F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[ryvnf]

Yes all keyboards include the full ~103 key sets. The right hand F77 block is just for the factory configuration.

Does this also include F62 keyboards?

I think many of us who bought F62 keyboards would like the extra keys to put on other keyboards or put on alphanumeric keys to indicate the function layer, also considering that the cost of F77 with full set of keys costs the same as F62 with full set of keys.

[Clavius]

F77 Num Pad 3.PNG (27.3 KiB) Viewed 51524 times

I took the plunge and ordered the F77 config #2. I love my XT 5155 because it's compact but still has a numpad which is crucial for me to punch numbers into excel. Only thing that I hate is having to constantly fumble with numlock. With Config #2 I can both enter numbers and change cells at the same time, while also other downsides of the XT are improved upon (no more miniscule enter key!). Man, I cant wait

[Ellipse]

Yes ryvnf all keyboards are F62 and F77 keyboards, with both compact and regular style cases.

[evoman]

I put my order in for the HHKB set and the front printed top row, so I think I will be able to create just about any custom configuration I can think of. If this works out as well as I am hoping I will have a couple of Model Ms for sale at some point! (and perhaps a Topre board or two!)-

[Zed]

For any of those last minute orders or changes. Ellipse thought it would be helpful to show all the different layouts which are available. As usual, the font/icons are just placeholders.

[Zed]

And some examples of what the different key set options look like. The last one uses keys which are only proposed at this point. I will have some examples of what the actual reproduction font looks like shortly.

[oropeth]

This is still just the early-bird round, right? And there will be a production run later?

[doom2]

Just chiming in to say I got to try these boards at GH KeyCon last weekend and they were great! Don't have room for one at the moment but hope a lot of people find joy in them.

[wobbled]

Just chiming in to say I got to try these boards at GH KeyCon last weekend and they were great! Don't have room for one at the moment but hope a lot of people find joy in them.

Thanks for posting this, hearing random people saying they're awesome makes me that much more excited to finally get mine!

[mana]

If that enter and escape keys are made I want them!

[Ellipse]

Yes oropeth.

Yes mana the extra Model F style legends will be made - if anyone's interested in them please order 3 units per key of the store item "$1 increments" and specify the key legend, key size, and key color.

[mana]

Could you please amend my order to have a blue escape and ANSI enter key instead of the spare flippers and barrels - I have emailed to this effect and will top up the difference.

[Ellipse]

yep mana - replied over email

[evoman]

Yes oropeth.

Yes mana the extra Model F style legends will be made - if anyone's interested in them please order 3 units per key of the store item "$1 increments" and specify the key legend, key size, and key color.

I suppose the issue is knowing which ones are actually available. I assume this means the F style but not the blue ones (aside from the industrial SSK ones). I have no use for the actual industrial SSK set, but the blue enter keys and esc in the last set would be tempting.

Is there a single summary of all key options available? I see that Zed has summarised these above, but I am not sure which Model F ones are available since those seem to appear in the layout that is described as using ' keys which are only proposed at this point'. Cheers.

[Zed]

Apologies for any confusion Evoman. I wanted to make sure folks understood that the new keys I proposed had not yet been authorized for production but it looks like Ellipse is already taking some orders (at least for the ones he is a fan of!).

I joined this project just a few days ago and it has been a rush job just to get any kind of graphics worked up while I am working away on the font. This has led to a bit of a 'throw it against the wall and see what sticks' kind of approach that is more confusing than it should be. Ellipse will no doubt be along shortly to clarify and I am sure we will work up a list of extra caps he is willing to produce but this might not happen before the early bird deadline tomorrow. At this point, all I can suggest is make your requests for extra caps and see what Ellipse has to say.

[Zed]

I would normally wait a few days until I had the rest of the legends finished before posting pics but here is the current state of the F XT Quality Legends reproduction for the benefit of the fence-sitting early birds. The mods are the 'F Style' icon only since I have not yet done the lower case letters and more importantly, because it looks pretty cool! All these legends are hand drawn from a very high resolution scan of original Model F keys provided by Ellipse.

[ryvnf]

I would normally wait a few days until I had the rest of the legends finished before posting pics but here is the current state of the F XT Quality Legends reproduction for the benefit of the fence-sitting early birds. The mods are the 'F Style' icon only since I have not yet done the lower case letters and more importantly, because it looks pretty cool! All these legends are hand drawn from a very high resolution scan of original Model F keys provided by Ellipse.

