Alps Appreciation

[Polecat]

Beautiful, ty.

Seems I only need dip switch 5 toggled, for the standard IBM layout. Also dip switch 6 to swap the * and / keys that are in the windows keys location.

I guess I could use a soarer's converter to convert those to windows key or whatever.

Also, there are a LOT of unpopulated switches in this board, which would require modifications to the shell to populate. I assume populating the row where the function keys would be would just be duplicates of the F keys, since the 102 can't have the SF keys programmed?

I haven't personally played with reprogramming a Northgate. The Omnikey Ultra versions were the ones with the extra SF keys. For those keys to work independently of the regular F keys they would have to generate different scan codes. The tables in the manuals I linked should give details on that. But that means those positions won't just be wired in parallel with the F keys. Whether the 102 has the same ROM table as the Ultra would determine which scan codes (if any) would be generated with the unused switch positions populated. The easiest way to test for that would be to solder a switch into an unused position (PC board removed from case) and check for a scan code from that switch with a utility program.

Some of the Northgates have a separate EPROM (I think...) that contains the scan code table; others may have it built into the processor chip. If the unpopulated positions don't generate scan codes you could theoretically copy an Ultra EPROM or swap an Ultra controller chip to make use of the extra positions. But again I haven't actually done that.

[rich1051414]

I'll update when I figure that out. I have to wait for my male-to-male ps/2 connector to arrive before I can actually plug it into anything.

From what I understand, the SF keys just spit out F keys by default, and I have no reason to believe it wouldn't as well on the 102, but I will find out soon enough. The plate is shared between the 102 and ultra, as is the PCB, with only the eeprom being different. It is of course totally possible it completely ignores the unpopulated switches though.

I do plan on soldering in a switch to make sure. Having duplicates of the F keys does sound kind of nice to me, as I wouldn't have to change any muscle memory.

[Scottex]

What are my options if I'm looking for a 7u spacebar?
Are there pbt ones?

[mike52787]

What are my options if I'm looking for a 7u spacebar?
Are there pbt ones?

stem swapping cherry or space invader bars is pretty much your only way to go

[rich1051414]

I'll update when I figure that out. I have to wait for my male-to-male ps/2 connector to arrive before I can actually plug it into anything.

From what I understand, the SF keys just spit out F keys by default, and I have no reason to believe it wouldn't as well on the 102, but I will find out soon enough. The plate is shared between the 102 and ultra, as is the PCB, with only the eeprom being different. It is of course totally possible it completely ignores the unpopulated switches though.

I do plan on soldering in a switch to make sure. Having duplicates of the F keys does sound kind of nice to me, as I wouldn't have to change any muscle memory.

Ok, so SF1, Sf2, SF6, SF7, SF9, and SF12 work, and they all press shift+F#, the rest of the keys don't send any keycodes to the OS.

[alh84001]

I finally put this together - (Almost) Ultimate Alps Tester



I still have to add a controller to it, so for now it's just for show - SKCL Heavy Grey, SKCL Heavy Green, SKCL Lock Brown, SKCL Double Action (I am about to get last one donated). Many, many, maaaaany thanks to those who already donated the switches - SKCL Grey, SKCM Green Bamboo, SKCL Striped Amber - you two know who you are

Spoiler:

From left to right and top to bottom, switches are

Code: Select all

SKCL Cream | SKCL Grey | SKCL Amber | SKCL Grey LED *

SKCL Striped Amber | SKCL Green | SKCL Yellow | SKCL Brown | SKCL Green LED ** | Matias Linear

SKCM Neon Green Bamboo | SKCM Salmon | SKCM Black Bamboo | SKCM Cream Undamped | SKCM White Damped | Matias Quiet Click

SKCM Neon Green Pine | SKCM Orange | SKCM Black Pine | SKCM Brown | SKCM Cream Damped | Matias Click

SKCM Amber | SKCM Blue | SKCM White | SKCM Cream Undamped *** | SKCM Red **** | SKCL Red *****

