Alps Appreciation

[arkanoid]

Didn't know were to post this query but since this is the ALPs appreciation thread, I'll put it here.

I want to buy a refurbished keyboard off this guy here http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/

His name is Bob Tibbetts so what are people's perception of him, is he decent or deceitful?

You know what it's like buying off the web from some person you have never dealt with before, hence I am very curious to know what other DT forum users experiences were when dealing with him?

He's not selling anything cheap, so I need to do this research before handing over money to this guy for any of his keyboards.

Please, anything about this guy would help, so don't be shy about letting us know whether he's a 'genuine', honest Seller or a confirmed Shyster?

He has been running that website for quite a long time. I think he's trustable. He attaches a golden sticker with his name and service date on the back of the keyboard. I have two omnikeys with that sticker, but those had been serviced before I bought them. Not sure about his pricing or if his skill is much better than other experts on this forum.

[Mattr567]

He also has a bunch of NIB SKCM Black Wang 725's. Got one off someone else who got it from him.

Seems like a pretty trustable dude, though his prices are a bit high.

[Elrick]

He also has a bunch of NIB SKCM Black Wang 725's. Got one off someone else who got it from him.

Seems like a pretty trustable dude, though his prices are a bit high.

Thanks for letting me now, much appreciated .

It's just from his email, he mentioned he doesn't take apart ALPs switches to clean them at all, rather just to clean up the outside of the switch and around the keyboard area.

Had me worried because you guys know what ALPs switches are like when dust gets inside them, they become AWFUL so it looks like far better to buy the newer models still sealed from the outside dust and general usage. Shame how ALPs degrade so quickly compared to it's dreaded enemy, the CherryMX.

[seebart]

Had me worried because you guys know what ALPs switches are like when dust gets inside them, they become AWFUL so it looks like far better to buy the newer models still sealed from the outside dust and general usage. Shame how ALPs degrade so quickly compared to it's dreaded enemy, the CherryMX.

Very true. But we don't really know how "fast" Alps SKCM/SKCL "degrade" which is in the worst case a combination of wear and dirt. I own various combinations where it's not quite clear what is worse and you never really know what that praticular keyboard has "been through" in the past decades. Sorry to hear that you considder CherryMX the "dreaded enemy".

[Chyros]

Didn't know were to post this query but since this is the ALPs appreciation thread, I'll put it here.

I want to buy a refurbished keyboard off this guy here http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/

His name is Bob Tibbetts so what are people's perception of him, is he decent or deceitful?

You know what it's like buying off the web from some person you have never dealt with before, hence I am very curious to know what other DT forum users experiences were when dealing with him?

He's not selling anything cheap, so I need to do this research before handing over money to this guy for any of his keyboards.

Please, anything about this guy would help, so don't be shy about letting us know whether he's a 'genuine', honest Seller or a confirmed Shyster?

That's Northgate Bob, he's fairly well-known. I don't think I've ever heard anything bad about him .

That said, for some reason he's convinced blue and white Alps are identical :p .

[seebart]

That said, for some reason he's convinced blue and white Alps are identical :p .

If I recall I believe he said ALL Alps SKCM were "basically the same". Of course that would be good (for us) because blue Alps are not more expensive then...

[Luxanna]

Pull out pitchforks, ALPS fans (and yes, I know that simply "ALPS" will work)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3VBQwv ... e=youtu.be

[Polecat]

If I recall I believe he said ALL Alps SKCM were "basically the same". Of course that would be good (for us) because blue Alps are not more expensive then...

That suggests he also thinks dirty/worn Alps switches are "basically the same" as new/pristine ones. Not good for those of us who would buy from him and are able to tell the difference.

Since we're talking Northgate, I have two original 102 boards in nice condition with sticker dates three weeks apart. One has blue Alps, the other early white Alps with no logo on top. If I was blindfolded I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two, sound or feel. Definitely different than the white Alps in my other boards, including later Northgates.

[seebart]

That suggests he also thinks dirty/worn Alps switches are "basically the same" as new/pristine ones. Not good for those of us who would buy from him and are able to tell the difference.

Possibly.

Since we're talking Northgate, I have two original 102 boards in nice condition with sticker dates three weeks apart. One has blue Alps, the other early white Alps with no logo on top. If I was blindfolded I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two, sound or feel. Definitely different than the white Alps in my other boards, including later Northgates.

I'd love to try that myself and also see our Alps SKCM experts try that which I don't considder myself.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Since we're talking Northgate, I have two original 102 boards in nice condition with sticker dates three weeks apart. One has blue Alps, the other early white Alps with no logo on top.

Two more candidates for wiki entries. Also, it raises the question: short white switchplate blue Alps, or, long white switchplate white Alps?

