Alps Appreciation

[BlindAssassin111]

Cherry stems do not fit through an Alps switch housing. How will this design get around this?

As I stated in the Interest check threads on both geekhack and here, Sadly you have to file them down slightly. Cherry stems do actually fit through the opening on an alps switch, they just are almost the exact size so it is a tight fit. I never stated this was an all encompassing fix for everything, and no information was withheld regarding this.

I could get a mold made for the alps top housing and sell a modified version of that, but since the matias top is different I would either have to make a new one for them or force them to file the opening ever so slightly.

Some are going to be willing to file, some wont be. I can look at doing it if people really do want it. I would probably have similar pricing to the stems but probably a little more due to volume of the part and complexity on the inside.

Sorry, I just realised that post could be misconstrued as kinda hostile while in fact it really wasn't meant to be at all Oo . It was just out of interest really .
Keycap mount is traditionally a common complaint about Alps switches, so I'm sure people will find this interesting .

Yeah I think generally you are more blunt/to-the-point than some people, so it can come off as a tad hostile. I wasn't trying to be hostile in my response (but did interpret it as a tad aggressive as well so it may have caused that) but more answer so as to cover all bases that I in fact know about the issue and have a solution, but you weren't the first to point it out.

I just didn't know how far the initial interest check would go for the sliders and never expected so many people to jump on board. So I wasn't wanting to design the switch top housing initially, but if there is enough interest I will definitely do so. Just need to source some pine alps to model as I no longer own a pine board...and haven't been able to find one I can afford and is clean. Only have my at101w left for my alps boards. So I can model bamboo's but not sure if there is any tiny differences inside between the generations. Maybe at some point you could even review a board with these if someone was able to get you one. Would be cool, and nerve racking, to see what you think.

[Elrick]

I just didn't know how far the initial interest check would go for the sliders and never expected so many people to jump on board.

I would say it's a resounding success because of that fact you initiated all this furore with this style of switch. In my books that is ALWAYS a win.

Good to see the passions that certain people have and they can not subdue it, when it comes to their area of interest.

This is a public forum after all so do expect this type of interaction. This place breathes, walks and talks keyboards far more than any other forum online, this is why this place is known as Deskthority - The Final answer to everything concerning Keyboards .

[BlindAssassin111]

I just didn't know how far the initial interest check would go for the sliders and never expected so many people to jump on board.

I would say it's a resounding success because of that fact you initiated all this furore with this style of switch. In my books that is ALWAYS a win.

Good to see the passions that certain people have and they can not subdue it, when it comes to their area of interest.

This is a public forum after all so do expect this type of interaction. This place breathes, walks and talks keyboards far more than any other forum online, this is why this place is known as Deskthority - The Final answer to everything concerning Keyboards .

That is true, it is honestly still shocking how I have managed to spend almost all of my time the past few days just on this, replying to people, checking on how many people have joined, etc. I love that people have jumped on this and want it to succeed, I can't wait to fulfill orders and see what people think, even those they may not like it for some reason (they always exist). Plus I mean who doesn't want to put some nice custom caps on their alps so you get the best switch and cap combo ever?!?!

[Scarpia]

If the switch top housings are made available too (not filed but injection molded) and if they’ll fit SKCM Browns, I’ll take at least 90. As a side effect of replacing slider+top housing, this would actually revive scratchy Alps!

[Chyros]

That's a very good point. The housings are one of the worst causes of scratchiness in Alps switches.

[BillyBuerger]

You bet, anyone who has a NIB, Complicated White Alps Focus, then I'm your future customer without hesitation .

I just came across two Focus boards with complicated white Alps. A FK-2001 (no win-key) and a FK-2000 Plus. They appear to be new and untouched. Extremely clean and no yellowing at all. I don't have an AT/XT to PS/2 or USB adapter at the moment to test. I plan on using a teensy with Soarers firmware soon to verify. I found them on Goodwill's auction site and was hoping the one would have blue alps. I'm thinking I'll keep one around for fun but I could definitely part with one of them. Let me know if you are interested.

