Great/Interesting Finds

[depletedvespene]

Someone buy this before I do

https://www.ebay.com/itm/253254760732/

This is going to be very, very interesting.

When it reached 355 USD, I thought it would stay there for several days. Now it's at 480. This has all the markings of a legendary bidding war.

[depletedvespene]

Grab it while you can

Got it Now all thats left is to do an eventual bolt mod

Congratulations. Let's hope the battleship is in full working order (I got stuck with some duds before scoring a couple really good units).

[depletedvespene]

Dirt protects the plastic .

Outer dirt is irrelevant. I'd rather see the innards of that unit before considering bidding on it. Also, a seller with a score of 1 does not inspire much trust.

[depletedvespene]

Italian Layout Model M:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/IBM-keyboard-Mo ... SwAHBZ~2te

I'd get that one ONLY for the "Fine" keycap, to then stick into a regular US layout.

Model F:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Vintage-IBM-Mod ... SwevdaBx31

Badgeless and painted black (never mind the hideous national layout ). Good luck to whoever the seller might be!

Italian Olivetti with blue lettering:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tastiera-Vintag ... Swm3paCeQi

We had Olivetti PCs on our lab when I was in university, and the keyboards were very much like that. Those computers were in such a bad shape, I called them the "living dead computers". The keyboards were a disaster as well.

I would buy this one only to do a "memory cleansing" ritual.

[Myoth]

never mind the hideous national layout

u wot m8 ?

I took this offense very personally !

[depletedvespene]

never mind the hideous national layout

u wot m8 ?

I took this offense very personally !

French-hating aside (I'm Spanish, so I've got proper reasons for it, as opposed to 'muricans), you have to concede that the French national layout... leaves a lot to be desired.

[andrewjoy]

Why anyone would want to use anything other than unix layout or failing that ansi is beyond me . I prefer the @ to be in the ISO location but other than that , unix or ansi all the way.

[hansichen]

Pretty cheap SSK :O

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Model-M-Ke ... fresh=true

There is one guy on geekhack selling SSKs for 150$ shipped, 175$ for white label ones iirc. And they are tested. So you may wanna have a look at the sale thread in the classifieds section

[Ir0n]

Pretty cheap SSK :O

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Model-M-Ke ... fresh=true

There is one guy on geekhack selling SSKs for 150$ shipped, 175$ for white label ones iirc. And they are tested. So you may wanna have a look at the sale thread in the classifieds section

I'm already in that buy for a blue one and I would have got this one if I wasn't Lol
That's still a good price for an SSK plus no waiting list

You know a few months ago I was looking for one like crazy now I'm seeing them every where now that I have one on lock down...funny how that works >_>

[fohat]

You know a few months ago I was looking for one like crazy now I'm seeing them every where now

Remember 2-3 years ago when prices spiked so that even shabby ones were going for $250-$300?

[seebart]

That's still a good price for an SSK plus no waiting list...

True, does he still have some?

Remember 2-3 years ago when prices spiked so that even shabby ones were going for $250-$300?

Yeah I remember although I got lucky with mine, Madhias price was fair.

[Ir0n]

That's still a good price for an SSK plus no waiting list...

True, does he still have some?

I think he has a lot left actually, but most of them don't have cables. (at least I think)
He had 80 of them and I'm counting 40 people on the list.

You know a few months ago I was looking for one like crazy now I'm seeing them every where now

Remember 2-3 years ago when prices spiked so that even shabby ones were going for $250-$300?

Seems like ATs are also starting to settle down in price.. I've seen 2 this week sell for under 100 Lol

[depletedvespene]

That's still a good price for an SSK plus no waiting list...

True, does he still have some?

I think he has a lot left actually, but most of them don't have cables. (at least I think)
He had 80 of them and I'm counting 40 people on the list.

You know a few months ago I was looking for one like crazy now I'm seeing them every where now

Remember 2-3 years ago when prices spiked so that even shabby ones were going for $250-$300?