(One assumes that the model number changed with the change in slider material and corresponding change in pigment, but this isn't actually confirmed. And then there's SKCMCQ, the unknown clicky switch on sale in 1999. Same spec as white Alps, but a different part number. Tentative evidence suggests that bamboo switches kept their pine model numbers.)

Although we can think of Alps switches as having generations, the transition from first to second generation was fairly protracted. With enough such examples in the hands of the right people, it should be possible to determine exactly which modification resulted in the change in the force curve. It's going to be at least one of the springs (click leaf, actuator leaf and return), possibly two or more of them altered (e.g. one spring lighter and the other heavier to compensate).

[Polecat]

That suggests he also thinks dirty/worn Alps switches are "basically the same" as new/pristine ones. Not good for those of us who would buy from him and are able to tell the difference.

Possibly.

Since we're talking Northgate, I have two original 102 boards in nice condition with sticker dates three weeks apart. One has blue Alps, the other early white Alps with no logo on top. If I was blindfolded I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two, sound or feel. Definitely different than the white Alps in my other boards, including later Northgates.

I'd love to try that myself and also see our Alps SKCM experts try that which I don't considder myself.

I'm not presuming to speak for Mr. Tibbetts, of course, but it should be pretty obvious to anyone in the Alps biz that there were many variations, and that those should be acknowledged if the switch type is important to the customer. Also, it's been said, and I don't disagree, that the Alps switches degrade with use, and/or with age (dust, etc.), and that this can make a bigger difference in the switch feel (and sound) than the specific switch version. And in my opinion that also needs to be considered in purchasing a used keyboard. I've never dealt with him, and I'm not selling anything, just sharing my own experience with these keyboards.

[Polecat]

Since we're talking Northgate, I have two original 102 boards in nice condition with sticker dates three weeks apart. One has blue Alps, the other early white Alps with no logo on top.

Two more candidates for wiki entries. Also, it raises the question: short white switchplate blue Alps, or, long white switchplate white Alps?

(One assumes that the model number changed with the change in slider material and corresponding change in pigment, but this isn't actually confirmed. And then there's SKCMCQ, the unknown clicky switch on sale in 1999. Same spec as white Alps, but a different part number. Tentative evidence suggests that bamboo switches kept their pine model numbers.)

Although we can think of Alps switches as having generations, the transition from first to second generation was fairly protracted. With enough such examples in the hands of the right people, it should be possible to determine exactly which modification resulted in the change in the force curve. It's going to be at least one of the springs (click leaf, actuator leaf and return), possibly two or more of them altered (e.g. one spring lighter and the other heavier to compensate).

I have fourteen Northgates in total, saved from the recycling/surplus biz I worked at in the '80s and '90s. With some guidance on what to look for I'd be happy to share photos and info on any or all of them. I haven't found a web page that shows the different generations and variations of the Northgate keyboards, even though there seems to be some interest in them. I can desolder or disassemble switches, if that would help, and I can take marginal photos. But I'm not a programmer. The last time I did any programming beyond a DOS batch file was rewriting a botched inventory program in MBasic on a Morrow MD2 back in 1985, and I've forgotten more since then than I ever knew in the first place. So someone else would have to do that part.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

What needs to be programmed?

[seebart]

What needs to be programmed?

For our wiki entries? Nothing.

I have fourteen Northgates in total, saved from the recycling/surplus biz I worked at in the '80s and '90s. With some guidance on what to look for I'd be happy to share photos and info on any or all of them. I haven't found a web page that shows the different generations and variations of the Northgate keyboards, even though there seems to be some interest in them. I can desolder or disassemble switches, if that would help, and I can take marginal photos. But I'm not a programmer. The last time I did any programming beyond a DOS batch file was rewriting a botched inventory program in MBasic on a Morrow MD2 back in 1985, and I've forgotten more since then than I ever knew in the first place. So someone else would have to do that part.

Go ahead and shoot those pictures and upload them to a pic hoster if you can or send them to me if you like. There is no "programming" involved in entering data to the DT wiki! Not sure why anyone would think that?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The wiki syntax isn't that complicated, and there's a toolbar that enters the codes for you:

==Heading 1==
===Heading 2===
====Heading 3====

'''bold'''
''italic''
[[[wiki]Cherry[/wiki]]]
[[File:Some image here.jpg]]

*bullets
#​numbering

You learn by example: copy and paste from other pages and edit accordingly. The more awkward parts can be readily adapted from copy/paste from pages that already have what you're looking for (references, galleries etc).

[Elrick]

I just discovered a very strange keyboard box downstairs in the basement.

It looks like I purchased a shipment of gear last year, late 2016 and the box which oddly enough contains a keyboard manufactured in TAIWAN.

