F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[FXT]

From the pictures of the F77, the cable is not removable, right? I will probably get a coiled cable too and I want to make sure I pick the right one.

It's my understanding that the F77 just uses an xwhatsit so a micro USB cable will work just fine.

[j0d1]

Awesome, thanks for the info.

[tron]

From the pictures of the F77, the cable is not removable, right? I will probably get a coiled cable too and I want to make sure I pick the right one.

It's my understanding that the F77 just uses an xwhatsit so a micro USB cable will work just fine.

Micro usb or mini usb? The Xwhatsit on my 5251 has mini usb.

[FXT]

I'd assume Micro USB. The xwhatsit in my F107 uses Micro USB.

[codemonkeymike]

I saw the controller in person, it is a miniaturized xwhatsit controller. I think it was micro USB from what I can remember.

[wobbled]

I hope the usb connector on the mini xwhatsits are more durable than the full size xwhatsits. I managed to break two of those boards.

[evoman]

From the pictures of the F77, the cable is not removable, right? I will probably get a coiled cable too and I want to make sure I pick the right one.

It's my understanding that the F77 just uses an xwhatsit so a micro USB cable will work just fine.

Does the F77 come with a USB cable? I was assuming it would, but these comments made me wonder, and when I looked at the website I don't see any notes in the order listing.

[yac]

I hope the usb connector on the mini xwhatsits are more durable than the full size xwhatsits. I managed to break two of those boards.

This is what i worry about, my IBM Model F despite having a broken rubber bushing is soldiering through its fourth decade of flawless service, as is its cable, still spotless, still as smooth and bendy as when it left the factory. Gotta love those banned plastic additives.

I think the best would be to mod the Ellipse Model F's so that the usb connection is protected inside the case, and then a beefy rubber bushing securing it exiting the case. I looked at the GB for the curly cables, seemed a tad short for me. I don't want my cable under any kind of tension, USB are not DIN-5, not worried about the male, worried about the female it plugs into, usually an expensive laptop.

As components of a system increase in durability, the system as a whole is only as durable as its weakest link, IMHO.

[duface]

I think the best would be to mod the Ellipse Model F's so that the usb connection is protected inside the case, and then a beefy rubber bushing securing it exiting the case.

I think that's actually how its designed already . The micro usb connector is inside the case, and the case needs to be taken apart to swap out the cable. IIRC, the compact case has an exposed connector.

[wobbled]

I think the best would be to mod the Ellipse Model F's so that the usb connection is protected inside the case, and then a beefy rubber bushing securing it exiting the case.

I think that's actually how its designed already . The micro usb connector is inside the case, and the case needs to be taken apart to swap out the cable. IIRC, the compact case has an exposed connector.

Even so, I really hope the connector itself is more durable on these smaller boards. I have broken the one on my FSSK just by moving the cable out of the way of the case which pulled up on the connector slightly and it popped off. You wouldn't have that same issue with mini usb or USB B. I may just have to drench the connector in hot glue or something so my stupid ass doesn't break it. I had to ship an F107 to Ellipse once so he could fix it for me and it almost got lost in the post.

[j0d1]

I looked at the GB for the curly cables, seemed a tad short for me.

The picture in the group buy doesn't seem to represent the end product. L1 in the diagram is supposed to be 150 mm, which hopefully is enough to avoid tension inside the F77 case.

[daedalus]

So, rather than receiving your new shiny Model F early (assuming that it was even an option, I don't even now : ), still with the option to enrich it later and make it become the exact replica you've been waiting for, you say you prefer to wait for the final 100% match, risking anyway it won't be a 100% match.

Might be my software dev mindset, but I'd rather choose to release early, fail early, fix early.

There's a whole bunch of very big differences between producing software and producing hardware, the biggest ones in my mind are:

1) Software is pretty much infinitely malleable. If I produce a mobile or web application, I can make tweaks after it's been released to the customer for free (leaving aside the cost of my labour). For a hardware project, I have to produce new physical parts and sell them to the customer (in addition to the cost of my labour).
2) There are all sorts of fun economies of scale involved in manufacturing physical goods which don't apply to software. It I write an app, it does not cost me more to sell it to one person vs. ten thousand. On the physical hardware side, not only do I have to take this into consideration, I also have to consider that producing ten thousand items one at a time costs a lot more than mass producing ten thousand items in one go.

There's a good reason why agile hasn't really caught on in the manufacturing and construction world

[darkcruix]

There's a good reason why agile hasn't really caught on in the manufacturing and construction world

The horrible part is that in these days the agile methodology starts to creep into other areas as well because it worked so well in the software business. You can't overlay it over services and hardware so easily and there will be a "disillusioning" period in many businesses over the next years.

[Scarpia]

There's a good reason why agile hasn't really caught on in the manufacturing and construction world

Agile hasn't caught on in manufacturing, but Lean has (and many would consider Agile to be the lovechild of Lean and software development). In fact, Lean methodology originally came from manufacturing (Toyota specifically).

And recently, with improved rapid prototyping methods, the product development cycle at many manufacturers (from Apple to VW to SpaceX) is approaching something more like the agile workflows from the software world.

[webwit]

Haha yeah I remember when I was in college (looong ago before agile), the first thing we learned about for IT project management was kaizen.

[darkcruix]

SixSigma / Lean etc. looks at the process inside the production cycle. Once it is leaving the factory the process ends.
For this project - surely you can get a quick prototype in place, but we want high quality manufacturing at a certain price point.

[depletedvespene]

There's a good reason why agile hasn't really caught on in the manufacturing and construction world

The horrible part is that in these days the agile methodology starts to creep into other areas as well because it worked so well in the software business. You can't overlay it over services and hardware so easily and there will be a "disillusioning" period in many businesses over the next years.