SKCM Heavy Blue | SKCM Heavy Cream | SKCL Lock Dark Grey | SKCL Lock Cream

* This one is the same as SKCL Grey, except the LED
** This one is actually heavier than LED-less SKCL Green (makes me wonder if SKCL Yellow LED is heavier than non-LED)
*** This is a switch from sharp typewriter, and it's a tiny bit heavier than the other one (from NeXT)
**** This is a mutt, made from SKCL Green bottom, switchplate and spring, SKCM Blue top tactile leaf and Matias Linear slider
***** This is a mutt, made from SKCM Blue bottom, switchplate and spring, SKCL Green top and Matias Linear slider

[Elrick]

I finally put this together - (Almost) Ultimate Alps Tester

In your own opinion here, is Matias switches even in contention when comparing them to all those ALPs switches made decades ago?

[rich1051414]

I finally put this together - (Almost) Ultimate Alps Tester

In your own opinion here, is Matias switches even in contention when comparing them to all those ALPs switches made decades ago?

The main difference I noticed with matias switches is the switch plate design on the matias switch can actually be felt. This adds two 'bumps' which feels clunky in comparison to old alps.

[alh84001]

Yep. I would say there is no comparison to first gen SKCM in good condition.

[Chyros]

I would second that. Matias are very good for modern switches, but they pale in comparison to vintage material.

[alienman82]

removed.

[rich1051414]

is this where I come to promote cherry ?

Funny, but cherry isn't all that bad. They are delicate and aren't prone to binding, both of these are good things. However, if talking about tactile feel and sound, it isn't even a fair contest.

[seebart]

Its just PS/2, like a Model M, no need.

I managed to score a IBM P70, I hope it's PS/2 like you say Mattr567, I'll try out a PS/2 cable tomorrow I'm pretty sure I have one in my cablebox. Anything I need to watch out for when opening the case? APS feels nice indeed.

IMG_20180106_153341.jpg (938.33 KiB) Viewed 6277 times

[codemonkeymike]

I'm curious to know what you think about plate springs, I have tried out one of the IBM laptops with plate springs and thought it was too odd feeling to use. It has the same issue that all plate springs seem to have which is the up stroke is louder and snappier then the down stroke.

[seebart]

I'm curious to know what you think about plate springs, I have tried out one of the IBM laptops with plate springs and thought it was too odd feeling to use. It has the same issue that all plate springs seem to have which is the up stroke is louder and snappier then the down stroke.

It reminds me of OKI Gourd Spring in some ways although that is technically different. You can get all the techncial jargon from our wiki page but I would simplify and say it's a switch that engages me into "light typing" vs. "hammering" and bottoming out due to its stacked spring design which makes switch travel quite smooth combined sensitive feedback. You either like it or you don't, I've heard a few people say it does not give them enough feedback or even that it feels "mushy" which is not the case really. Regadless it's a brilliant switch design, too bad Alps APS is not as common as Alps SKCM.

wiki/Alps_SKCP_series

[Mattr567]

I'm curious to know what you think about plate springs, I have tried out one of the IBM laptops with plate springs and thought it was too odd feeling to use. It has the same issue that all plate springs seem to have which is the up stroke is louder and snappier then the down stroke.

It reminds me of OKI Gourd Spring in some ways although that is technically different. You can get all the techncial jargon from our wiki page but I would simplify and say it's a switch that engages me into "light typing" vs. "hammering" and bottoming out due to its stacked spring design which makes switch travel quite smooth combined sensitive feedback. You either like it or you don't, I've heard a few people say it does not give them enough feedback or even that it feels "mushy" which is not the case really. Regadless it's a brilliant switch design, too bad Alps APS is not as common as Alps SKCM.

wiki/Alps_SKCP_series

I think some people think its mushy b/c of varying conditions, typical Alps I got mine from Hypersphere on ebay and it had some dust in the switches, which made them bindy and scratchy. Rather than trying to open the switches I used an air can, flipped it upside down, and sprayed the end directly into the slider hole, freezing the inside of the switch. This cleaned the switch without having to open it

As a result, basically all the binding and scratchiness went away and what was left (a little binding on some keys) went away with use. Unlike SKCL/SKCM I think APS can be restored to their proper state with much greater success.

