Round 5 and Round 6 kits for sale!

[LastBrat]

Will someone please order some keys so my order can be shipped too?

[7bit]

Some prices went down:

HONEYG/CUREXTRA/B/VIOLETT
price: $6


HONEYG/CUREXTRA/E/VIOLETT
price: $2


HONEYG/CUREXTRA/F/VIOLETT
price: $2


HONEYG/DSA175S/GREY
price: $0.4


HONEYG/FNALTGR125/GE
price: $2


HONEYG/G5
price: $49


HONEYG/G6
price: $59


HONEYG/G7
price: $69


HONEYG/G8
price: $59


HONEYG/MOD125A/GE
price: $4


HONEYG/MOD125C/BLUE
price: $14


HONEYG/MODSYM100A/R2/BLUE
price: $4


HONEYG/MODSYM100C/CADET
price: $2


HONEYG/MODSYM150A/BLUE
price: $3


HONEYG/POSH/BLUE
price: $2


HONEYG/QWERTYOP/BLUE
price: $5


HONEYB/HYPER7/CADET
price: $379


HONEYB/INTERA/CREAM
price: $16


HONEYB/MODIFIER125D/VIOLETT
price: $17

Code: Select all

old|HONEYG/MODSYM100C/CADET    |  $3|Modifier symbols
new|HONEYG/MODSYM100C/CADET    |  $2|Modifier symbols

old|HONEYG/MODSYM150A/BLUE     |  $4|Modifier keys
new|HONEYG/MODSYM150A/BLUE     |  $3|Modifier keys

old|HONEYG/POSH/BLUE           |  $3|POS-keys (row 1,2)
new|HONEYG/POSH/BLUE           |  $2|POS-keys (row 1,2)

old|HONEYG/QWERTYOP/BLUE       |  $6|QWERTYOP row 1
new|HONEYG/QWERTYOP/BLUE       |  $5|QWERTYOP row 1

Code: Select all

old|HONEYB/CIRCLE/R3/BLUE      |  $2|circle key (1u)
new|HONEYB/CIRCLE/R3/BLUE      |  $1|circle key (1u)

old|HONEYB/HYPER7/CADET        |$389|Hyper7 Space Cadet kit
new|HONEYB/HYPER7/CADET        |$379|Hyper7 Space Cadet kit

old|HONEYB/INTERA/CREAM        | $19|Inter kit no 1 4 5
new|HONEYB/INTERA/CREAM        | $16|Inter kit no 1 4 5

old|HONEYB/MODEXTRA151/VIOLETT | $27|Modifier extra violett
new|HONEYB/MODEXTRA151/VIOLETT | $21|Modifier extra violett

old|HONEYB/MODIFIER125D/VIOLETT| $18|Modifier kit violett
new|HONEYB/MODIFIER125D/VIOLETT| $17|Modifier kit violett

old|HONEYB/MODSYM125A/BLUE     | $10|Modifier symbols blue
new|HONEYB/MODSYM125A/BLUE     |  $8|Modifier symbols blue

old|HONEYB/TRIANGLE/R2/BLUE    |  $2|triangle key (1u)
new|HONEYB/TRIANGLE/R2/BLUE    |  $1|triangle key (1u)

old|HONEYB/TRIANGLE/R3/BLUE    |  $2|triangle key (1u)
new|HONEYB/TRIANGLE/R3/BLUE    |  $1|triangle key (1u)

[developstopfix]

I was under the impression that these kits were left-overs from R5.

For any keycap sets that are in stock, it doesn't matter when you order them. It only matters when 7bit accumulates enough cash to pay for shipping. It's like social security in the U.S.; your payment doesn't actually go towards your own order. Your payment made it possible for a much older order to finally get shipped. Future payments from others make it possible for your order to get shipped, and so on down the line. It's a precarious cash flow model, but it is what it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Is this true? It's the first I've heard that this is the case. As far as I'm concerned we've all paid for shipping costs already, that money should have been set aside so that our orders could actually be shipped when they are in stock, not potentially weeks later. What's going to happen when the Round 2 keys are finally delivered to 7bit? That's going to be a lot of shipping costs he's going to have to suddenly come up with.

