REALFORCE R2 "PFU Limited Edition" impressions thread

[blighty]

20180809_083540.jpg (262.51 KiB) Viewed 17353 times

I've been typing on the new Topre Realforce x PFU R2 silenced TKL board for the last few days. So far, so good. My only electrocapacitive experience has been with a 75% NIZ/Plum board, but the scratchness of the sliders on that board and how much the board rattled make it kind of a "meh" feeling. The new Realforce x PFU board is a quiet, rather solid-feeling board (unlike any MX board, nothing on it rattles). APC is a cool feature, but I can't say I notice the difference between actuation points. I kind of wish it had MX sliders, but I suppose I can just as easily swap boards vs. swapping caps if I really want to type on something different. Anyone have a love/hate for the new R2 boards?

[ag36]

RGB TKL with mx slider is coming

[ShivaYash]

Thanks for this update.

Does this KB replace the 87u?

[Auslander]

Yeah i was told the R2 is replacing the older range.

[Muirium]

Did Topre fix that rotated left control key I forever forget about from the 87U?

And what does the PCB look like now? More integrated like a NovaTouch?

[Elrick]

Yeah i was told the R2 is replacing the older range.

The older range are still SUPERB and you can easily tell it's a Realforce but the latest models look like some Yum-cha-no name style done in the back streets of China, rather than coming from Japan.

So sad to see how far Realforce has fallen, all we need now is some Gamer Motto sprayed on top, to attract the youngsters looking for something cool to play with.

They may even need to change the name to "Gamer Force" or "Vengeance Keyboard" and promote it through all the Gamer sites .

[Trev]

Yeah i was told the R2 is replacing the older range.

The older range are still SUPERB and you can easily tell it's a Realforce but the latest models look like some Yum-cha-no name style done in the back streets of China, rather than coming from Japan.

So sad to see how far Realforce has fallen, all we need now is some Gamer Motto sprayed on top, to attract the youngsters looking for something cool to play with.

They may even need to change the name to "Gamer Force" or "Vengeance Keyboard" and promote it through all the Gamer sites .

You're starting to sound like a cranky old man, Elrick. Have you even tried one?

The older version has way more funny/annoying Topre quirks than the new model does. Topre resolved some long-standing issues. Generally, the R2 seems to be a vastly improved board over the first gen. I miss the curvy original case shape too, but the new one is slightly more sturdy since the top doesn't wiggle around. It doesn't look like a gamer board at all.

There's no way I'd recommend someone purchase the older versions when these models are available.

These are the differences I could spot over R1 (not necessarily important differences, just a reference):
- Standard layout bottom row
- No bubble on Win-key
- All-45g weighted
- Silenced Purple stems
- PBT spacebar
- Media keys with FN + arrow-cluster
- Software settings and function key combos instead of of dip-switches
- Wooden wrist rest included
- Small carbon fiber inlay
- Backspace keycap legend is now a single line of text
- Glossy color packaging instead of a brown box
- LED status indicator colors and brightness can be changed
- No extra wobbly caps or flipped switch positions like Realforce R1
- New case design with similar design features to Novatouch/Leopold/RF RGB
- Variable actuation point (1.5mm, 2.0mm, 3.0mm)

My write up and disassembly is here.

[Trev]

Did Topre fix that rotated left control key I forever forget about from the 87U?

And what does the PCB look like now? More integrated like a NovaTouch?

Yes, finally! PBT spacebar too. Madness

[XMIT]

Oh boy. *Another* keyboard forum?!

It's getting hard to keep up with all the different goings on.

[Belfong]

Thanks for the write up. Is this really Limited Edition or is R2 going to be the only one offered by Realforce in future?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Muirium]

Nice write up Trev. And answers my PCB question: yup, looks like Topre was heading this way via the NovaTouch as I suspected when I first got inside one.