[consideringquiet]

I'm curious to know what you think about plate springs, I have tried out one of the IBM laptops with plate springs and thought it was too odd feeling to use. It has the same issue that all plate springs seem to have which is the up stroke is louder and snappier then the down stroke.

Which IBM Laptop boards have the Alps Plate springs? Just the IBM P70 right? Its on my New Years resolution list to get my hands on a board with those haha!

[seebart]

I think some people think its mushy b/c of varying conditions, typical Alps I got mine from Hypersphere on ebay and it had some dust in the switches, which made them bindy and scratchy. Rather than trying to open the switches I used an air can, flipped it upside down, and sprayed the end directly into the slider hole, freezing the inside of the switch. This cleaned the switch without having to open it

As a result, basically all the binding and scratchiness went away and what was left (a little binding on some keys) went away with use. Unlike SKCL/SKCM I think APS can be restored to their proper state with much greater success.

Right, so far I think I got lucky with mine, no binding and no mushyness whatsoever. But opening that case...

I'm curious to know what you think about plate springs, I have tried out one of the IBM laptops with plate springs and thought it was too odd feeling to use. It has the same issue that all plate springs seem to have which is the up stroke is louder and snappier then the down stroke.

Which IBM Laptop boards have the Alps Plate springs? Just the IBM P70 right? Its on my New Years resolution list to get my hands on a board with those haha!

As far as we know these keyboards but there may be others:

wiki/Alps_SKCP_series

Canon AP500-II typewriter[3]
Canon AP 560 typewriter[2]
IBM 5576-001 Keyboard
IBM 5576-002
IBM PS/55 5545T keyboard[4]
IBM P70/P75 keyboard[5]

I just now saw we do have some good pictures of the whole machine:

photos-f62/ibm-p75-portable-computer-t7491.html

[consideringquiet]

I'm curious to know what you think about plate springs, I have tried out one of the IBM laptops with plate springs and thought it was too odd feeling to use. It has the same issue that all plate springs seem to have which is the up stroke is louder and snappier then the down stroke.

It reminds me of OKI Gourd Spring in some ways although that is technically different. You can get all the techncial jargon from our wiki page but I would simplify and say it's a switch that engages me into "light typing" vs. "hammering" and bottoming out due to its stacked spring design which makes switch travel quite smooth combined sensitive feedback. You either like it or you don't, I've heard a few people say it does not give them enough feedback or even that it feels "mushy" which is not the case really. Regadless it's a brilliant switch design, too bad Alps APS is not as common as Alps SKCM.

wiki/Alps_SKCP_series

I think some people think its mushy b/c of varying conditions, typical Alps I got mine from Hypersphere on ebay and it had some dust in the switches, which made them bindy and scratchy. Rather than trying to open the switches I used an air can, flipped it upside down, and sprayed the end directly into the slider hole, freezing the inside of the switch. This cleaned the switch without having to open it

As a result, basically all the binding and scratchiness went away and what was left (a little binding on some keys) went away with use. Unlike SKCL/SKCM I think APS can be restored to their proper state with much greater success.

Is Hypersphere still selling anything on ebay, perchance?

[seebart]

Is Hypersphere still selling anything on ebay, perchance?

I have no idea. He has not been around DT for a while now.

[codemonkeymike]

Is Hypersphere still selling anything on ebay, perchance?

I have no idea. He has not been around DT for a while now.

I was about to say the same but I checked his account and it said he was active today. He just lurks lately.

[seebart]

Is Hypersphere still selling anything on ebay, perchance?

I have no idea. He has not been around DT for a while now.

I was about to say the same but I checked his account and it said he was active today. He just lurks lately.

Oh, but there's no reason for him to lurk. But it's a free world, or should I say a free internet.

[consideringquiet]

I have no idea. He has not been around DT for a while now.

I was about to say the same but I checked his account and it said he was active today. He just lurks lately.

Oh, but there's no reason for him to lurk. But it's a free world, or should I say a free internet.

Not for long in the US

But I digress

[seebart]

Not for long in the US

Yeah I know what you mean.