[caligo]

I was under the impression that these kits were left-overs from R5.

For any keycap sets that are in stock, it doesn't matter when you order them. It only matters when 7bit accumulates enough cash to pay for shipping. It's like social security in the U.S.; your payment doesn't actually go towards your own order. Your payment made it possible for a much older order to finally get shipped. Future payments from others make it possible for your order to get shipped, and so on down the line. It's a precarious cash flow model, but it is what it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Is this true? It's the first I've heard that this is the case. As far as I'm concerned we've all paid for shipping costs already, that money should have been set aside so that our orders could actually be shipped when they are in stock, not potentially weeks later. What's going to happen when the Round 2 keys are finally delivered to 7bit? That's going to be a lot of shipping costs he's going to have to suddenly come up with.

This whole thing is kind of a can of worms. As I understand it, the idea is that R6 leftovers and possibly R7 pre-orders will pay for the shipping of phase 2. The whole setup is that the money goes towards what 7bit thinks should take priority. For example, that's why R7 money went towards financing R6.

On the other hand I finally got my R7 refund a week or so ago after waiting for something like half a year, so the whole thing cannot be that strapped for cash. Or maybe R7 refunds take priority over R6 shipping for some reason, I dunno. In that case, I guess we'll possibly run into another liquidity crisis once R6 phase 2 is produced. But I don't have the exact numbers, maybe we're all good.

EDIT: Edited for clarity

[zslane]

What's going to happen when the Round 2 keys are finally delivered to 7bit? That's going to be a lot of shipping costs he's going to have to suddenly come up with.

It's not just shipping costs. There is also over $10,000 worth of import taxes to be paid before 7bit will be able to get Round 6 phase 2 keycaps out of German Customs after SP has shipped them to him. However, 7bit feels quite confident that he will have the necessary funds accumulated (through sales of leftovers and grab bags) by the time import taxes and shipping costs will need to be paid. Bear in mind that he still has to pay out lots of Round 7 refunds as well, so he will be dealing with liquidity challenges for some time to come. It all seems to work out in the end, it just requires monumental patience from everyone involved.

[segacontroller]

I believe the issue stems from leftovers. Instead of waiting to sell all keys in the current run, money collected from the next phase was used.

I would trust that if all leftovers were sold right now, the project would be fully funded. In order for early phases to get their keys as quickly as possible, money was siphoned from the next round, instead of waiting for leftovers to be fully sold out.

[zslane]

I believe the issue stems from leftovers. Instead of waiting to sell all keys in the current run, money collected from the next phase was used.

Two things to note:

1. If 7bit didn't place any orders with SP until after his ginormous GBs were completely pre-sold, we'd all be waiting another two or three years. That's why he uses a cash flow strategy that is no different than any other business.

2. Round 6 was not the first GB to be managed this way. It was, however, the first GB to hit a liquidity crisis so bad that the methodology became apparent to everyone.

[caligo]

I started writing a response and it kind of turned into a rant, so I think I'll just say this: The cash flow strategy is no different than what a business does, but 7bit is not a corporation. Had I ordered stuff from a store, there would be lots of laws in place that protect my rights as a consumer and dictate what happens in case of bankruptcy. In a GB, there are none of those things.

[zslane]

I started writing a response and it kind of turned into a rant, so I think I'll just say this: The cash flow strategy is no different than what a business does, but 7bit is not a corporation. Had I ordered stuff from a store, there would be lots of laws in place that protect my rights as a consumer and dictate what happens in case of bankruptcy. In a GB, there are none of those things.

You're right on all counts except for the notion that just because 7bit isn't a corporation that he has no reason (or right) to manage the finances of his group buys as any other business would. He has run numerous group buys over many years, which makes it a kind of business. He places orders (with vendors), takes orders (from customers), carries inventory, packs and ships product to customers, and so on. Operationally speaking, his group buys are a business for all intents and purposes.

And you still have rights. It's just that 7bit has personal liability and can't hide behind corporate laws to avoid litigation. However, the laws in effect are probably German laws, and I don't know how they work, but I imagine the effort you would have to go to in order to obtain financial relief from him is not much different than it would be for any (other) German online store that was run by an individual.

