F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[subcat]

One benefit of Australia is we pay nothing up to $1000

[pansku]

I don't know anything about NZ, but for people in Europe, my understanding is that there is no import duty on keyboards into the EU - has anyone had direct/relevant experience? Presumably VAT would need to be paid (plus collection fees), but I believe computer keyboards are exempt from duty.

At least in Finland there is no import duty on keyboards as they go in the computer accessories and parts category but I'm looking at like 100€ VAT unless the package will be marked as gift

[Korzenowski]

Sorry subcat, but I think you're in for a very rude shock...

Our beloved Australian government has decided to extend GST to low-value items from 1st July, per this announcement:

https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Interna ... Australia/

And given the wording of the announcement, I'd suggest Ellipse would be well advised to read it. The delays so far have been frustrating to put it politely. One would be more than a little peeved if, come March next year when the keyboards finally arrive (if we're lucky!), dear old Australian customs decided to return them because GST has not been paid.

Either way, at today's exchange rate I'm going to have to pay another AU$140, bringing the cost of two keyboards to an eye-watering AU$1,500.

[kekstee]

I don't know anything about NZ, but for people in Europe, my understanding is that there is no import duty on keyboards into the EU - has anyone had direct/relevant experience? Presumably VAT would need to be paid (plus collection fees), but I believe computer keyboards are exempt from duty.

At least in Finland there is no import duty on keyboards as they go in the computer accessories and parts category but I'm looking at like 100€ VAT :cry: unless the package will be marked as gift ;)

It should be the same for all of EU. No import tax, just VAT and maybe a handling fee depending on your country.

[subcat]

Sorry subcat, but I think you're in for a very rude shock...

Our beloved Australian government has decided to extend GST to low-value items from 1st July, per this announcement:

https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Interna ... Australia/

And given the wording of the announcement, I'd suggest Ellipse would be well advised to read it. The delays so far have been frustrating to put it politely. One would be more than a little peeved if, come March next year when the keyboards finally arrive (if we're lucky!), dear old Australian customs decided to return them because GST has not been paid.

Either way, at today's exchange rate I'm going to have to pay another AU$140, bringing the cost of two keyboards to an eye-watering AU$1,500.

Had no idea about this. Thanks.

[evoman]

I don't know anything about NZ, but for people in Europe, my understanding is that there is no import duty on keyboards into the EU - has anyone had direct/relevant experience? Presumably VAT would need to be paid (plus collection fees), but I believe computer keyboards are exempt from duty.

At least in Finland there is no import duty on keyboards as they go in the computer accessories and parts category but I'm looking at like 100€ VAT unless the package will be marked as gift

It should be the same for all of EU. No import tax, just VAT and maybe a handling fee depending on your country.

I wasn't looking forward to VAT, so I think I used my address in the US as the shipping address - the problem will be getting it to England given the delays in the production schedule.

[Ellipse]

I am heading back from KeyCon 2017! Nice meeting everyone, and hope everyone had a chance to try out the first run F62 and F77 keyboards! Please do post your initial impressions if you'd like but keep in mind these are not yet finished

[consolation]

I don't know anything about NZ, but for people in Europe, my understanding is that there is no import duty on keyboards into the EU - has anyone had direct/relevant experience? Presumably VAT would need to be paid (plus collection fees), but I believe computer keyboards are exempt from duty.

Yeah, I simplified my comment so it's not banging on about one specific case. The 45$US "de minimus" rule applies to Duty+GST (Goods and Services Tax, aka VAT), since we have no duty on computer parts, the only relevant thing is the 15% GST and is in practice the same thing. Very few items have duty in NZ, all have GST; if the sum of both fees is less than 60$NZ, they don't bother to collect them as the admin cost > fees.

Sorry, I will not let anything go out unless I personally test it to ensure the highest quality standards for this project. I have already paid the factory to assemble and do the first pass of quality control.