[derzemel]

There is an IC on GH for Cherry-ALPS sliders. It seems that they will replace the ALPS slider with a Cherry compatible one.

Here is the link to the IC

Sadly, I know too little about ALPS to be able to give a good opinion.
It could be a very good idea though, if they are made well, but it can also fail if they are scratchy.

Also, this is the design of the slider:

[BlindAssassin111]

There is an IC on GH for Cherry-ALPS sliders. It seems that they will replace the ALPS slider with a Cherry compatible one.

Here is the link to the IC

Sadly, I know too little about ALPS to be able to give a good opinion.
It could be a very good idea though, if they are made well, but it can also fail if they are scratchy.

Also, this is the design of the slider:

Here is the IC here on deskthority and inside is the link to the original geekhack thread.
group-buys-f50/nexus-slider-alps-slider ... 18042.html

I just wanted to say that I am the designer and the one running the IC on Geekhack (just found out that I had an account here that I haven't used in almost 5 years...)

Currently working out the quotes and making sure the surface finish of the tooling will be smooth enough that the sliders will be unaffected and retain the alps smoothness we all love.

About to post an update to the IC as I have just received my 3rd quote and the price is much better than I have had so far by quite a large amount.

Also I have 10 prototype sliders being made right now and they should be here by the end of the week, funds donated by reececonrad over on geekhack. I will then be uploading a video trying to show any sound difference and describe the feel as well. A member on geekhack, sncbraxsc2, is sending me keycaps of every profile he could find in his collection in order to make sure that they will clear the alps housing. So DCS, DSA, SA, Cherry, thin OEM, G20, and EDRUG will be tested.

Currently we have interest for about 8000 sliders, but would love to get over 10,000 if people from over here join in as well.

[Chyros]

Cherry stems do not fit through an Alps switch housing. How will this design get around this?

[seebart]

Cherry stems do not fit through an Alps switch housing. How will this design get around this?

tumblr_m162jfE3dT1r1c6jgo2_500.jpg (25.86 KiB) Viewed 6095 times

[BlindAssassin111]

Cherry stems do not fit through an Alps switch housing. How will this design get around this?

As I stated in the Interest check threads on both geekhack and here, Sadly you have to file them down slightly. Cherry stems do actually fit through the opening on an alps switch, they just are almost the exact size so it is a tight fit. I never stated this was an all encompassing fix for everything, and no information was withheld regarding this.

I could get a mold made for the alps top housing and sell a modified version of that, but since the matias top is different I would either have to make a new one for them or force them to file the opening ever so slightly.

Some are going to be willing to file, some wont be. I can look at doing it if people really do want it. I would probably have similar pricing to the stems but probably a little more due to volume of the part and complexity on the inside.

I will open another form to see if people would want to file or a new top housing, if I get enough interest, has to be at least 7500 quantity for me to even consider doing it as cost is much to high at lower volumes.

I am also happy to have Chyros even talk to me at the moment...Love your videos and you humor.


Here is the new interest check to see if people want it. I will seriously add this if enough people want in on it. I have also edited the interest check on both sites to reflect this new information and interest check.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... sp=sf_link

[Chyros]

Cherry stems do not fit through an Alps switch housing. How will this design get around this?

As I stated in the Interest check threads on both geekhack and here, Sadly you have to file them down slightly. Cherry stems do actually fit through the opening on an alps switch, they just are almost the exact size so it is a tight fit. I never stated this was an all encompassing fix for everything, and no information was withheld regarding this.

I could get a mold made for the alps top housing and sell a modified version of that, but since the matias top is different I would either have to make a new one for them or force them to file the opening ever so slightly.

Some are going to be willing to file, some wont be. I can look at doing it if people really do want it. I would probably have similar pricing to the stems but probably a little more due to volume of the part and complexity on the inside.

Sorry, I just realised that post could be misconstrued as kinda hostile while in fact it really wasn't meant to be at all Oo . It was just out of interest really .
Keycap mount is traditionally a common complaint about Alps switches, so I'm sure people will find this interesting .