It's name is the K76M Made by iRocks. YES, I see all the hardcore ALPS aficionados smirking their faces at this, thinking that no company can make an ALPs like keyboard today. I kid you not, I have an all White coloured keyboard with that very dubious lego-ilke top plate, which the youngsters saw and now want it for themselves.

Currently typing on it and it actually feels alright. Not as loud as the traditional White Alps switches but very tactile with dampening. Definitely NO pings at all despite typing with my heavy fingers.

The ONLY downside of this keyboard is that fact it comes with a fixed white usb cable and it's all white Lego keyboard surface plate, but thus far it's been very easy to use it and you do have a detailed key-cap description (which to press in combination) to enable some features of the keyboard, illustrated on the back end of the keyboard.

Just am very surprised of it's features plus it's type feeling. Here I was encapsulated with the OLDER is better fanaticism when it fact you DO have interesting keyboards for sale, if not made today certainly was made during 2016.

[depletedvespene]

... if not made today certainly was made during 2016.

Now Wait for Last Year. (good ol' Dick, always ahead of his time)

[Polecat]

Two more candidates for wiki entries. Also, it raises the question: short white switchplate blue Alps, or, long white switchplate white Alps?

(One assumes that the model number changed with the change in slider material and corresponding change in pigment, but this isn't actually confirmed. And then there's SKCMCQ, the unknown clicky switch on sale in 1999. Same spec as white Alps, but a different part number. Tentative evidence suggests that bamboo switches kept their pine model numbers.)

Although we can think of Alps switches as having generations, the transition from first to second generation was fairly protracted. With enough such examples in the hands of the right people, it should be possible to determine exactly which modification resulted in the change in the force curve. It's going to be at least one of the springs (click leaf, actuator leaf and return), possibly two or more of them altered (e.g. one spring lighter and the other heavier to compensate).

Quick update on the white Alps switches. Photo attached, sorry for the bad quality, it's a three dollar camera. These are from a June 1989 Northgate keyboard, just after the transition from blue to white. Unbranded upper housings, Alps oval logo on the bottom like blues.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Curious, a date mark on the PCB. I don't associate that with Focus, but I'm not sure I've ever seen the top of a Focus PCB before. (We don't know that Focus were involved with the Omnikey, or whether Northgate's OEM shared one or more suppliers with Focus.)

[seebart]

Photo attached, sorry for the bad quality, it's a three dollar camera.

Pretty good for a three-dollar camera!

[Polecat]

Curious, a date mark on the PCB. I don't associate that with Focus, but I'm not sure I've ever seen the top of a Focus PCB before. (We don't know that Focus were involved with the Omnikey, or whether Northgate's OEM shared one or more suppliers with Focus.)

A few more photos of the same Northgate. <attached> Let me know what's important while I have it apart. I'll do the blue Alps version next. I have several Focus keyboards here also if you need info or photos for those. The Focus boards, or some of them at least, had a label similar to the 8 digit one ("No. 80805372"). The paper labels on the Northgates probably didn't survive well, but this one and the one on the blue Alps version from three weeks earlier are still intact.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

You seem to have covered pretty much everything in terms of close-up details, but a picture of the entire internals from above and again from below is always good. If there are multiple ICs it's best to cover all of them to help with interpreting the date codes, or where the one in the photo turns out not to have any recognisable date code. Here, though, it's not all that relevant as there are plenty of dates.

[Polecat]

You seem to have covered pretty much everything in terms of close-up details, but a picture of the entire internals from above and again from below is always good. If there are multiple ICs it's best to cover all of them to help with interpreting the date codes, or where the one in the photo turns out not to have any recognisable date code. Here, though, it's not all that relevant as there are plenty of dates.

Three more. This is what I call a "first generation" Northgate, with built-in cord, only an XT/AT switch, and the control key in the early position, next to the "A" key. Gold label on the case. I'll take a couple more photos once it's back together. This one was very clean inside. All I did was brush out a bit of dust and clean the caps and case. Single PC board inside, mounted to the *top* of the case, not to the bottom like the later ones. Two pin connector for the switch; four pin for the cable. 5 pin DIN plug.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I'm guessing that you don't have a cleaner cloth to use as the background? :-)

[Chyros]

Wow, that's amazing. My blue Alps gold-label one is less than two months older than your white Alps one Oo .



I knew mine was a very late example, but jeez xD . Looks like both ours are very close to the "switch point", if there was such a thing.

Serial number sticker looks identical, and numbers aren't far off. The revision number and p/n are identical, even the vendor ID is the same. The model sticker is a little different, though.

[snarfbot]

I just discovered a very strange keyboard box downstairs in the basement.

