member of I:C, but my thoughts are my own and I don't speak for everyone.

Litte foreword before adding to further to this discussion. I really appreciate this thread. It's a colourful example that you can't make it right for everyone when designing a keyboard - no matter how good you are!

Getting criticism on DT should be the least of I:Cs problem since most people here are so far up the ivory tower, they need oxygen supply

But that's a great thing too. Giving feedback from a very eccentric perspective might help find improvements for the K-Type should I:C be interested in working on another revision.

I think it's pretty safe for me to say as a group we're really appreciative for all those who have taken the time to voice their thoughtful critiques and opinions on the matter. Personally, I'm a little disappointed that some have taken a not-so-constructive and weirdly hostile tone, but it wasn't entirely unexpected.

Many of the design constraints and innovations are related to the RGB effects. Putting this single aspect of the keyboard above many other features will give you controversial feedback from people with different priorities.

Certainly, the one thing I would say is that RGB has been the K-Type's major feature since it's inception years ago.

This was very disapointing for me to read. To me this sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of the keyboard kit idea. Hot-Swappable keyboards are actually a disadvantage to me as I am looking for the most solid, monolith keyboard experience I can get. Giving the switches a fraction based connection with the pcb instead of an eternal solder bond adds flexibility at a core bonding point of the whole construction. I know this is currently en vogue on Reddit but something I wouldn't ever consider.

Also breaking down the idea of keyboard kits to the ability to replace switches goes too far for my taste. Building a kit keyboard means hand picking every single component of the keyboard yourself, making many individual decisions along the way like layout, switches, stabilizers, hot swappability etc.

I feel what you're saying here (this IC60 that I'm typing on with beautifully refurbed HAD caps and a HADApter set -- thanks Wodan -- has been resoldered several times), but this is where the bridge aspect of this keyboard comes in. There's a huge (though not-as-vocal) part of the larger keyboard community that wants to be able to try out new switches, and change their minds, but don't have the skill and/or equipment and/or time to be soldering. That's where the hot-swap comes in. Though, yes, this came at a cost.

And as to the rigidity, the single-piece plate/top has been crafted specifically to address the fact that you don't have the extra safety net of the switches soldered in PCB to keep it all together. Brandon (Over^Kill) worked some fun engineering feats with that -- doubly so after the acrylic layer was added.

The beauty of the I:C designs (and one of the reasons I spent dozens of hours working with I:C prior to even becoming an official member) is that the PCB, mechanical designs, software and firmware are all going to be open source as well. So while this one manifestation of the keyboard may not be a perfect match to everyone in the community, others can learn and/or build on what we did here.

[fruitalgorithm]

PCB, mechanical designs, software and firmware are all going to be open source as well

This is definitely great and could lead to K-Type becoming the ErgoDox of TKLs.

[livingspeedbump]

The whole reason that we incorporated hot-swap technology into this was to address your exact concern regarding kits. If you want to turn it into a kit, you can easily pull out the switches and caps, making every keyboard a "kit" if you want it to be.

This was very disapointing for me to read. To me this sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of the keyboard kit idea. Hot-Swappable keyboards are actually a disadvantage to me as I am looking for the most solid, monolith keyboard experience I can get. Giving the switches a fraction based connection with the pcb instead of an eternal solder bond adds flexibility at a core bonding point of the whole construction. I know this is currently en vogue on Reddit but something I wouldn't ever consider.

I must say, that the new hot swap sockets in the K-Type are actually quite amazing. When the switches were in there was not a single switch that didn't feel like it was soldered in. I've had a few how swap boards in the past, and like you I was really not excited about the hot swap feature, because I assumed it would be something like those past keyboards. Most of those were using holtites though, and these are specifically made for mechanical keyswitches, and that really does make a gigantic difference.

[slyker]

Hot swap is wonderful! In fact if it weren't for it I would have given up Cherry a long, long time ago. The 50M keypress specs - in my real world experience - is BS.

When the switches go bad it takes seconds to fix the problematic item.

Yes, I'm sure someone will chime in and say "learn how to use a soldering iron!" You are correct, but only for Alps. I don't love Cherry enough to exert the effort.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

… the Tai-Hao caps are..mediocre …

What should be done to Tai-Hao's keycaps to improve them?

[hansichen]

… the Tai-Hao caps are..mediocre …

What should be done to Tai-Hao's keycaps to improve them?

Maybe use the old cherry profile molds?

[seebart]

… the Tai-Hao caps are..mediocre …

What should be done to Tai-Hao's keycaps to improve them?

Mediocre compared to what?

