Alps Appreciation

[Elrick]

Just a quick question here for the ALPs Experts.

What time period did Focus FK-2001 Keyboards first started to use Complicated White Alps switches, and also when did they shift to using Simplified White Switches?

[seebart]

What time period did Focus FK-2001 Keyboards first started to use Complicated White Alps switches

When they first came out 1988...

wiki/Focus_FK-2001

and also when did they shift to using Simplified White Switches?

Specifically? Unknown IMO. But I know we have several users here that could tell you more specifically!

wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It's news to me if anyone knows. It's not in [wiki]Keyboards and switches by year[/wiki] at all, and I only have three entries in my database: http://telcontar.net/KBK/Keycombo/family.php?id=24

Once everyone's made this information available, we will know.

Blue Alps is recorded from 1989, so I guess white Alps started from 1989 unless they had enough stock of them to carry them into 1990.

[Polecat]

What time period did Focus FK-2001 Keyboards first started to use Complicated White Alps switches

When they first came out 1988...

wiki/Focus_FK-2001

and also when did they shift to using Simplified White Switches?

Specifically? Unknown IMO. But I know we have several users here that could tell you more specifically!

wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series

Elrick my friend, I have six Focus boards here, as follows:

model switches serial # FCC case upper date lower date processor PCB date notes


FK-2001 blue SKCM 80752098 FSQ4VYFK-2001 2-89 3-89 8907 1988.11.10

FK-3001 white SKCM 1050307 FSQ4VY FK-3001 9-91 3-92 9046 - w/calc

FK-2001 white SKCM 921021721 FSQ4VYFK-2001 11-92 11-92 9242 1991.06.25 no winkeys

FK-2002? white SKCM 930202292 FSQ4VYFK-2001 12-92 1-92 9249 1991.06.25 no winkeys black case ISO enter key

FK-8000 white clones 940300921 FSQ4VY FK-8000 4-94 4-94 - - winkeys w/calc 3X yellow clones LED keys

FK-2001 cream clones 960001699 FSQ4VY FK-2001 6-94 12-94 - - winkeys reg nav


Sorry if the tabs from my WP get scrambled or lost in translation. There's a roughly two year gap in my boards between white SKCM Alps and clones, and between no winkeys and winkeys, so I'm not sure which changed first. Might not be a simple progression if there were multiple factories, etc. None of mine have SKBM/simplified Alps switches.

No winkeys on a 2001 likely means SKCM; winkeys is more likely to have clones, but more examples are needed in the 1992-1994 range. Were SKBM/simplified Alps used on Focus boards also?

There were even later FK-2001 boards with three extra keys at the top of the nav cluster, for wake-up or something like that.

- edited to correct one date and put the entries in order by date

[Daniel Beardsmore]

You need far more data before you can be certain that it's representative.

[Polecat]

You need far more data before you can be certain that it's representative.

I was very careful in my wording about that, just trying to provide more examples as requested. Don't ask me to wiki it; I don't know the language and don't have time to learn it right now.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Very tentatively, four-tab clones seem to have been introduced around 1991–92, with the OA2 → T1 changeover around 1994–95 (clones of Cherry MX go back a few years before that). This seems to be borne out by the confirmed association between Himake and Tai-Hao (just over Aruz, but early Tai-Hao APC and old Himake-style switches are almost identical) and the very approximate suggested introduction date of Tai-Hao APC of around that time.

However, I'm not making any proclamations until we have a much more solid body of evidence, and for that we would need a proper self-service keyboard database and a drastically higher level of raw data.

[Polecat]

Very tentatively, four-tab clones seem to have been introduced around 1991–92, with the OA2 → T1 changeover around 1994–95 (clones of Cherry MX go back a few years before that). This seems to be borne out by the confirmed association between Himake and Tai-Hao (just over Aruz, but early Tai-Hao APC and old Himake-style switches are almost identical) and the very approximate suggested introduction date of Tai-Hao APC of around that time.

However, I'm not making any proclamations until we have a much more solid body of evidence, and for that we would need a proper self-service keyboard database and a drastically higher level of raw data.

Elrick's original question was regarding the time period that complicated white Alps switches were used on Focus keyboards. From my examples, which are original and which I've owned for twenty years or more, I think it is safe to say, no, proclaim that Focus was using white complicated Alps (as defined and pictured in the wiki) as early as 1991, and as late as 1993. Naturally that doesn't mean every Focus board from that period used those switches, nor that Elrick should buy a Focus keyboard expecting white complicated Alps based on those dates.