That's absolutely understandable, a bit more hassle up front will save you a lot on the back end; dealing with badly assembled boards, reputation loss once they hit the second hand market, lost bit's and bobs, etc, etc... I threw it out there in case you had no plan, and there was a risk of the local constabulary finding your dessicated skeleton under a pile of barrels, but sounds like you have the assembly side well in hand.

[Hypersphere]

Now that I've received refunds from two other projects that didn't go as planned, I've placed an order for another Ellipse F62, this time with the compact case. The plan is to equip all my workstations with brand new Kishsavers!

[evoman]

Great robotsokk and Hypersphere!

My personal preference is for the original off-white/beige color, F77 version with num pad style right side block.

I am trying to remember what I ordered for the right side block, and in doing so I am starting to question what is the best option. I am pretty sure I ordered with the num pad style block, but I am wondering what the keycaps will look like? I would be happy something like the layout Hypersphere posted:



But I don't know what printing options there are. I could get away with using a numpad layout if I had the functions embedded in that set (especially pg up/pg dn / del).

So I am wondering what the options are? How is the 0-9 set configured? I have gotten used to a tenkeyless board, so that layout could work, but the num pad with the tkl keys as a layer might be even better.

[Shihatsu]

O wow this looks sexy! That would be just sooo good! I had the same questions for myself and ordered 2 different numpad button sets.

[evoman]

O wow this looks sexy! That would be just sooo good! I had the same questions for myself and ordered 2 different numpad button sets.

Hmm, ordering a second different set is a good idea. But I am not sure what the configuration is to begin with. I noticed the newer photos for the compact model, which show a pretty nice layout for the num pad, but I am not sure how one switches between the numbers and the functions:



There is no Num Lock, so I am confused.

I saw the pictures of the original model, which shows the right side block with function/cursor set:



and it also shows a split right side shift key (but the compact version does not). I assume that is the HHKB split shift option, which would be nice depending on what the fn key can be programmed to do (can it toggle the num pad functions or toggle the top row to F function keys?).

So I am just overall confused by the layouts. After shelling out a lot for an F77 I want to make sure I can configure the layout to optimise my happiness since I am hoping it can be my main work board for a long time! cheers.

[wobbled]

Get blank keycaps then you can have any layout you choose

[evoman]

Get blank keycaps then you can have any layout you choose

I don't do well with blanks, unless you mean using blanks as part of a two-part keycap (which I have on my Model M, where you can swap the thin top keycap to change layouts).

I have no real interest in totally blank keycaps. I had a dark on dark set of printed keycaps and it drove me nuts. I don't stare at my keyboard, but have to peek down occasionally get re-set my position since I don't touch type (I use a hybrid - sort of six finger hut and peck - it's good for 60-70 wpm, which is fine for me).

So I need to find a layout option that will mostly work. I'm okay if a few keys don't match their label, so long as it is intuitive (like the fact that I am writing this on an US ANSI keyboard that thinks it has a UK layout, so I need to ignore printing on some caps)

[wobbled]

Get blank keycaps then you can have any layout you choose

I don't do well with blanks, unless you mean using blanks as part of a two-part keycap (which I have on my Model M, where you can swap the thin top keycap to change layouts).

I have no real interest in totally blank keycaps. I had a dark on dark set of printed keycaps and it drove me nuts. I don't stare at my keyboard, but have to peek down occasionally get re-set my position since I don't touch type (I use a hybrid - sort of six finger hut and peck - it's good for 60-70 wpm, which is fine for me).

So I need to find a layout option that will mostly work. I'm okay if a few keys don't match their label, so long as it is intuitive (like the fact that I am writing this on an US ANSI keyboard that thinks it has a UK layout, so I need to ignore printing on some caps)

Mate if you learn how to touch type all these problems you're having will simply disappear

[Shihatsu]

Get blank keycaps then you can have any layout you choose

Nope.