Putting on my old man hat, I’ve a few complaints about this keyboard:

• The case design, yeah, is real different. The old one was so nice! I’ll give them credit for distinctiveness, however. This isn’t designed to fit into the modern crowd unnoticed, fortunately. Some of your pictures intrigue me as much as furrow my brow.
• The LED cluster is a nice vintage touch, making life easier for all of us by sparing us those windowed keycaps. I’m not sold on the big block they’ve made of it by design, but it’s a look and it ain’t hiding. What’s the fourth LED for, by the way? A keyboard lock?
• That Return key legend. Sticks out even more now they fixed Back… Space. Oof!
• The redesigned 1.25u bottom row is a nice idea FOR MX COMPATIBILITY THIS BOARD DOES NOT HAVE! It’s actualky a recipe for orphaned Topre keysets—like the tasty one I have coming from KBDFans—so I’m not immediately keen on it to put it mildly! I do love Topre’s own caps, so MX compatibility isn’t the highest holy grail for me. But half measures can be worse than none at all.
• And finally time for my Bluetooth rant. Where in the cup rubbery oneness is it? This is 2018 for goodness sake. I wanna use this with my iPad without the hassle of a mandatory, attached trip wire! They did it in the HHKB, so why not this top end Realforce? Damn it, there’s not even a socket so we can attach our own, shorter cable. Gah! My single least favourite Realforce feature of them all survives the second generation!

Still, PBT spacebar is glorious. And this thing’s getting your praise on feel. That’s me intrigued! I can’t expect miracles, especially from super-interested-in-opinionated-gaijin Topre, but this board is an excellent sign they’re still in the game and still performing solidly at what they do best. Perhaps Prof. Hasu will figure something out? I have him to thank for my Bluetooth HHKB Type-S, as much as you and 002 for tempting me in the first place!

[matt3o]

My write up and disassembly is here.

great write up as always Trev. Now, can we talk about the elephant in the room? What's this typehype thing!?

Regarding the keyboard:
- enter key legend is like a kick in the nuts
- Windows-only software? I'm surprised Muirium is not more livid about it
- Please for all Japanese gods! Give me a 55g version!

[Trev]

Oh boy. *Another* keyboard forum?!

Apologies, it's my site. I wanted to keep this about the PFU RF though, since there's fairly limited info floating around at the moment.

Thanks for the write up. Is this really Limited Edition or is R2 going to be the only one offered by Realforce in future?

I don't think anyone knows how long the silent all-45g PFU Edition will hang around, or how "Limited" it truly is. It's an excellent combo though and I'd highly suggest anyone wanting a silent board to pick one up. I'd assume that Topre will carry on producing the R2 TKL's, but they may not be in the same silent/45g config (similar to the Ducky Limited Ed. RF).

The case design, yeah, is real different. The old one was so nice! I’ll give them credit for distinctiveness, however. This isn’t designed to fit into the modern crowd unnoticed, fortunately. Some of your pictures intrigue me as much as furrow my brow.

It's really not bad, and actually probably better quality than the old one. It just doesn't have that unique RF shape. It definitely doesn't look gamer-y in person, very conservative still.

What’s the fourth LED for, by the way? A keyboard lock?

It's a function key combo that disables Win-key

The redesigned 1.25u bottom row is a nice idea FOR MX COMPATIBILITY THIS BOARD DOES NOT HAVE! It’s actually a recipe for orphaned Topre keysets...

I still prefer it since the proportions/layout feels much more standard. The 1u bubble key was off-putting even in long term use, IMO.

And finally time for my Bluetooth rant. Where in the cup rubbery oneness is it?

100% agree. Topre moves so slowly on things like BT and USB-C, but they didn't really pull it off with the HHKB. They added their crazy AA battery tumor (despite empty internal case volume) instead of using modern battery technology in any shape or form. I still kind of want the BT HHKB though.