Seems like ATs are also starting to settle down in price.. I've seen 2 this week sell for under 100 Lol

Good, 'cause I want an F AT for a decent price. Anything upwards of 250 is just too much for anything that won't be a daily driver.

[Alpinist]

I was planing to go for it since yesterday but if you are really interested I could step down.

I'm fairly new to Topre. I just got a Leopold and I like it quite a bit so I'd like to explore HKKB (at a reasonable price). But then again, I just got a Topre board so it feels a bit like hoarding if another member wants to try it as well...

There is also a reasonable priced set of keycaps in eBay uk (with a few non-iso swapped from a JP layout) if the new owner wants to have some of the keycaps replaced. I was planing to go for both.

Go for it mate , i just ordered a NIB 6112884 pingmaster so i should not spend any more on keyboards for a bit .

Tx! I will keep an eye on it now that I don't have the option of Buy It Now and we will take it from there.
TBH I shouldn't go for it as I bought 5 keyboards this month. This is reaching pathological levels now!

[Myoth]

never mind the hideous national layout

u wot m8 ?

I took this offense very personally !

French-hating aside (I'm Spanish, so I've got proper reasons for it, as opposed to 'muricans), you have to concede that the French national layout... leaves a lot to be desired.

It's probably because you aren't french, I can use an ISO-UK keyboard for when I talk in english.

But there is absolutely no way I can use it everyday, there is just some things I need... like this éàêç etc.. I'm mot saying it's better that explains a lets why I'm using it instead of a ISO-UK keyboard.

Now onto why it's good :

-GOOD HOME ROW

that's it

Why is it bad ?

-because you're all not french so 75% of the keys don't mean a thing to you.. so they're useless

now stop bullying ISO-FR pls, I cri time

[seebart]

now stop bullying ISO-FR pls, I cri time

Spoiler:

Apple_M0110_top_view.jpg (998.27 KiB) Viewed 6324 times

[depletedvespene]

Why is it bad ?
………
now stop bullying ISO-FR pls, I cri time

All trash-talking aside, I dislike the "French (France)" national layout for several serious reasons (which would hold even if I were French). Some of them:

• The "A" in AZERTY strikes me as a change that was done capriciously.
• Several symbols are moved about within the keyboard for reasons that do not seem to be frequency of usage.
• I... can... live with the swapping of the numbers (ok, not, but let's pretend I do), but the characters above (below) seem to have been assigned randomly. Why not put à above A and é and è above E? (etc.)
• Why have dead keys for ^ and ̈ but not acute and grave accents? It IS wasteful.
• Comma is shifted to the left; period is shifted upwards. Again, with no apparent reason for it. How many non-AZERTY layouts do something like that with the two most common typographical symbols?
• Still no æ and œ?

I could go on, but this already derails this particular thread a bit too much. We should start new ones discussing the pros and cons of different national and custom layouts.

[seebart]

1zdik8.jpg (67.79 KiB) Viewed 6471 times

[Myoth]

Spoiler:

Apple_M0110_top_view.jpg

sorry but that's gorgeous !! is it yours ??

The "A" in AZERTY strikes me as a change that was done capriciously.

Honestly I have no idea why the A is there, but if it's here it certainly for a reason... though yeah could just be patriotism. "We NEED something different from the other peeps !!"

Several symbols are moved about within the keyboard for reasons that do not seem to be frequency of usage.

This is quite true for some of them, in exmeple the @ is really not in a convenient place; but the others are quite nicely placed I mean maybe () should have been together ? but the placement under them of [] does make sense ... I also agree that some are really useless (who needs µ ? ¤ ?) that wasn't your point but I can see it being in the same category.

I... can... live with the swapping of the numbers (ok, not, but let's pretend I do), but the characters above (below) seem to have been assigned randomly. Why not put à above A and é and è above E? (etc.)