[caltemus]

Get blank keycaps then you can have any layout you choose

Nope.

Yeah, at this upper end of the market, get exactly what you want. It'd be silly not to, especially when ellipse is so accommodating to individual tastes.

[evoman]

I know the earlier comments are said with tongue in cheek, and I can see that many people are best off doing touch typing, but I'm happy hacking out 70 wpm and never feel like I wish I was able to bang out more (since I am writing my own words, and cannot really think of what to write any faster than I can type!).

Plus, the group I manage (including me) split time between writing, editing, doing coding in a few different languages, dealing with numerical data sets, and doing analytical mathematical analyses. So it is a hodgepodge of uses for a keyboard. If I always used a single layout I suppose this would be less of an issue, but I have laptops with UK ISO and a mixture of workstations with US ANSI and UK ISO. So I am never 100% sure where all of the keys are (and I always get a few wrong when I put keycaps on, no matter what I do!).

[Zed]

Your questions couldn't have come at a better time evoman. I have been chatting with Ellipse and he has asked if I would do the reproduction F XT font for the keys he is having made. The first step is making up a comprehensive list of all the keys I would need to create so I came up with this showing the base kit and the extra kits as they are currently listed.

Font and icons are only placeholders.

F XT Base Set.PNG (90.49 KiB) Viewed 29473 times

As far as the F77 number pad/nav cluster.

Updated 2x. Added Print Screen, Scroll Lock, Pause to #1

F77 Num Pad 3.PNG (27.3 KiB) Viewed 29279 times

1 and 2 are the options which are currently available and 3 is a layout I came up with and have been discussing with Ellipse as a possible addition.

1 - You could program a num pad on a function layer like the Hypersphere layout above but the keys would not have any secondary legends printed on them. I am not sure if blanks will be included if you ordered this option.

2 - Looks great but not so great if you need to do any math or need math operator numpad codes (like Blender). Allows easy access to nav arrows without the hassle of hitting a Fn or Num Lock key.

3 - Have to toggle between nav and numpad but better for math (Fn and + is *, Fn and - is /). I would also put all the sub functions on the num pad keys (Home, End, etc.) on a function layer so you can quickly navigate by hitting the Fn key without leaving num pad mode.

The split R shift HHKB layout gives a perfect Fn key location but since these boards are programmable, you could designate any key to act as Fn. You can also, of course, program any key you want to be a Num Lock (Fn and Backspace, for example) or whatever. Hope this helps you figure out which options are best for you.

To be continued...

[Zed]

As I was working up the list of legends and keys, various options started coming to mind. These are all just proposals at this point. Some of the keys may end up being included in the sets which are already available, some may end up in a new kit or kits. Some may be a bit too ambitious. Are media keys that popular on smaller boards like the F62 and F77?

Keys circled in red have placeholder legends. All others are final versions.

F Extras.png (185.33 KiB) Viewed 29448 times

Now is the time to let your opinions be heard. I sent Ellipse a novelty with the buckling spring patent drawing, and he thought there was too much detail to be reproduced well so if you have any other ideas, let me know.

[Craweth]

Looks good. I guess you have quite a few alternative languages you have to add aswell.

[caltemus]

Who's doing the dye sublimation? The current unicomp selection looks to have issues with consistent placement and bleed on the letters. There is the dude in japan doing DIY dye subs, and his look pretty clean. Or is it being done at the same facility that the boards are being manufactured at? If the legends aren't sharp like the old M examples, then I'd rather just use the old M ones.

[evoman]

@Zed - Excellent - thanks for sharing! A few comments:

Option 3 for the F77 right side cluster looks great. I was thinking of something like that today when looking at my Model M (since it basically matches a classic num pad). I personally like option 2, but without the num lock key how do you toggle between the options? For option 1, it feels like there must be a solution that allows you to fill those blank slots.