Very nice so far!

I am wondering about how the 1.5U Backspace key will look. In the image you posted earlier the key legend is "Delete". I don't like that.

I would prefer if it would look something like:

Code: Select all

<-- Back
    Space

[/b]

There might be little room to fit everything but the Sun keyboards with Unix layout managed to do it!

[Zed]

Thanks rvynf. The 1.5u Delete is the official HHKB legend but I am also not a fan. Like you, I would prefer a backspace in that slot (with a 1u Delete right above it). We know that just an arrow for backspace will work but until I start working on the lower case letters, I don't really know how the spacing will work out with an arrow and a text legend. 'Bs' would be a mildly provocative/amusing option perhaps.

[evoman]

I would normally wait a few days until I had the rest of the legends finished before posting pics but here is the current state of the F XT Quality Legends reproduction for the benefit of the fence-sitting early birds. The mods are the 'F Style' icon only since I have not yet done the lower case letters and more importantly, because it looks pretty cool! All these legends are hand drawn from a very high resolution scan of original Model F keys provided by Ellipse.

No problem from my side - I am really happy to see all the options being developed! I really like the keys without the wording (like the backspace, enter, and shift keys). To be honest, the exact legends are not critical to me, I just like the fact that these clean up the appearance and makes the whole thing a bit cleaner and more functional.

[NathanA]

As far as the F77 number pad/nav cluster. [...]

[...] That leaves Scroll Lock as the only unaccounted for key.

I forgot about the most obvious solution to this: having Fn+NumLk function as Scroll Lock. IBM even made a key with these legends (NumLk on top, ScrLk on bottom) for some SSK boards.

So, I read through the newest replies, as well as the ones over at GH, and I'm still confused: is F77 side-cluster layout #3 for sure on offer now?

Any comments on a front-legend Esc added on Tilde for the F1-F12 set, or for option #3, printing PrtScn (top)/SysRq (front) on - and Pause (top)/Break (front) on +?

-- Nathan

[NathanA]

...also, if nobody is interested in printing these keys, I'm still looking for some entity that can. Anybody have any experience with these guys? If you ask them to just print text, how closely does their font match either the official F or M one?: https://www.etsy.com/shop/DecentKeyboards

-- Nathan

[Zed]

As far as the F77 number pad/nav cluster. [...]

[...] That leaves Scroll Lock as the only unaccounted for key.

I forgot about the most obvious solution to this: having Fn+NumLk function as Scroll Lock. IBM even made a key with these legends (NumLk on top, ScrLk on bottom) for some SSK boards.

So, I read through the newest replies, as well as the ones over at GH, and I'm still confused: is F77 side-cluster layout #3 for sure on offer now?

Any comments on a front-legend Esc added on Tilde for the F1-F12 set, or for option #3, printing PrtScn (top)/SysRq (front) on - and Pause (top)/Break (front) on +?

-- Nathan

I sure hope the #3 option is offered. Ellipse?

Sounds like you have the Fn layer stuff worked out. I would go with I, O, P for prInt, scrOll lOck and Pause but those are keys I never really use so it's the only way I could possibly remember when I do need them 2 years from now.

As far as getting keys printed form etsy, keep in mind that the font files will become open source at some point so if you can find a vendor who will accept artwork, I would think you stand a good chance of getting a close match. I would also be happy to assist working up the artwork for extra keys using the F font for those keys you might wish to get printed.

[emdude]

As far as getting keys printed form etsy, keep in mind that the font files will become open source at some point so if you can find a vendor who will accept artwork, I would think you stand a good chance of getting a close match. I would also be happy to assist working up the artwork for extra keys using the F font for those keys you might wish to get printed.

I was just about to ask about this. This is excellent news.

Your work is looking fantastic so far, perhaps Unicomp can have it replace the awful bold Helvetica they currently use for their keysets. They still have some of the old IBM/Lexmark dye-sublimation templates/stencils but no longer use them unless one requests them. I'm not sure why, perhaps it's because they are probably not in a digital format (but someone can correct me on this, I don't know much of the dyesub process other than it is performed these days with an inkjet printer and some special materials).

[Zed]

I would love to know more about the design process IBM used for these caps now that I have spent quite a bit of time working on reproducing them. They obviously started with Helvetica Bold (the leg on the R is the giveaway) but then did stuff like squashing the W so it wouldn't be any wider than the other legends. All the corners are slightly rounded off as well but it's not at a Helvetica Rounded level. These somewhat rounded endcaps take the most time by far to reproduce BTW. I don't know if they are an artifact of the production process or an intentional design element.