No, they aren't for exemple ' is at theright place for most of the sentence that use it, "j'ai" "j'en", it's close to the letters that are used with it... the other aren't really used so I wouldn't know, but from my 16 years of using azerty I don't think they should be anywhere else (want another exemple ? - is nicely placed for most of the combos you use it with : m'as-tu vu ? peut-être ... )

Why have dead keys for ^ and ̈ but not acute and grave accents? It IS wasteful.

because most accented keys are already on the keyboard itself. (We have the grave accent though, on the 7)

Comma is shifted to the left; period is shifted upwards. Again, with no apparent reason for it. How many non-AZERTY layouts do something like that with the two most common typographical symbols?

I actually don't know, but by knowing french, I can say that we don't use period a lot, we prefer to use commas much more, or ... ";" which is a period, but not really ... which is what we like to use. (That's also why I mostly never use the Left Shift, because I actually don't need it (I've been trying to make a layout with FN there for quite a long time now))

Still no æ and œ?

we never use ae, but yeah, I'll give you that, not having a oe is really dumb, because a word as common as egg needs it :/

In the end, it's weird and sometimes useless, it may be looking wrong, it may be the very worse layout ever, but I like it, and I'll always show this (and the fact that we have a full home row) to convince people that AZERTY is not as bad as people say it to be



French Cherry Doubleshots for the win ! look at that cute not very happy face

[Gnohio]

Grab it while you can

Got it Now all thats left is to do an eventual bolt mod

Congratulations. Let's hope the battleship is in full working order (I got stuck with some duds before scoring a couple really good units).

Even if it isnt I still wont be too mad because I basically bought the converter for it plus >$10 for shipping with the price it went for.

[Gnohio]

Someone buy this before I do

https://www.ebay.com/itm/253254760732/

This is going to be very, very interesting.

When it reached 355 USD, I thought it would stay there for several days. Now it's at 480. This has all the markings of a legendary bidding war.

Now its at $630

[seebart]

Now its at $630

Not suprised.

sorry but that's gorgeous !! is it yours ??

Oui.

Here are some more pics:

wiki/Apple_M0110

[mecano]

I searched BOSCH System 5 but couldn't find anything vintage just modern surveillance system units or so it seems.

Wow does the guy meant System V?

[mecano]

Honestly I have no idea why the A is there, but if it's here it certainly for a reason... though yeah could just be patriotism. "We NEED something different from the other peeps !!"

Unknown historical reasons, I bet they just wanted all vowels on same row, I even think they found it smart like in the typical french way "hey look we improved your layout, we fixed it, we put all vowels on the same row".

(who needs µ ? ¤ ?)

I do use the micron sign.

Why have dead keys for ^ and ̈ but not acute and grave accents? It IS wasteful.

because most accented keys are already on the keyboard itself. (We have the grave accent though, on the 7)

Ahaha what a flawed design, now you are getting it

but by knowing french, I can say that we don't use period a lot, we prefer to use commas much more, or ... ";" which is a period, but not really ... which is what we like to use.

Stop lying. Unless you are Flaubert, generations of us have been taught to make short sentences i.e. use period a lot.
It is even taught that way in journalism schools. I personally tend to use more the semicolon (;) over the colon (:) though.

In the end, it's weird and sometimes useless, it may be looking wrong, it may be the very worse layout ever, but I like it

Sounds like you are talking of my wife You know her?

[Slom]

I searched BOSCH System 5 but couldn't find anything vintage just modern surveillance system units or so it seems.

Wow does the guy meant System V?

Stand back a let me use me google skills ...

https://www.exapro.com/waldrich-coburg- ... p60825140/

Pic 10


Pic 11

[mecano]

Now these are skills! Thanks Slom
I thought the CNC in the add referred to the keyboard plate

[Myoth]

Honestly I have no idea why the A is there, but if it's here it certainly for a reason... though yeah could just be patriotism. "We NEED something different from the other peeps !!"