Is it possible to clean up the cluster using front printing? It sounds like people prefer two legends on the top surface, but for a cluster I feel like it works better with front printing if you can toggle the two sets with something like a num lock key. So you are not using a fn key to invoke the second layer, you are toggling two full sets.

I think my ideal set would be something like the Hypersphere set but with the numbers front printed, so it looks like a tkl until you num lock and then the num pad set would be like your set 3. That basically allows you to mix the usual tkl set with the classic top layer of the Model M style num pad.

I love the front printed F row and would definitely go with that option if possible.

I also love the HHKB set. I don't use a HHKB, but the del key solves a problem for me (which would mean I would need to ditch the ISO return key), as does the split right shift. I assume I would need the fn key to use the F keys on the top row (especially if i can get them front printed). I would be fine having to invoke num lock with a multiple key set since I would toggle that on and off (as opposed to needing to use a single fn key) .

Thanks again.

[evoman]

As I was working up the list of legends and keys, various options started coming to mind. These are all just proposals at this point. Some of the keys may end up being included in the sets which are already available, some may end up in a new kit or kits. Some may be a bit too ambitious. Are media keys that popular on smaller boards like the F62 and F77?

Now is the time to let your opinions be heard. I sent Ellipse a novelty with the buckling spring patent drawing, and he thought there was too much detail to be reproduced well so if you have any other ideas, let me know.

The media keys look great, but I don't see space for them (though perhaps some can fill those blank slots on the option 1 right side cluster. I am definitely a fan of using front printing to add some options like media keys. I have a hard time remembering custom programs. For example, when I swapped the caps on my Novatouch and lost the media key legends, I quickly forgot which key does what, so I no longer us media keys

[martink]

For the base set, how do you feel about a 1.5u Fn key? I can imagine using a layout with Control on Caps Lock and Fn in the bottom left ("the other laptop layout," maybe this belongs in the "Mac" set).

[Ellipse]

Yes evoman the layouts are customizable after the factory defaults. You can use the xwhatsit GUI software to change the layout and you can physically move around the keys to customize your layout after your keyboard arrives. All keyboard key set orders come with the full ~103 key set.

And thanks to Zed for taking on the key legend design.

I like the textless Model F style legends shown by Zed (for alternative option keys to consider).

caltemus I have decided to buy all the dye sublimation equipment myself and do the dye sublimation. I am working with a dye sublimation equipment supplier to help me set everything up. The legends should be bold and sharp like those of the XT.

evoman there will be no front printing unless you get one of the following specialty sets-Industrial SSK and F1, F2 front printed top row keys. Yes you can currently order the front printed F1 keys - it is a separate store item.

martink yes I can see a Fn legend key to replace the legend on the right ctrl key, or just leave the key blank.

[Korzenowski]

An interesting development, Ellipse. One that gives you much more flexibility and control over what is offered.

Looking at Zed's designs, I prefer the "F style" keys to the "M style" keys shown in the prototype pictures.

And I particularly like the novelty "F62"/"F77" keys for their amusement value.

The media control keys, attractive as they are, seem a little redundant on these boards. Where would one put them? They'd be rather nice for my F122 keyboard though.

And at the risk of causing controversy, I have a suggestion to make life easier and more flexible for everyone, at least as far as the F77 is concerned. Given that the keys form a relatively small part of the overall cost, would it not be simpler just to include a complete set of standard keys rather than specify which right-hand cluster option is required? For the cost of an additional 13 keys it simplifies the build and gives users the option to change layout in the future, if they wish.

In terms of project scope creep, these keys have been the worst offender. We've gone from Model M keys from Unicomp and no intention of creating your own, all the way to the other extreme where you have duplicated Model F keys. Now, that's lovely and the end result will undoubtedly be a magnificent product and all the better for the custom keys - but at the expense of yet more delays. It seems that the delivery date moves back one month every month. You've already set expectations that we are not going to see them this year; any more delays or hold ups and I can't see us getting anything before this time next year.