You're welcome, of course, to delete my post and toss out the data, or to use it to add to the info base (and triple the number of examples on file...), I really don't care one way or the other at this point.

[Polecat]

Speaking of Focus FK-2001, we were recently talking about the green overlays on some of the Northgates, and I mentioned that I had seen them elsewhere. Just found this while searching for FK-2001:

http://hw001.spaaqs.ne.jp/kaineko2/album20120131.html

Yet another similarity between Focus and Northgate.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I really don't care one way or the other at this point.

Precisely. This level of detail is never more than a passing interest for most people here, so the investment in time and effort needed to approach it properly is simply not justifiable. The level of extrapolation from insufficient data, however …

[Elrick]

that Focus was using white complicated Alps (as defined and pictured in the wiki) as early as 1991, and as late as 1993. Naturally that doesn't mean every Focus board from that period used those switches, nor that Elrick should buy a Focus keyboard expecting white complicated Alps based on those dates.

Damn, trust Focus to keep this in the realm of possibilities. Have bought terrible conditioned Focus Keyboards off Flebay in the last four years and have never come across a single complicated white alps model. ALL were simplified, damaged switches that were rougher than a shingleback's hind quarters.

Just on the look out for a pristine conditioned Complicated White Alps keyboard not filled with dust, semen or coke. I maybe the only one NOT interested in Blue Alps at all. The pristine clickyness of the White Alps is what I'm after even after all these years when I first used one at work, all those decades ago.

As usual you ALPs experts have indeed supplied some hope here that my next purchase, might be indeed a Complicated White Alps model .

[fohat]

Keep a watch list open on ebay. I have waited literally years (at least 6-8 years once for an out-of-print book that turned up one day Buy-It-Now for a very reasonable price in immaculate condition!) and finally been rewarded. Searching for blue Alps, about 5-6 years ago before they were uber-hip, took over 2 years and a couple of false alarms before I got them in my hands.

A couple of years ago, I got an immaculate Northgate 101 that I am certain had never been used. It was from a computer shop, the box had been opened and there were clear adhesive stickers on many of the keys, obviously symbols for some obscure game (and a bugger to get off). I would bet that it had been sitting in the back room for decades, just waiting for me.

[Elrick]

Keep a watch list open on ebay.

A couple of years ago, I got an immaculate Northgate 101 that I am certain had never been used. It was from a computer shop, the box had been opened and there were clear adhesive stickers on many of the keys, obviously symbols for some obscure game (and a bugger to get off). I would bet that it had been sitting in the back room for decades, just waiting for me.

You've inspired me here, you're right about making a "Watch-List" because I will get notified of what I am looking for far quicker. When I'm bored with some time to kill off before end-of-shift, I sometimes waste it on Flebay Alps hunting.

Shall indeed hunt down rare, pristine NIB Alps keyboards because they have indeed hooked me in with their unique key switch feel.

[seebart]

Keep a watch list open on ebay.

A couple of years ago, I got an immaculate Northgate 101 that I am certain had never been used. It was from a computer shop, the box had been opened and there were clear adhesive stickers on many of the keys, obviously symbols for some obscure game (and a bugger to get off). I would bet that it had been sitting in the back room for decades, just waiting for me.

You've inspired me here, you're right about making a "Watch-List" because I will get notified of what I am looking for far quicker. When I'm bored with some time to kill off before end-of-shift, I sometimes waste it on Flebay Alps hunting.

Shall indeed hunt down rare, pristine NIB Alps keyboards because they have indeed hooked me in with their unique key switch feel.

The FK-2001 was produced in high numbers your bound to find one, also keep a look out in our marketplace! Good luck!

[Elrick]

The FK-2001 was produced in high numbers your bound to find one, also keep a look out in our marketplace! Good luck!

You bet, anyone who has a NIB, Complicated White Alps Focus, then I'm your future customer without hesitation .

[Polecat]

I really don't care one way or the other at this point.

Precisely. This level of detail is never more than a passing interest for most people here, so the investment in time and effort needed to approach it properly is simply not justifiable. The level of extrapolation from insufficient data, however …

I spent a couple hours searching out Focus info (similar to what I've been keeping on Northgates) and came up with 38 documented examples so far. All but two with serial numbers, and switch ID on most of them. Not sure how to post it other than as plain text from my WP, or if it's even worth sharing, but there is some rhyme and reason to the serial number formats (yes, they changed at least twice it appears) and also similarities to the Northgate numbering. <ducking the anti-proclamation police>

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Originally I recorded this information on [wiki]Keyboards and switches by year[/wiki] but since it's on the wiki, everyone refuses to touch it. It's also not scalable.