[Scarpia]

That's a very good point. The housings are one of the worst causes of scratchiness in Alps switches.

That's what I thought. Of course if the top housings are $0.45 apiece it might not be worth it for most switch types, but imagine what you could do with new top housings and a bag of scratchy SKCM Blues - or Browns

Speaking of these sliders, I checked the wiki and it seems that the sliders are identical across all the different SKCM/SKCL switches, with the switchplate/leaf assembly changing to produce different clicks and tactility. If so, that would be wonderful - it would mean that these new sliders could be used in any Alps SKCL/SKCM switch. But aren't there some Alps switches where the sliders are different? Like the damped ones, or older variants like SKCM Brown?

[codemonkeymike]

So, with Brown alps. I have basically new Brown alps but they seem to be more scratchy then any other alps switch in a basically new state. I feel like it has to do with how much force is being applied to the contacts from the stem as the curved contact pushes very hard into the stem. Can anyone else confirm or deny this? Not particularly relevant to the cherry mount stems for alps switches but it came to mind when Scarpia mentioned browns.

[seebart]

So, with Brown alps. I have basically new Brown alps but they seem to be more scratchy then any other alps switch in a basically new state.

Are you sure they are "basically new..."?

[BlindAssassin111]

That's a very good point. The housings are one of the worst causes of scratchiness in Alps switches.

That's what I thought. Of course if the top housings are $0.45 apiece it might not be worth it for most switch types, but imagine what you could do with new top housings and a bag of scratchy SKCM Blues - or Browns

Speaking of these sliders, I checked the wiki and it seems that the sliders are identical across all the different SKCM/SKCL switches, with the switchplate/leaf assembly changing to produce different clicks and tactility. If so, that would be wonderful - it would mean that these new sliders could be used in any Alps SKCL/SKCM switch. But aren't there some Alps switches where the sliders are different? Like the damped ones, or older variants like SKCM Brown?

So the damped sliders will be different in just the areas that have the dampers but besides that I don't believe there is any difference other than maybe tolerance. I won't be doing damped sliders at the moment as that requires a separate tool to make them, which means I need about 7,500-10,000 sliders worth of interest for just those.

[codemonkeymike]

So, with Brown alps. I have basically new Brown alps but they seem to be more scratchy then any other alps switch in a basically new state.

Are you sure they are "basically new..."?

Yep, it was a covered board in box, keys had no wear, the linear green alps on the board are deliciously smooth compared to what would be the least used keys (like numbers or Q/Z key). I also experimented with zapping a couple in the ultrasonic cleaner and it made zero difference (experiment 1 was just zapping the top housing and experiment 2 was zapping every part other then the switch plate). I should note that it probably was used but there was not a spec of dust on the plate or in the shell of the keyboard.

[Chyros]

That's a very good point. The housings are one of the worst causes of scratchiness in Alps switches.

That's what I thought. Of course if the top housings are $0.45 apiece it might not be worth it for most switch types, but imagine what you could do with new top housings and a bag of scratchy SKCM Blues - or Browns

Speaking of these sliders, I checked the wiki and it seems that the sliders are identical across all the different SKCM/SKCL switches, with the switchplate/leaf assembly changing to produce different clicks and tactility. If so, that would be wonderful - it would mean that these new sliders could be used in any Alps SKCL/SKCM switch. But aren't there some Alps switches where the sliders are different? Like the damped ones, or older variants like SKCM Brown?

Yes, SKCL Green for example, and off the top of my head SKCM Neon Green was different too, but I could be wrong about that one.

[BlindAssassin111]

Yes, SKCL Green for example, and off the top of my head SKCM Neon Green was different too, but I could be wrong about that one.

Hmm forgot about that cutout on the SKCL Green top housing, sadly that won't be included in my top housing as then no tactile or clicky alps would work. And that would mean no integrated lock lights on those keys would work either, as the new housing would be in the way...So either the LED would have to be desoldered, that switch would be left alone and use its original cap or sadly have to not do this on that board.

[Mattr567]

Ya know Matias should remake the SKCM Green leaf and make a new switch with it.