[caligo]

I started writing a response and it kind of turned into a rant, so I think I'll just say this: The cash flow strategy is no different than what a business does, but 7bit is not a corporation. Had I ordered stuff from a store, there would be lots of laws in place that protect my rights as a consumer and dictate what happens in case of bankruptcy. In a GB, there are none of those things.

You're right on all counts except for the notion that just because 7bit isn't a corporation that he has no reason (or right) to manage the finances of his group buys as any other business would. He has run numerous group buys over many years, which makes it a kind of business. He places orders (with vendors), takes orders (from customers), carries inventory, packs and ships product to customers, and so on. Operationally speaking, his group buys are a business for all intents and purposes.

And you still have rights. It's just that 7bit has personal liability and can't hide behind corporate laws to avoid litigation. However, the laws in effect are probably German laws, and I don't know how they work, but I imagine the effort you would have to go to in order to obtain financial relief from him is not much different than it would be for any (other) German online store that was run by an individual.

I think I avoided making it a rant, but the post still ended up being kind of long. Sorry, I tried and failed.

I never said there's no reason to run the GB this or that way. And I really have no say in how anyone should or shouldn't run a GB – 7bit has every right to run this operation however he wishes. But to me at least, it's not a smorgasbord where one can just pick and choose – if things are to be run like a corporation, there ought to be the same levels of accountability and legal protection as when actual companies are involved.

A GB comes with certain expectations. Since there is almost nothing of the legal protection normally associated with buying something, the whole thing relies far more on trust than when I go and buy a keyboard at the local Radioshack. As evident by the numerous instances of GB organizers running away with the money, there's really not that much one can do if the person running the GB does not deliver for whatever reason. There might technically be ways to sue people etc., but in practice it seldom happens.

We're kind of in Wild West territory here, where all a person has is his or her good name and deals are sealed with a handshake. The whole cashflow thing goes against people's expectations, is all. Especially when you realize after the fact that you have actually paid for someone else's stuff and can't do anything but hope for the best.

You have to realize, most people jumping on this GB (as well as R7) did so based on 7bits excellent track record and nothing more – as far as I know, the only one with any insight into how the whole thing operated was 7bit himself. And when the whole thing was revealed to rest on a buisness model that is less straightforward than people expected, that brings about a certain uneasiness. That does not mean 7bit is wrong to use the setup he has ended up with – it just means that there is a mismatch between people's expectations and what is actually offered. And I really think this needs to be acknowledged.

When I buy something from a corporation there's a contract. Here there's no such thing. I think its reasonable for people to have another set of expectations when dealing with GBs, no matter who runs them.

[zslane]

But to me at least, it's not a smorgasbord where one can just pick and choose – if things are to be run like a corporation, there ought to be the same levels of accountability and legal protection as when actual companies are involved.

7bit's group buys are not run "like a corporation". They are run like very poorly managed community group buys (i.e., they are too big, have too many kits/colors/options, try to please too many people, take forever to fund, take forever to manufacture, rely on strangers to collect funds from multiple payment mechanisms, and have a single point of failure whose name is Andreas). Just because he uses cash flow strategies common to businesses (of all sizes) doesn't mean he is trying to be a corporation, function like one, or present himself as one.

I think you have to separate the organizational and operational architecture of a corporation from the fundamental business practices available to anyone who offers products or services for money. Using the latter does not imply that one is the former. In fact, most "community" group buys are run by hobbyists as a hobby, not as a full-time business, even though the internal management of these group buys will often utilize common business practices where useful or necessary.

A GB comes with certain expectations.

Apart from the expectation that you will get what you ordered (eventually), any other expectations are unwise to harbor. That is something every newbie needs to learn, preferably before entering into a group buy (especially a 7bit group buy) as a buyer. I'm not sure how to properly education newbies on this score, but I acknowledge it would be helpful.

You have to realize, most people jumping on this GB (as well as R7) did so based on 7bits excellent track record and nothing more – as far as I know, the only one with any insight into how the whole thing operated was 7bit himself. And when the whole thing was revealed to rest on a buisness model that is less straightforward than people expected, that brings about a certain uneasiness. That does not mean 7bit is wrong to use the setup he has ended up with – it just means that there is a mismatch between people's expectations and what is actually offered. And I really think this needs to be acknowledged.