After that I created Keycombo which is far more powerful, but that's another story.

The problem is that there is no will within the community to have this accurate data, so nobody is concerned with ensuring that recording and mining it is possible.

I don't know what to recommend you, because the will of the people is not behind any such endeavour.

[Polecat]

...The problem is that there is no will within the community to have this accurate data, so nobody is concerned with ensuring that recording and mining it is possible.

I don't know what to recommend you, because the will of the people is not behind any such endeavour.

Well that sounds a bit presumptuous, but you would know better than I. It's a shame, because this seemed like the place to come for info on mechanical keyboards.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Another way to look at it — how would you expect to store all your details about Focus and Northgate keyboards? Would you expect to be able to extend this method to cover other brands, and for it to support some kind of data mining?

[Chyros]

...The problem is that there is no will within the community to have this accurate data, so nobody is concerned with ensuring that recording and mining it is possible.

I don't know what to recommend you, because the will of the people is not behind any such endeavour.

Well that sounds a bit presumptuous, but you would know better than I. It's a shame, because this seemed like the place to come for info on mechanical keyboards.

I'd also it's not quite THAT reason that people don't want to do it xD .

[smithyithy]

Built the first of my Alps64 boards: AEK60.

Alps64 PCB, SKCM Orange Alps (stripped, ultrasonic cleaned and dry-lubed; 70cN springs, 85cN space), stainless steel AEK plate, high profile alu case w/ stainless weight and sound dampening, AEK caps (ultrasonic cleaned) and stabs.



Build album: https://imgur.com/a/9wR77

It types sooo nice

[rich1051414]

Smithy, that is nearly exactly what I am going to do with my AEK with orange alps. Can you give me tips on efficiently desoldering the switches? I have various solder suckers, but I dread desoldering this whole board. Thankfully, I assume that since the AEK was back in the day, it will have lead solder and not that horrible pasty leadless solder that is near impossible to suck up? The AEK has one of my favorite fonts on a keyboard as well, so I am definitely going to keep the caps on them as well I am not a mac fan, but even I will admit it is so sexy.

Also, I am positive I am going to need stabilizer replacements, the stock ones are so frail. What did you use?

Finally, I was hoping to do a 75% layout, or at the very least keep the function keys, but there is obviously problems with this. This is the board I was wanting to use, as it seems like it would have full compatibility with my caps(It was basically designed for this purpose) however, as you probably know, the function keys are mounted sideways on the AEK. Not really sure what to do about that.

[smithyithy]

Hi dude. Well for starters, all the parts for this board, I bought separately. So the case I already owned, the PCB was from a groupbuy, the plate from another groupbuy. The caps I bought from MechMarket a while ago, so I never saw the original donor board, but they came with the original AEK stabilisers an I've had no problems with them. And the Orange Alps, were bought loose from someone on Discord - i bought a batch of 70, he cleaned them and installed the Sprit 70cN springs, but I wanted to go the extra mile so I stripped and ultrasonic cleaned them, re-lubed the stems and assembled them.

I have however, de-soldered a batch of SKCM Cream Damped from a Silicon Graphics donor board I won on ebay. The board itself was filthy and quite worse for wear, so I wasn't too concerned about saving the board as I just wanted the switches and key caps.

It wasn't the easiest experience, to be completely honest. All of the switch pins had been bent flat (flush to the PCB) before they were originally soldered, so the removal process was made a little harder.. I just used the soldering iron in the right hand, and solder sucker (one of those cheap springy ones) in the left hand.. heated and sucked until it appeared that all of the solder had been removed. Did that for all of the switches, then used some needle-nose pliers to bend out the switch pins so the switches could be removed from the board.

The switches all turned out fine but the PCB didn't fair very well (not that I was being particularly cautious in that regard). I'm not sure how the AEK compares in terms of de-soldering, my only advice would be to heat the solder up gently and as soon as it's loose, hit that sucker and grab what you can.

Regarding that LFK78 PCB - you can certainly use it for the AEK caps, but the F row/block I'm not sure about.. I think you'd be forced to rotate the key caps if you wanted to use the AEK ones, which might not look great. It's a strange design, that board, because I can't see how you'd get the F-keys to match the row profiles of the rest of the keys, regardless of the key set you used.. I think your best option might be DSA flat-profile caps..