Drive down the insane meme prices maybe.

[seebart]

Ya know Matias should remake the SKCM Green leaf and make a new switch with it.

Drive down the insane meme prices maybe.

Very good idea!

[BlindAssassin111]

I may be crazy but I might look into how much that would cost...would be easier than the injection molding I think. Only need a spring to go off of for design but may look into soon.

[codemonkeymike]

So, I ultrasoniced the Alps Browns and like I said before felt exactly the same as before but I tried out a very small amount of dry teflon lube in the place were Alps would have put their dry lube on Blue sliders and turned out very well. Quite a bit snappier, a bit smoother and a little quieter. More testing needed. I can made a sound clip if anyone is interested between the two.

[Scarpia]

So, I ultrasoniced the Alps Browns and like I said before felt exactly the same as before but I tried out a very small amount of dry teflon lube in the place were Alps would have put their dry lube on Blue sliders and turned out very well. Quite a bit snappier, a bit smoother and a little quieter. More testing needed. I can made a sound clip if anyone is interested between the two.

Very interested in sound, feel, type of lube, method of application, etc. Details, please!

[mR_Slug]

Is there a specific reason it has to be made out of ABS? Urethane comes in all sorts of grades and hardness's. With ABS you need steel moulds, and they can get very expensive. With urethane you can use rubber moulds. FWIW, here is something I knocked up this evening:

Dscn1709.jpg (165.88 KiB) Viewed 5567 times

And the casing:

Dscn1725.jpg (318.98 KiB) Viewed 5567 times

I don't have access to a vacuum pump right now so there are a few voids, and this is just a proof of concept. For example the cherry mount isn't even on straight! Second the top of the outer casing is just rough sanded, I had to make the mould like that to get it to fill. Usually you would have a fill hole. It does work surprisingly well actually, all things considered. This keyboard is filthy, the switches are the later black type, and this is plastic that's not even the right type for this application.

[BlindAssassin111]

Is there a specific reason it has to be made out of ABS? Urethane comes in all sorts of grades and hardness's. With ABS you need steel moulds, and they can get very expensive. With urethane you can use rubber moulds. FWIW, here is something I knocked up this evening:

And the casing:

I don't have access to a vacuum pump right now so there are a few voids, and this is just a proof of concept. For example the cherry mount isn't even on straight! Second the top of the outer casing is just rough sanded, I had to make the mould like that to get it to fill. Usually you would have a fill hole. It does work surprisingly well actually, all things considered. This keyboard is filthy, the switches are the later black type, and this is plastic that's not even the right type for this application.

The sliders I am making out of POM, And I haven't decided on the top housing material, may go with POM as well or maybe something else, not sure yet.

[mR_Slug]

Ah POM, I missed the link to the other site. I'm not sure how much the tooling is going to cost you but I think you can do the slider in a 2-part mould. For people not familiar with moulding, POM is a thermoplastic (hot) requiring (usually) steel moulds which are (obviously) rigid.

The top housing, has those tabs that hold it down onto the clips. This is an undercut. It may be possible to make this in a 2-part mould, I'll have to look at it closer. If not, it may need a 3-part mould, which increases costs. A thermosetting polymer (cool) may work out cheaper. Particularly if it's a small run.

[BlindAssassin111]

Ah POM, I missed the link to the other site. I'm not sure how much the tooling is going to cost you but I think you can do the slider in a 2-part mould. For people not familiar with moulding, POM is a thermoplastic (hot) requiring (usually) steel moulds which are (obviously) rigid.

The top housing, has those tabs that hold it down onto the clips. This is an undercut. It may be possible to make this in a 2-part mould, I'll have to look at it closer. If not, it may need a 3-part mould, which increases costs. A thermosetting polymer (cool) may work out cheaper. Particularly if it's a small run.

The slider is being made with 2 parts and an insert for the spring guide and recess. I am a mechanical engineer so I am familiar with injection molding, but it is info that others may find interesting if they aren't familiar with how it is done.

Tooling is about $3000 and then the rest of the cost is setup, material and shipping them to me. Only making enough profit to buy some myself.