I agree. Except that I think the uneasiness is as much a product of incorrect expectations as it is a product of the vicarious manner in which 7bit runs his group buys. I really think that also needs to be acknowledged.

[j0d1]

I'm new to DT and this GB but I followed this thread for a couple of weeks now.

What still puzzles me is why 7bit is not more verbose on this thread?
Also, why @zslane are you speaking so much on 7bit behalf?
What is your relation with him?

Don't get me wrong, those are simply questions coming from a newbie, I'm still trying to figure out the organizational chart.

[zslane]

I'm new to DT and this GB but I followed this thread for a couple of weeks now.

What still puzzles me is why 7bit is not more verbose on this thread?
Also, why @zslane are you speaking so much on 7bit behalf?
What is your relation with him?

Don't get me wrong, those are simply questions coming from a newbie, I'm still trying to figure out the organizational chart.

Those are all good and valid questions. I'll try to answer them as best I can.

1. I have always assumed that 7bit's poor communication habits are just a quirk of his personality. I believe he simply doesn't like having to explain himself or the intricacies of his group buys, but that's just speculation on my part. It may instead just be a diabolical combination of lack of free time and evil in his heart.

2. I am speaking on his behalf because he refuses to. I would rather help inform people to keep them calm than wait around for explanations from 7bit that aren't forthcoming and watch the torches and pitchforks get passed around. At least until Round 6 phase 2 ships. After that, I don't really care anymore.

3. My relation to him is that I am heavily committed (as a customer) to Round 6 and desperately want to see it reach a successful conclusion. To that end, I was a PayPal collector for several months, helping to solve the liquidity crisis that nearly left Round 6 phase 2 dead in the water.

It should be noted that the crisis that nearly killed Round 6 phase 2 did put enough pressure on 7bit that he has yielded some rather illuminating financial figures in (somewhat) recent posts. He has been uncharacteristically transparent lately, though he still releases information very infrequently.

[7bit]

... because I have not so much time ...


However, almost all shippable orders have been shipped, except for those with missing names or entirely missing address.

[caligo]

7bit's group buys are not run "like a corporation". They are run like very poorly managed community group buys (i.e., they are too big, have too many kits/colors/options, try to please too many people, take forever to fund, take forever to manufacture, rely on strangers to collect funds from multiple payment mechanisms, and have a single point of failure whose name is Andreas). Just because he uses cash flow strategies common to businesses (of all sizes) doesn't mean he is trying to be a corporation, function like one, or present himself as one.

I'm not saying the whole thing is 'run like a corporation', I'm saying that the 'just like any other business would' argument is not really that valid if the only thing that's business-like is how cash is managed. This is not 'any business' – it's a group of enthusiasts entrusting their funds to a member of the community in order to get a better deal from an actual business. That's, by definition, what constitutes a community group buy.

And in my opinion, the only standard for such a group buy to live up to is that of… a group buy. This standard is the result of the culture here on DT, as well as elsewhere, something which has evolved over time and is all quite informal. That also means there isn't really a set of rules, contracts, etc. It's more like a code of honor – a code that is sometimes up for interpretation. I didn't agree to a lenghty ToS when placing my rather substantial R5 order, nor did I feel the need to.

Using the money for something other than what was implicitly agreed upon is normally not part of that code – no matter how justified it might be from a financial standpoint. Say me and a group of friends are planning a trip, and I'm entrusted with their money and tasked with getting us plane tickets. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be that keen on the idea of me investing the money in the stock market with the hopes of increasing our funds. Even if i get a good return on the investment which gets us first-class tickets in the end, they would probably feel their trust was betrayed. (The analogy is not perfect, but still kind of illustrates the point I'm trying to make.)

The key word here is entrust. When in a GB here on DT, I don't pay the organizer for a service. I entrust him or her, someone I have confidence in, with my money in the hope that this will give me and others access to a better deal. Is it really that weird for people to assume this is generally the deal when joining a GB such as this?