Unknown historical reasons, I bet they just wanted all vowels on same row, I even think they found it smart like in the typical french way "hey look we improved your layout, we fixed it, we put all vowels on the same row".

(who needs µ ? ¤ ?)

I do use the micron sign.

Why have dead keys for ^ and ̈ but not acute and grave accents? It IS wasteful.

because most accented keys are already on the keyboard itself. (We have the grave accent though, on the 7)

Ahaha what a flawed design, now you are getting it

but by knowing french, I can say that we don't use period a lot, we prefer to use commas much more, or ... ";" which is a period, but not really ... which is what we like to use.

Stop lying. Unless you are Flaubert, generations of us have been taught to make short sentences i.e. use period a lot.
It is even taught that way in journalism schools. I personally tend to use more the semicolon (;) over the colon (:) though.

In the end, it's weird and sometimes useless, it may be looking wrong, it may be the very worse layout ever, but I like it

Sounds like you are talking of my wife You know her?

It's not a flawed design to think about everything that can exist. want a ý ? we got you covered.

Do not say that I'm lying. You use micron ? good for you. I use semi colon ? good for me. I'm sure there is much more people who use semi colon than micron.

We don't the period a lot, have you ever talked with Americans ? they use the period at the end of almost EVERY sentence, it really disturbs me. We never do, I could show you months and months of conversations without a single period "but then you'd contradict yourself because you said you had the time and as I can see there is only few words in every text" yeah because it doesn't feel good to type on a mobile phone.

[mecano]

It's not a flawed design to think about everything that can exist. want a ý ? we got you covered.

Do not say that I'm lying. You use micron ? good for you. I use semi colon ? good for me. I'm sure there is much more people who use semi colon than micron.

We don't the period a lot, have you ever talked with Americans ? they use the period at the end of almost EVERY sentence, it really disturbs me. We never do, I could show you months and months of conversations without a single period "but then you'd contradict yourself because you said you had the time and as I can see there is only few words in every text" yeah because it doesn't feel good to type on a mobile phone.

You were lying about the period because the azerty layout made you lie about it.
To quote Burroughs : "The junk merchant doesn't sell his product to the consumer, he sells the consumer to his product. He does not improve and simplify his merchandise. He degrades and simplifies the client."
See how evil this layout is?

[kbdfr]

[…]

• The "A" in AZERTY strikes me as a change that was done capriciously.
• Several symbols are moved about within the keyboard for reasons that do not seem to be frequency of usage.
• I... can... live with the swapping of the numbers (ok, not, but let's pretend I do), but the characters above (below) seem to have been assigned randomly. Why not put à above A and é and è above E? (etc.)
• Why have dead keys for ^ and ̈ but not acute and grave accents? It IS wasteful.
• Comma is shifted to the left; period is shifted upwards. Again, with no apparent reason for it. How many non-AZERTY layouts do something like that with the two most common typographical symbols?
• Still no æ and œ?

[…]

It's quite interesting to see the terminology you use. Your refer to things in AZERTY differing from what you are used to as "changes", "swapping", "shifted". To AZERTY users though, they are nothing of that, they are of course just where they are.

• The numbers being uppercase on the number row is due to the fact that in French, é, è, ç and à are full-fledged characters so common that having to use a dead key (i.e. double strike) every time you need them would be an awful lost of time (or would you want to type ~ and then n whenever you need ñ?). In that they differ from those characters with a circonflexe (^) or a tréma (¨). And as former keyboards always had a number pad, having extra numbers on the "number row" at all was in fact completely superfluous.
• Now for the period ("full stop") being uppercase: as you end a sentence with a full stop and start the next sentence with an uppercase character, it seems logical that both would be uppercase. Of course it doesn't simplify typing when the initial capital of the sentence happens to be a character on the left side of the keyboard, but still it is perfectly logical (something the French consider an essential virtue, by the way).
• I wonder you do not criticize the colon (:) being uppercase on most keyboards instead of lowercase like in the AZERTY keyboard. After all, as far as I am aware, only in German a colon is followed by an uppercase character (and only when it introduces a full phrase, i.e. a sentence containing a verb), but not in English and certainly not in French, where typography commands a lowercase character after a colon - so it not being uppercase is the best solution.
• You forgot the (in my eyes) major flaw of the AZERTY keyboard: the ù cap. There is only one word in French with this character: où (=where). What a waste…