I think the housing may be able to be done in 2 parts with between 1 to 3 inserts depending on what there CNC capabilities are. So cost will be higher that I would like but it will be worth it for those who don't want to modify genuine alps housings.

[Mattr567]

Warm and fuzzy

[snuci]

Stiff and undocumented? More pics to come...

SKCC brown

SKCC brown.jpg (507.69 KiB) Viewed 5530 times

[Mattr567]

Stiff and undocumented? More pics to come...

SKCC brown.jpg

Ooh, what board did they come off of?

[rich1051414]

Is there a specific reason it has to be made out of ABS? Urethane comes in all sorts of grades and hardness's. With ABS you need steel moulds, and they can get very expensive. With urethane you can use rubber moulds. FWIW, here is something I knocked up this evening:

Dscn1709.jpg

And the casing:

Dscn1725.jpg

I don't have access to a vacuum pump right now so there are a few voids, and this is just a proof of concept. For example the cherry mount isn't even on straight! Second the top of the outer casing is just rough sanded, I had to make the mould like that to get it to fill. Usually you would have a fill hole. It does work surprisingly well actually, all things considered. This keyboard is filthy, the switches are the later black type, and this is plastic that's not even the right type for this application.

Urethane is pretty tough, but elastic isn't it? Most people like ABS because of its semi-elastic characteristics lending to great impact resistance, and urethane is on a totally different level. But doesn't urethane have problems with degradation over time? From what I understand, water, light, and heat will degrade the urethane over time, warping swelling and crumbling into splinters over the coarse of its life.

I have a 3d printer that can print urethane, and the toughness of that stuff surprised me every time. I feel like I am going to pull a muscle destringing it xD But I honestly don't know how it would hold up over time.

[snuci]

Stiff and undocumented? More pics to come...]

Ooh, what board did they come off of?

Pics posted here: photos-f62/pre-production-apple-iie-alp ... 18055.html

[mR_Slug]

The stuff I used has a tensile strength of just 2400 psi and an elongation-at-break of 20%. ABS has approx 6000 psi and 25%. I don't know much about POM. There are some urethanes that will give you an elongation at break of 400%, though with low tensile strength. There are ones with UV protection and ones that can take ~260°F. I don't know anything about water applications.

Here's a copy paste of the relevant specs for three more normal types:
1.
Ultimate Tensile: 6,650 psi
Tensile Modulus: 290,000 psi
Elongation @ Break: 6 %
Flexural Strength: 9,500 psi
Flexural Modulus: 288,000 psi

2.
Ultimate Tensile: 5,500 psi
Tensile Modulus: 270,000 psi
Elongation @ Break: 7.5%
Flexural Strength: 7,100 psi
Flexural Modulus: 250,000 psi

3:
Ultimate Tensile: 2,720 psi
Tensile Modulus: 126,000 psi
Elongation @ Break: 20%
Flexural Strength: 5,620 psi
Flexural Modulus: 170,000 psi

As you can see it varies. Generally, more stretchy = less tensile strength.

@BlindAssassin111. - If you are just about to go ahead with a group-buy/10,000 order, and everyone's happy with the price, then you're set. I don't mean to throw a spanner in the works, but I would ask some manufactures about thermoset. They'll be able to tell you if it's worth investigating for a quantity of 10,000. I have no experience with this kind of quantity.

[BlindAssassin111]

@BlindAssassin111. - If you are just about to go ahead with a group-buy/10,000 order, and everyone's happy with the price, then you're set. I don't mean to throw a spanner in the works, but I would ask some manufactures about thermoset. They'll be able to tell you if it's worth investigating for a quantity of 10,000. I have no experience with this kind of quantity.

You are good, I am using POM because alps and cherry sliders are made of that, so it will have the least chance of changing the feel of the switches and will have the same low friction properties that makes it so great. Which is why I may make the top housing from it as it would mean they are super smooth and may make the best combo.

[twinrotor]

Looks like I need to dig through some more boxes.. Just stumbled across this guy:

Dell NL25-KP