[j0d1]

Thanks a lot for the detailed information, @zslane, and most of all, for taking time to help others in this thread.

When I first joined DT, this group buy interested me a lot.
Then I read the thread, that I need to order through 7bot, that the inventory was on the wiki, that I should pay in a certain way to have a substantial rebate... and it turned me off.
The keycaps are gorgeous but there are too many red flags to join.

I think the lack of communication is the biggest one.
The and are funny but not when money is at stake.

On a side note, one thing that I found odd was the pricing.
Are the prices is USD? Are the prices in EUR?
I could not find this basic information in the wiki.

Also on a side note, this group buy spawns over years now.
There are plenty of online services (ex: Shopify) to manage an inventory, place orders, track purchases and ask for a refund.
Why not use such service?

[caligo]

Thanks a lot for the detailed information, @zslane, and most of all, for taking time to help others in this thread.

When I first joined DT, this group buy interested me a lot.
Then I read the thread, that I need to order through 7bot, that the inventory was on the wiki, that I should pay in a certain way to have a substantial rebate... and it turned me off.
The keycaps are gorgeous but there are too many red flags to join.

I think the lack of communication is the biggest one.
The and are funny but not when money is at stake.

On a side note, one thing that I found odd was the pricing.
Are the prices is USD? Are the prices in EUR?
I could not find this basic information in the wiki.

Also on a side note, this group buy spawns over years now.
There are plenty of online services (ex: Shopify) to manage an inventory, place orders, track purchases and ask for a refund.
Why not use such service?

I wouldn't call those things red flags per se – if anything, they mark the whole thing as profoundly oldschool. 7bit has a workflow involving lots of scripts and such – for all I know, the whole thing is basically run by a set of bash scripts. I guess the motto is 'if it aint broken, don't fix it'. Granted, the definition of 'broken' might vary from person to person.

But even if it's something of a Rube Goldberg machine, it gets the job done so people have kind of learned to live with it. The setup has worked (mostly) through several large group buys. Round 4 started way back in 2011, so this thing has been going on for quite a while. Both R4 and R5 went smoothly, at least compared to R6. Also, this was before Massdrop and the likes – people's idea of what a GB entails where somewhat different back then.

However, what's probably not part of that oldschool way of doing things – at least not in many people's mind – is siphoning money from one project to finance the next one. Even if it gets the job done, and even if it has worked several times in the past. But until recently, people didn't know the details fo the setup and the potential pitfalls. Hence, it didn't become a hot topic until R6 ran into problems because of an unforseen expense a while back.

The whole thing has managed to clear that bump in the road and we're mostly back on track now, though we don't know for sure if it will still be smooth sailing once import taxes and shipping need to be paid –
hence the occasional rumbles in this thread. There's a certain sense of uneasiness here that'll probably not subside until the keycaps have actually been shipped. But seeing as the order has been placed now, I think you can more or less count on eventually getting any keycaps you order – it's just a question of how long you'll have to wait.

[krutmob]

Meant to update this earlier but work has been very demanding at new job.

Mashby's check finally arrived at SP on 5/18/17.

[LastBrat]

However, almost all shippable orders have been shipped, except for those with missing names or entirely missing address.

Do I understand you correctly and you are missing name or address for my order (#1199)?

[7bit]

Your order has shipped already!


Here is more stuff to be ordered:

HONEYG/G7
price: $69


HONEYG/MOD150CFHH/CADET
price: $5


HONEYG/TRIANGLE125/CADET
price: $1.5


HONEYG/JRET/BLUE
price: $5


HONEYG/MOD125B/BLUE
price: $21


HONEYG/CURSOREXTRA/G/BLUE
price: $3


HONEYG/RUBOUT175/BLUE
price: $2


HONEYB/HYPER7/CADET
price: $379


HONEYB/HYPER7/FUNPAD
price: $36


HONEYB/HYPER7/POS
price: $89


HONEYB/HYPER7/BASE
price: $89


HONEYB/ISO/BLUE
price: $14


HONEYB/UK/SPH
price: $9


HONEYB/UK/BLUE
price: $9


HONEYB/INTER/SPH
price: $45


HONEYB/COLEMAK/SPH
price: $19


HONEYB/MODEXTRA150/BLUE
price: $29


HONEYB/MODSYM100/CADET
price: $12


HONEYB/MODSYM150/R3/CADET
price: $9

[7bit]

I was under the impression that these kits were left-overs from R5.