However, you should temper my exasperation with the recognition that one appreciates your dogged determination to see this project through. I'm sure many others would have given up by now. I also appreciate the efforts you've made to ensure what's delivered is exactly to specification and refuse to accept "adequate" as good enough. One cannot help but imagine you would not have had any of these issues with a German or Japanese supplier.

Finally, on a more positive note: since you now have control over key printing, will front-printed keys use a different ink colour to the main legends, as per SSK keys?

[Ellipse]

The key legends are not holding up the project. Please check out the blog at www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog for the production status of each part and an explanation of the challenges of bringing back 1980s parts.

We have at least a month of injection molding before the thousands of keys are ready for dye sublimation, so we have time to decide on legends without bottlenecking anything.

Yes all keyboards include the full ~103 key sets. The right hand F77 block is just for the factory configuration.

The top two challenges have been the exacting tolerances as well as reviving old production standards such as the custom texture and color of the powdercoating and the exact radius requirements of the top inner assembly steel plates (the latter requiring a complete retooling for the top inner assembly parts, currently underway). Both have resulted in delays.

All legends will be black. The legends will default to the standard Model M text on the modifiers, but I hope to offer the F style legends as extra add-on keys later this year after the current orders go out. There are no SSK or other sublegends besides those in the Industrial SSK and F1 subprinting add-on key sets.

[evoman]

Yes all keyboards include the full ~103 key sets. The right hand F77 block is just for the factory configuration.

All legends will be black. The legends will default to the standard Model M text on the modifiers, but I hope to offer the F style legends as extra add-on keys later this year after the current orders go out. There are no SSK or other sublegends besides those in the Industrial SSK and F1 subprinting add-on key sets.

Thanks for clarifying - so it sounds like there is no need to worry about the configuration of the right side block at this point since I can just swap keycaps. What about the other options, like the split shift key etc? Is that part of the full ~103 keys?

I had missed the fact that the front printed F keys were a separate option and already listed. Will the legends match the rest of the set? I really like those given the layout (I use a tkl regularly, but it has the function row)

[NathanA]

As far as the F77 number pad/nav cluster. [...]

I very much love that your #3 is a thing that is being discussed, because it is very very close to what I've been envisioning and trying to figure out how to make a reality on my boards when they arrive. The F77 layout is *so close* to my ideal "navless" model F Platonic Ideal keyboard, save for the fact that the right-side cluster is 3x5 instead of 4x5, which makes things just that much more challenging.

I originally had envisioned Esc / Num Lock / - on the top row, and thought perhaps Enter and + could double-up on the bottom-right key. It isn't ideal, but reaching down in that corner for + with my pinky at the time seemed like a more natural fit. However, even before you posted this I had come to the conclusion that having + anywhere but directly on the side of the numbers was going to be awkward no matter what, and that it would be better not to have to hold a modifier to engage either + or Enter, so my compromise was Num Lock / - / + with a dedicated 1U Enter exactly as you pictured.

The only things I would add are these:

• With NumLk off, - should act as PrtScn/SysRq, and + should act as Pause/Break. (Fn - can continue to be / and Fn + can continue to be *)
• Please please please include a version of the tilde (~) that has an "Esc" secondary (front) legend on it, for those who bought the optional top-row number keys with the F1-F12 secondary legends on them. Then Fn+Tilde can be Esc.

That leaves Scroll Lock as the only unaccounted for key. I don't really care so much about that one, but Fn+5 (center 5 in the number cluster), or even just 5 without Num Lock engaged, would work nicely as a Scroll Lock, esp. given that that key does absolutely zilch when Num Lock is not on.

I can of course program up the keys to work how I want, but it would be *nice* if I could acquire caps with legends on them that reflect what the keys actually do. Frustratingly, I've exchanged a couple of e-mails with Unicomp, but they do not seem willing to entertain the idea of filling key orders with custom legends. So I'm not sure where to turn at this point.

-- Nathan