I am really looking forward to Ellipse getting his dye sub rig up and running and learning more about the process as well. Very interesting to hear about Unicomp still having the old legend templates too. Even if they could be persuaded to pull them out of retirement or reproduce them accurately, I would still worry about the care they show aligning them properly on the caps.

[emdude]

Unicomp did use the old legends up until a couple of years ago. Several of their product page photos feature keyboards or keysets that use them. I personally ordered two different custom keysets with older legends, one with SSK legends and the other with English-Cyrillic. I posted photos of the former here: other-news-f47/stuff-you-just-bought-t1 ... ml#p363950. The alignment was perfect with both keysets.

Your observation regarding the W character is very interesting, that character I find particularly fascinating and distinct in separating IBM's version of Helvetica from the rest.

[ryvnf]

Thanks rvynf. The 1.5u Delete is the official HHKB legend but I am also not a fan. Like you, I would prefer a backspace in that slot (with a 1u Delete right above it). We know that just an arrow for backspace will work but until I start working on the lower case letters, I don't really know how the spacing will work out with an arrow and a text legend. 'Bs' would be a mildly provocative/amusing option perhaps.

I think having it labeled delete would make more since if we had 1U Alt keys and 1.5U Meta/Super keys, then it is consistently following the official HHKB legends. As it isn't followed on the bottom-row modifiers I don't think we should follow it on Backspace.

I don't think anyone here uses Backspace as Delete and I think keys should be labeled according to their function. I know nothing is final yet, just want to share the opinion now rather than later.

Also if we decide to abbreviate Backspace I think Bksp would be the better choice (more similar to how Control is abbreviated Ctrl).

My suggestion if it isn't too much work is to make three versions:

Code: Select all

Delete

Code: Select all

<- Back
   Space

Code: Select all

<- Bksp

And decide which one to use based on the responses that comes up.

[consolation]

As far as the F77 number pad/nav cluster.

F77 Num Pad 3.PNG

2 - Looks great but not so great if you need to do any math or need math operator numpad codes (like Blender). Allows easy access to nav arrows without the hassle of hitting a Fn or Num Lock key.

I would look at how the cm laid out the numpad on their TK (navless) keyboards. It's a much better way of having the nav cluster and num pad in one block. You get the traditional nav key layout instead of the weird numpad nav and you get the numpad keys.

[Zed]

@emdude Wow! That is the best printed Unicomp I think I have ever seen. The great pics and the nifty SSK legends certainly don't hurt either. I don't know if I should be encouraged that they can do great work on the legend alignment or even more annoyed that they just don't seem to care very much for their regular production models when they obviously have the capability to do the job right. Do I remember reading that they upgraded their dye sub process to improve quality a year or so back?

@ryvnf I hear you. I will see what I can do. Is the backspace with just the arrow icon not to your liking?

@consolation If I am looking at the right Cooler Master models, they have a full 4 column number block to work with. The F77 only has 3 columns so we have to get a bit creative.

[ryvnf]

@ryvnf I hear you. I will see what I can do. Is the backspace with just the arrow icon not to your liking?

Thanks, you are doing a very good job so far.

Arrow-icon only does fit very well into the "F-style" icon only.

But arrow-icon only would look inconsistent in the standard option where all other keys are labeled with name.

[consolation]

@consolation If I am looking at the right Cooler Master models, they have a full 4 column number block to work with. The F77 only has 3 columns so we have to get a bit creative.

That's true - but the nav cluster is only 3 wide to... the difference is that, for example, rather than having the page up/down on 9 & 3 they are on 9 & 6 - laid out the same way as the traditional cluster so you don't have to think about which key to press. Column 4 is just math ops, not really that important as they are on the RH side of the KB anyway.

Chyrosran22 did a review of one of their boards where he describes how it works: imho this is a far more sensible way of going about it - it works really well in practice.

The relevant part of the video is at 3m20s -> https://youtu.be/ksMYG9NsNMY?t=3m20s

We can further improve this idea by having the inverse T arrow keys have a homing bar / nipple on them, so you could orientated your hand to them without looking (or on their bottom row to separate from the 5 nipple). A split rshift/backspace would be a good place to host the numpad button.