For any keycap sets that are in stock, it doesn't matter when you order them. It only matters when 7bit accumulates enough cash to pay for shipping. It's like social security in the U.S.; your payment doesn't actually go towards your own order. Your payment made it possible for a much older order to finally get shipped. Future payments from others make it possible for your order to get shipped, and so on down the line. It's a precarious cash flow model, but it is what it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Is this true? It's the first I've heard that this is the case. As far as I'm concerned we've all paid for shipping costs already, that money should have been set aside so that our orders could actually be shipped when they are in stock, not potentially weeks later. What's going to happen when the Round 2 keys are finally delivered to 7bit? That's going to be a lot of shipping costs he's going to have to suddenly come up with.

Currently, everything I could ship has shipped.


There was a little EUR-money shortage, because almost nobody paid in EUR anymore and I shipped so many packages that I went out of funds at this end.

[zslane]

However, what's probably not part of that oldschool way of doing things – at least not in many people's mind – is siphoning money from one project to finance the next one. Even if it gets the job done, and even if it has worked several times in the past.

I think "siphoning" is the wrong way to look at it. The truth is that all money sent to 7bit is going into what might be best described as the "7bit Keycap/Switch/PCB Foundation", where vendor manufacturing schedules and other factors dictate how (and when) that money gets spent. There's a lot more going on than just a round of keycaps (like the Hyper7 project, for instance). I suspect a lot of folks don't realize that either.

Unfortunately, if you want the keycap sets he designs, you simply have to put aside any feelings of unease, summon up some faith and trust, and dive in. Sometimes it's best not to know how the sausage is made.

[makesi168]

i never get replies with the WASSUP status mail enquiry to 7bot. could you let me know where i am at, order 0982? thanks.

[peiji1991]

Hi, 7 bit, I am a chinese buyer, my old DT count cannot work, and also does my old email. My order is #0801, how about it now? please send imformation about my order to peiji1991@yahoo.com， thanks for reply !!!!!!!!!

[LastBrat]

I got my package today, thanks 7bit! No tracking number or anything (though I did pay for tracked shipping), so it was a (pleasant) surprise

[souldsnake]

There was a little EUR-money shortage, because almost nobody paid in EUR anymore and I shipped so many packages that I went out of funds at this end.

hello 7bit can you check the PM I sent you and get back to me?

[krutmob]

Hi, 7 bit, I am a chinese buyer, my old DT count cannot work, and also does my old email. My order is #0801, how about it now? please send imformation about my order to peiji1991@yahoo.com， thanks for reply !!!!!!!!!

That's not really how this works. Send him a PM.

[Ail]

Got my keycaps, everything is great. Thanks 7-bit.

[peiji1991]

Hi, 7 bit, I am a chinese buyer, my old DT count cannot work, and also does my old email. My order is #0801, how about it now? please send imformation about my order to peiji1991@yahoo.com， thanks for reply !!!!!!!!!

That's not really how this works. Send him a PM.

Because DT's system email would be intercepted by some of chinese mailbox, so i regist a yahoo mail-adress, please tell 7 bit to contact me, I pay my order at Jan 2015, did 7bit send kits to me?

[codemonkeymike]

Hi, 7 bit, I am a chinese buyer, my old DT count cannot work, and also does my old email. My order is #0801, how about it now? please send imformation about my order to peiji1991@yahoo.com， thanks for reply !!!!!!!!!

That's not really how this works. Send him a PM.

Because DT's system email would be intercepted by some of chinese mailbox, so i regist a yahoo mail-adress, please tell 7 bit to contact me, I pay my order at Jan 2015, did 7bit send kits to me?

The DT message system is not Email, its the same thing as posting a public message except its can only be seen by one other person. There is no way the government can tell the difference unless they use DT and mapped out the the endpoints. The reason they can filter emails because it uses a different protocol then posting a message or sending a private message on a website. So just send him a message with your order number and your question.