Still, PBT spacebar is glorious. And this thing’s getting your praise on feel. That’s me intrigued! I can’t expect miracles, especially from super-interested-in-opinionated-gaijin Topre, but this board is an excellent sign they’re still in the game and still performing solidly at what they do best

They're definitely still in the game and this is a legit successor. Excellent out of box experience. Are there many keyboards in production that are this good?

[Muirium]

I actually quite like 1.5-1-1.5u mods. They feel more distinctive to me, just like my beloved IBMs. 1.25s all run together. As for the bubbles, I’ve used nice flush “Widows” caps on my 87u ever since I laid my hands on a spare arrow set. The arrow cluster is red and the left and right originals serve as my Option keys. Looking forward to that Cherry style KBDfans keyset though!

As for doing Bluetooth right, here’s my HHKB:



Keyboard by Topre/PFU, controller by Hasu. It’s a peach! And I use the hell out of it.


@Matteo: I’d rant about the software if it was essential to the keyboard’s function. Truth is, I wouldn’t alter anything more than once. Standard Topre actuation height is fine for me, and I suspect I’d stick with it after a little experimentation. Picking LED lock colours is nice, but again a set and forget. What would really sting is if the whole layout was programmable, like Hasu’s, and I was locked out of that.

[matt3o]

How's battery life @Muirium. I also have Hasu's controller, never managed to actually use it since he said battery life was around 4 hours.

[Muirium]

I feared that. So I threw a big battery at it! Discussion on my use case here:

workshop-f7/ble-capsense-controller-top ... 00#p421114

Hasu suggests a smaller battery (maybe 50-75% the capacity I use, I forget the details now as I did all this in winter) and I dare say he’s right. Mine is so big I’ve never once run it low. Mind, it’s also so big it takes bloody hours to charge, even on a 12 Watt iPad charger. The Sparkfun 2500 mAh battery I put in mine is a bit of a squeeze, which is why Hasu advises smaller, but I had it spare and it works a champ. I might swap it out for another Bluetooth project eventually, playing safe with a smaller cell, as battery life is so good.

Definitely try putting yours through its paces! I easily put 5+ hours on it daily, often much more, and only charge every few days.

[the_marsbar]

The R2 looks nice. I'm curious what difference the APC makes. I'm also a bit curious about bluetooth functionality missing, I wonder what the rationale behind that is.

Wrt. the HHKB BT/Hasu controller; I really wanted a HHKB BT, but I'd like to be able to use it with a cable also, which is unfortunately not possible. I then got Hasu's BT controller, even though I didn't plan on installing a battery, because it would allow using the keyboard with my i-devices. It works great! One issue though, which is a dealbreaker for me; there's a capacitor that generates a high-pitched whine, which I just can't ignore. So now I have one of Hasu's USB controllers (which doesn't have this problem because the capacitor is not there). However, that leaves me without the BT option

[Muirium]

That’s a bugger! I’ve crazy ears that usually latch right onto even the highest pitched of whines. None that I’ve noticed from my Hasu BT, in wired or wireless use. I have a theory: maybe that’s what happens when you run it without a battery connected? I’ve never used mine without a battery attached. But my understanding is that regardless of the power switch position, any connected USB power is routed to the battery for charging. Maybe it doesn’t have anywhere to go!

The fact Hasu’s Bluetooth controller has USB output as a backup was also in my mind when I threw my hands up, declared “fuck it, let’s do this thing!” and bought it in the first place. I reasoned I was getting a programmable USB controller kit of it in any case, and even that would work with the iPad (with a dorky dongle) while the stock controller simply could not. Fortunately for me, its Bluetooth kicks ass and I’m fully satisfied. Weird, bat-sensitive ears, included.

[XMIT]

Oh boy. *Another* keyboard forum?!

Apologies, it's my site. I wanted to keep this about the PFU RF though, since there's fairly limited info floating around at the moment.

Welcome to off-topic-thority, where threads ramble and meander for many years.

I have a coworker going to Japan in the next month. I was going to have him pick me up an SE070S at Tsukumo but instead I'll pick up a REALFORCE R2. You only mentioned amazon.co.jp as a source. Any other potential sources in Tokyo?