[seebart]

Built the first of my Alps64 boards: AEK60.

If I were into 60% this is what I would build also with SKCM orange or salmon also. Nice work!

[smithyithy]

It's a good combo! I like it because it feels like it's still loyal to the original keyboard, but smaller and more modern

[mike52787]

[//gainsborough]

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang! That is clean!

[arkanoid]

Wow, that's amazing. My blue Alps gold-label one is less than two months older than your white Alps one Oo .

I knew mine was a very late example, but jeez xD . Looks like both ours are very close to the "switch point", if there was such a thing.

Serial number sticker looks identical, and numbers aren't far off. The revision number and p/n are identical, even the vendor ID is the same. The model sticker is a little different, though.

Neat! I believe there was a "switch point" where white replaced blue, just one of the many changes in the SKCM story that the nice folks here have documented. Hopefully I can help with info from the keyboards I have here.

As far as I know, the only Northgate model that was available at first was the 102. Very early versions had a black plate, but that changed to silver (bare metal) while the blue Alps switches were still being used. Gold label on the case, fixed location of the control key (next to "A"), built-in cord, XT/AT slide switch, no dipswitches, single board inside mounted to the upper case. I'm calling those "Generation 1" here, for lack of an official designation.

Here's another example that would narrow down the change even further, to about a three week period, assuming there was a "switch point" from blue to white:

https://imgur.com/gallery/2otbj

This thing was produced 2 days earlier than your blue alps omnikey, but has white alps. So, it looks like there was a gradual switch transition in early May 1989.

[Alpinist]

Built the first of my Alps64 boards: AEK60.

Alps64 PCB, SKCM Orange Alps (stripped, ultrasonic cleaned and dry-lubed; 70cN springs, 85cN space), stainless steel AEK plate, high profile alu case w/ stainless weight and sound dampening, AEK caps (ultrasonic cleaned) and stabs.



Build album: https://imgur.com/a/9wR77

It types sooo nice

That is a wonderful board. Congratulations!
If you ever decide to de-yellow the spacebar so it matches the rest of the keys you could use something like this:
https://www.superdrug.com/B-Blonde/Jero ... er/p/42293

Apply uniformly, seal the spacebar on a zip bag and put it under the sun for 2-6 hours depending on the how strong the sun is. With a strong sun I'd say about 3 hours considering your current colour, not too yellow. Rotate the piece a bit every hour or so or just keep it stacionary with some foil around the piece so the reflected sun hits the parts in shade.

Retr0brighting full cases is a bit of a mixed bag as hardly (if ever) quite looks like the original but a single spacebar is quite fool-proof and can look very very good. Perhaps I'm teaching you how to suck eggs though, after seeing all the great work you did already on the board though. Congratulations again!

EDIT: The spacebar will start yellowing again afterwards, but the de-yellowing process is so simple that you can repeat it every 2-4 years depending on how exposed the board is to UV light, which is what will yellow it for the most part.

[rich1051414]

Built the first of my Alps64 boards: AEK60.

Alps64 PCB, SKCM Orange Alps (stripped, ultrasonic cleaned and dry-lubed; 70cN springs, 85cN space), stainless steel AEK plate, high profile alu case w/ stainless weight and sound dampening, AEK caps (ultrasonic cleaned) and stabs.



Build album: https://imgur.com/a/9wR77

It types sooo nice

That is a wonderful board. Congratulations!
If you ever decide to de-yellow the spacebar so it matches the rest of the keys you could use something like this:
https://www.superdrug.com/B-Blonde/Jero ... er/p/42293

Apply uniformly, seal the spacebar on a zip bag and put it under the sun for 2-6 hours depending on the how strong the sun is. With a strong sun I'd say about 3 hours considering your current colour, not too yellow. Rotate the piece a bit every hour or so or just keep it stacionary with some foil around the piece so the reflected sun hits the parts in shade.

Retr0brighting full cases is a bit of a mixed bag as hardly (if ever) quite looks like the original but a single spacebar is quite fool-proof and can look very very good. Perhaps I'm teaching you how to suck eggs though, after seeing all the great work you did already on the board though. Congratulations again!

EDIT: The spacebar will start yellowing again afterwards, but the de-yellowing process is so simple that you can repeat it every 2-4 years depending on how exposed the board is to UV light, which is what will yellow it for the most part.

The sun doesn't matter. Heat is what activate peroxide, not UV radiation. In fact, I think using the sun may in fact speed up the yellowing process. I would avoid sunlight, the sun is the enemy.