[dream3]

Hey dream3, just wanted to say from my experience stock MX clears are hard to bottom out if you lightly type, but it might be a bit heavy, so look into Ergo Clears and Zealios. I also really recommend Topre, I just got one recently and because the switch is made of rubber, when you bottom out it does not hurt your fingers. If you are interested in topre, I recommend a Realforce, which also come in silent models. Personally I have a HHKB Pro 2, which I like very much.

Heyy Polland, thanks for those. I was aware of those general recommendations but my main concern is towards the Halo switches. I'm picking up the IC and I'm not completely sure which one I'll enjoy the most.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Maybe use the old cherry profile molds? :evilgeek:

It's not certain whether that tooling is still serviceable, but it would be nice indeed if they could get it working again. They had a Model M-like keycap series too, but that's definitely no longer available — one of the TH-5539 variants used it.

[livingspeedbump]

… the Tai-Hao caps are..mediocre …

What should be done to Tai-Hao's keycaps to improve them?

Thicker caps would be nice. Some of the symbols are a little clunky. Cherry profile would be nicer

Mediocre compared to the wide gauntlet of available caps. By mediocre I mean completely middle ground. Yes, there are a lot of caps that are worse. Thin ABS, laser engraved/pad printed, bad font stock caps are a dime a dozen with cheap boards. But there are also many caps that are better. Ducky and Vortex PBT caps are much thicker. OEM profile is never going to be my favorite, I greatly prefer cherry. For being doubleshot PBT caps to cleanly show off the switch lighting, they work just fine, but I'm not going to say they are the best caps ever, because they definitely aren't.

For me Tai-Hao are about the best stock caps you can get, but fall short of just about any custom set you will find (EnjoyPBT, GMK, SA, XDA, Matteos new profile, etc). So again, dead middle ground for me.

[TuxKey]

Disclaimer: I am a member of I:C, but my thoughts are my own and I don't speak for everyone.

I feel what you're saying here (this IC60 that I'm typing on with beautifully refurbed HAD caps and a HADApter set -- thanks Wodan -- has been resoldered several times), but this is where the bridge aspect of this keyboard comes in. There's a huge (though not-as-vocal) part of the larger keyboard community that wants to be able to try out new switches, and change their minds, but don't have the skill and/or equipment and/or time to be soldering. That's where the hot-swap comes in. Though, yes, this came at a cost.

Speaking as the not so vocal part of this community;
i don't have a soldering iron and a de-soldering station the last one is pretty expensive and i just don't have the time and workspace to put in this hobby of mine.

Besides i really really wanted this keyboard because i followed the project for years and thought i was going to buy one.
programmable beauty with replaceable switches sounded good can't see a negative to be honest don't fully understand why a soldered non swap model would be better to be honest.

But after i saw what i would have to pay to get this keyboard
€75 to €80 on top of the price to import it. so in total almost €300 . that's €210 +€75 that's just to much.
i can do the €210 but not all the crap that follows. really really sad that Massdrop doesn't have a EU warehouse.

So this is not a normal keyboard for your average joe. No one i talk to thinks that €300 is normal even my Topre board doesn't cost that much.

[chuckdee]

If I may honestly ask- what do you think that I:C and MD could do to alleviate this problem? They priced the K-Type reasonably, and get no money from the import/customs taxes and fees- it seems that this is a problem with the governments and such, not with I:C and MD, and other than taking a loss on the board, there's no way for them to affect this.

[codemonkeymike]

If I may honestly ask- what do you think that I:C and MD could do to alleviate this problem? They priced the K-Type reasonably, and get no money from the import/customs taxes and fees- it seems that this is a problem with the governments and such, not with I:C and MD, and other than taking a loss on the board, there's no way for them to affect this.

Mostly just a Massdrop issue because from what I know they get exclusivity agreements with the "massdrop made" products. Now if it would be wildly profitable for them to have a warehouse in Europe they would have done it already. They are a corporation which sole purpose is to make a profit for its shareholders/owners.

[chuckdee]

If I may honestly ask- what do you think that I:C and MD could do to alleviate this problem? They priced the K-Type reasonably, and get no money from the import/customs taxes and fees- it seems that this is a problem with the governments and such, not with I:C and MD, and other than taking a loss on the board, there's no way for them to affect this.

Mostly just a Massdrop issue because from what I know they get exclusivity agreements with the "massdrop made" products. Now if it would be wildly profitable for them to have a warehouse in Europe they would have done it already. They are a corporation which sole purpose is to make a profit for its shareholders/owners.

How? Again, the complaint isn't with price- it's with customs. How could they change that, without the material outlay to create not just a warehouse in Europe, but the logistical support behind that, and the administrative organ also.