A few months ago, the French government started a public consultation (through the standards agency Afnor) aimed at revamping the French keyboard. I am not aware of any such initiative in any other country using a specific keyboard, though. All those layouts must be perfect

By the way, being in Chile you will proably be familiar with the Spanish (Latin America) keyboard. What about the weird placement of the characters ¿ and ? and ¡ and ! (which in Spanish mark the beginning and the end of an interrogative/exclamatory sentence)?
And what about the inconstencies of their placement between the Spanish (Latin America) and the Spanish (Spain) keyboards?

Spanish keyboard, Spain and Latin America.png (26.56 KiB) Viewed 6683 times

[depletedvespene]

It's quite interesting to see the terminology you use. Your refer to things in AZERTY differing from what you are used to as "changes", "swapping", "shifted". To AZERTY users though, they are nothing of that, they are of course just where they are.

Of course, but they have to be learned at some point, and it's damn easier to learn if there's a logic to the characters' placement. I... still don't see the logic in the placement of certain characters (taking aside the factor of whether it was a good idea or not to assign them as a base character in the first place).

The numbers being uppercase on the number row is due to the fact that in French, é, è, ç and à are full-fledged characters so common that having to use a dead key (i.e. double strike) every time you need them would be an awful lost of time (or would you want to type ~ and then n whenever you need ñ?). In that they differ from those characters with a circonflexe (^) or a tréma (¨). And as former keyboards always had a number pad, having extra numbers on the "number row" at all was in fact completely superfluous.

IIRC, the French layout comes from old typewriters, where there was no numpad in the first place.

Now for the period ("full stop") being uppercase: as you end a sentence with a full stop and start the next sentence with an uppercase character, it seems logical that both would be uppercase. Of course it doesn't simplify typing when the initial capital of the sentence happens to be a character on the left side of the keyboard, but still it is perfectly logical (something the French consider an essential virtue, by the way).

What about the space between the full stop and the first letter of the next sentence?

I wonder you do not criticize the colon (:) being uppercase on most keyboards instead of lowercase like in the AZERTY keyboard.

Oh, if we had two more rows of keys we could get many more characters in the base layer. At some point, compromises must be made, or not?

You forgot the (in my eyes) major flaw of the AZERTY keyboard: the ù cap. There is only one word in French with this character: où (=where). What a waste…

I did say I was listing some.

A few months ago, the French government started a public consultation (through the standards agency Afnor) aimed at revamping the French keyboard. I am not aware of any such initiative in any other country using a specific keyboard, though. All those layouts must be perfect

Now THAT is an interesting development.

By the way, being in Chile you will proably be familiar with the Spanish (Latin America) keyboard. What about the weird placement of the characters ¿ and ? and ¡ and ! (which in Spanish mark the beginning and the end of an interrogative/exclamatory sentence)?
And what about the inconstencies of their placement between the Spanish (Latin America) and the Spanish (Spain) keyboards?

Spanish keyboard, Spain and Latin America.png

Oh, I've criticized them many, many times. The "Spanish (Spain)" layout has several other disadvantages that are particularly nasty for programmers. The "Spanish (Latin America)" layout is better in most regards, but has the unbelievable oversight of having ignored the Ç character. And both lack «, », — and other typographical symbols that are heavily used in Spanish.

I take you're not familiar with the custom layouts I've designed to address these shortcomings?