Allow me to disagree on that. "Agile" has caught on around here and is creating a huge amount of messes and hidden ticking bombs that are going to explode in the near future, all while the current bosses collect the praises for their "efficiency". I could talk about this for two hours straight.

[Shihatsu]

And as soon as you hold a second to get some fresh air, I would continue for at least another two hours. I do not know how to say it in english, so I do it in German: "Da wird die nächste Sau durchs Dorf getrieben". Management members all see the newest buzzwords (nowadays it is "Agile" and "DevOPS"), jump on the hypetrains without understanding what it even means but KNOWING (not thinking, they actually think they KNOW, capital intended) that these hypes will solve all their problems (which, in some cases, don't even exist). A, I could rant like forever...

[webwit]

An excellent method to get a guaranteed mediocre production of questionable long-term quality.

[depletedvespene]

A couple months ago, someone asked me if I still thought that the Agile methodology was garbage. My answer? "I was wrong! Agile is actually worse than garbage.".

[darkcruix]

A couple months ago, someone asked me if I still thought that the Agile methodology was garbage. My answer? "I was wrong! Agile is actually worse than garbage.".

Sorry to open the box of pandora. That shows me, we have to survive in a world that is driven by quick shareholder money increase on top of the backs of the consumer.
I decided, I want quality that I value for a longer time. I don't care about the additional cost as it lasts longer and is less expensive in the long run. I want a product that is well tested, crafted and designed.
The product of this thread seems to me is fulfilling this promise.

[depletedvespene]

On that, we agree.

We can then type on our respective F62/F77 our rantings about Agile and other crap. That, or create new things. I may have a couple ideas lurking around in my brain for a couple new short stories...

[andrewjoy]

Ship now patch later is the bigest problem with software now, so basicly the ubiquity of the internet as made software worse. Canning your whole test team ( Yes you microsoft) is also a problem but this again is a resut of the patch now fix later culture. I mean who would think 10 years ago that windows would be rolling release

[depletedvespene]

"Ship now patch later" isn't really the problem. The real problem is that "patch later" has quickly become "perhaps patch if I ever remember to do so amidst a bunch of new requirements that keep flooding in".

[andrewjoy]

Any product be is software or hardware should work when shipped, massive bugs that cause crashes perfromace to fall or or stuff to just not work as it should are NOT known shippables they never have been, but its like, ok send it out now and by the time people find there are bugs and start plastering it all over the internet then we will have fixed it. NO! Wait that 1-2 months and fix your shit before you ship it.

What did people do before you could just randomly patch things whenever you want ? On very rare occasions there where bugs found that could not wait till the next full version and a updated disk was sent out but that was not the norm by any means. It has become the norm tho.

[Ellipse]

This month I had the honor to speak with a dye sublimation expert and chat over email with one of the supervisory engineers of the early 1980s Model F keyboard production! The IBMer helpfully offered detailed specifications and production notes on the springs and dye sublimation process - two greatly needed parts of the project. He even remembered the exact PBT material IBM used for the keys! IBM seems to have done the dye sublimation at significant economies of scale with huge machines; I have to see if smaller-scale machines produce the same results or if I have to find a factory to take care of this. Quality control (legend alignment especially) will be the most important part of dye sublimation.

Regarding the cases and clearances for custom USB wires, the ultra compact cases have the port so you can plug in a cable directly without having to open the case. The opening is 1-2mm bigger on all sides to accommodate different-sized micro USB connectors. The classic cases have short length of wire inside the case and the USB cable has a metal P clip for strain relief like the originals. The controller is more recessed than the original F62/F77 (mostly underneath the bottom inner assembly) to allow the micro USB connector to fit in the case without having to offer a different controller design for compact and standard cases.

[Elrick]

Quality control (legend alignment especially) will be the most important part of dye sublimation.

Glad you zeroed in on the MOST important part of this keyboard, the whole key-set which everyone will see and use under their finger tips.

Have great faith that you will deliver on this because there is no other way to avoid the crucial aspect of this keyboard. Whilst the switches which are certainly important for everyone here, the 'key-caps' will be the 'Rolls-Royce' insignia for every keyboard owner to observe and treasure.

[darkcruix]

This month I had the honor to speak with one of the supervisory engineers of the early 1980s Model F keyboard production! He helpfully offered detailed specifications and production notes on the springs and dye sublimation process - two greatly needed parts of the project. He even remembered the exact PBT material IBM used for the keys! ...

Wow, this is awesome! IBM itself should think about to honor your work and support you with all details (and might even bless your work with an official statement or support
Thanks so much for your strength to follow this way!

[ilezia]

Argh! Haven't really been keeping an eye on the forum at all for well over a year. Vaguely remember this topic popping up but shrugged my shoulders then. Now the itch to get one is real though and it looks like I've caught up at the last possible moment! Pretty much decided that I need the F62 Kishsaver or else I will regret it one day. Just trying to decide whether to go with the beige or industrial grey finish. Does anyone have an approximate RAL reference for the industrial grey?

[Aer Fixus]

Argh! Haven't really been keeping an eye on the forum at all for well over a year. Vaguely remember this topic popping up but shrugged my shoulders then. Now the itch to get one is real though and it looks like I've caught up at the last possible moment! Pretty much decided that I need the F62 Kishsaver or else I will regret it one day. Just trying to decide whether to go with the beige or industrial grey finish. Does anyone have an approximate RAL reference for the industrial grey?

photos-f62/ibm-4704-f107-in-ral-7030-in ... 11432.html

Looks like RAL 7030 is a close match.