It looks like I purchased a shipment of gear last year, late 2016 and the box which oddly enough contains a keyboard manufactured in TAIWAN.

It's name is the K76M Made by iRocks. YES, I see all the hardcore ALPS aficionados smirking their faces at this, thinking that no company can make an ALPs like keyboard today. I kid you not, I have an all White coloured keyboard with that very dubious lego-ilke top plate, which the youngsters saw and now want it for themselves.

Currently typing on it and it actually feels alright. Not as loud as the traditional White Alps switches but very tactile with dampening. Definitely NO pings at all despite typing with my heavy fingers.

The ONLY downside of this keyboard is that fact it comes with a fixed white usb cable and it's all white Lego keyboard surface plate, but thus far it's been very easy to use it and you do have a detailed key-cap description (which to press in combination) to enable some features of the keyboard, illustrated on the back end of the keyboard.

Just am very surprised of it's features plus it's type feeling. Here I was encapsulated with the OLDER is better fanaticism when it fact you DO have interesting keyboards for sale, if not made today certainly was made during 2016.

Hey can you post a video of the keyboard? there isn't alot of information out about these switches and the only reviews of this keyboard were done by those YouTube "unboxer" guys who just talk continually over the entire video with some edm in the background, while showing the thing from different angles.

[Polecat]

Wow, that's amazing. My blue Alps gold-label one is less than two months older than your white Alps one Oo .

I knew mine was a very late example, but jeez xD . Looks like both ours are very close to the "switch point", if there was such a thing.

Serial number sticker looks identical, and numbers aren't far off. The revision number and p/n are identical, even the vendor ID is the same. The model sticker is a little different, though.

Neat! I believe there was a "switch point" where white replaced blue, just one of the many changes in the SKCM story that the nice folks here have documented. Hopefully I can help with info from the keyboards I have here.

As far as I know, the only Northgate model that was available at first was the 102. Very early versions had a black plate, but that changed to silver (bare metal) while the blue Alps switches were still being used. Gold label on the case, fixed location of the control key (next to "A"), built-in cord, XT/AT slide switch, no dipswitches, single board inside mounted to the upper case. I'm calling those "Generation 1" here, for lack of an official designation.

Here's another example that would narrow down the change even further, to about a three week period, assuming there was a "switch point" from blue to white:

[Polecat]

I'm guessing that you don't have a cleaner cloth to use as the background?

That is my cleaner cloth; in fact it's been used to clean every keyboard I've posted here. Ok, ok, next time we're at the good Walmart I'll see if they have a nicer one. What color would you like?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Well, on the 1E−10 chance that you ever add anything to the wiki, you may as well get the photos to look as good as they can. I gave up with trying to get good indoor photos, and only ever shoot outdoors now (but that does require summer sun angle sadly to clear shadow-casting trees). Outdoor lighting also resolves the problem of the image darkening at the top due to the increased distance from the flash; for small items I have my ghetto reflector and hours of Photoshop adjustment to undo the mess.

Many colours and textures can be made to work well as a background, but I prefer neutral (white/grey/black). Those green grid mats work well too, and wooden floors and tables are great if you have the lighting (the combination of camera, light and surface of the dining table comes out horrible for me, but under the right set-up it works out great).

Ultimately, though, clean and tidy is the best place to start, since that's often the limit of anyone's ability, equipment, lighting and skills.

[Polecat]

Well, on the 1E−10 chance that you ever add anything to the wiki, you may as well get the photos to look as good as they can. I gave up with trying to get good indoor photos, and only ever shoot outdoors now (but that does require summer sun angle sadly to clear shadow-casting trees). Outdoor lighting also resolves the problem of the image darkening at the top due to the increased distance from the flash; for small items I have my ghetto reflector and hours of Photoshop adjustment to undo the mess.

Many colours and textures can be made to work well as a background, but I prefer neutral (white/grey/black). Those green grid mats work well too, and wooden floors and tables are great if you have the lighting (the combination of camera, light and surface of the dining table comes out horrible for me, but under the right set-up it works out great).

Ultimately, though, clean and tidy is the best place to start, since that's often the limit of anyone's ability, equipment, lighting and skills.

Thanks, points well taken, I do appreciate the tips and suggestions. I'm working in a cramped garage, but I can try the outdoor lighting. The shadow is actually from my finger partway over the flash on my three dollar thrift store camera. I haven't figured out the tiny icons in the menus so that's how I'm adjusting the light level at the moment.

My training is as an engineer, so I'm not very good at following rules or directions. Right now I'm just trying to get the info out there in case I fall off the edge of the Earth or get run over by a Mack truck. But I can probably find a clean(er) towel at least.