Sadly none of the SKUs at http://www.realforce.co.jp/products/index_office.html are all of: variable load, APC, silenced, black. Plus not all the models are available yet. So I'll just have to make do with R2TLSA-US4-IV - 45g, APC, silenced, beige. Or R2TLSA-US4-BK, its black counterpart.

As for the other site: I was frustrated to see some APT keyboard giveaway. There is some bad blood there between me, that manufacturer, and Massdrop. I'll detail that in some future post. I'm not pointing fingers since the current situation is partially my fault but the relationship is not great.

[XMIT]

Any other potential sources in Tokyo?

Oh hey, Topre even has a list of retail partners in Japan at http://www.realforce.co.jp/shops/index.html. I'll need to spend some time going through each shop's Web site to see who has what, but I should be able to answer my own question.

[matt3o]

okay. so.

after months (possibly years) that we are talking about updating the forum, making it ready for the new millennium, adding features. we were welcoming user inputs and actually asked for help and support. Also I said multiple times that I wanted to change software. So then what happens? Someone opens a new forum... about keyboards. Now, you are totally free to do whatever you want and I wish you all the best with your endeavor, but honestly it seems to me we are diluting resources more than they already are.

/off-topic

[Muirium]

I get your fragmentation argument. But it’s always easier to start from a blank page than to retrofit something living and rich with its own history. If someone has an itch to start their own new thing, good on them. For what it’s worth, I prefer the DT look to what I saw on Trev’s thread—seriously, that dodgy non-100% snap to zoom on iPhone was driving me nuts until I hit Safari Reader mode to obliterate it—and indeed I find our forum’s look superior to everything else I’ve seen out there, past and ever evolving present. I wouldn’t describe DT as old and stodgy. It looks so clean! But I understand you guys in the back end have worries about server software that I don’t see at the user facing cosmetic level. I really like what we’ve got, is all.

Seeing as we’re in full meander here, the only things that bother me in DT are the Quick Reply behaviour in Safari on iOS (changed for the worse a few years ago — horizontal scrolling? Gah!), the attachment upload UI, and the random image loading in graphics intensive threads. Those only bother me because we do the big things so right. My god, it’s still an ugly internet out there!

[Muirium]

Just been inside my HHKB Hasu-BT at Marsbar's request. Thought I'd write it up in public here for anyone interested. I've been meaning to delve inside and check up on the big battery I squeezed in there, anyway. My 2500 mAh Sparkfun battery pack is doing just fine: no visible change, as it should be.

But what about capacitor noise? Well, I took out the battery, closed up the HHKB, and plugged it into an iPad charger, then my old PowerBook here, running the wee keyboard past my ear like a bit of a loony, listening very closely indeed. I flicked Hasu's power switch on and off a few times in both configurations, and it was only then that I heard a noise. When the HHKB has no battery attached, has a USB power source, and is first flipped "on" into Bluetooth mode, yes I could hear a mild electronic whine then. Very quiet though, much less annoying than most USB chargers, and I noticed it pulsed in time with the pairing light.

Putting my battery back in again, I reran the experiment with onboard juice as well. The sound is still present when the keyboard's in pairing mode. But it's so damn quiet. Right now for instance, I've got it on my lap, hooked up by USB to my 2003 vintage PowerBook an arm's length away, and the faint sound of the wee Mac's hard disc whirring drowns out the HHKB entirely even when I've the keyboard pressed right up next to my ear! This is one very faint whine we're talking about indeed.

When I listened to it with everything else silent, it sounded more complex than just a constant, or even toggling whine. It's near my hearing's limits to tell, but to me it had a digital complexity to it, like old graphics cards do when you've your head in the case! I reckon it could be the Bluetooth module itself, and what I'm hearing is its ready-to-pair-new-hosts broadcast on repeat.

Now, it could be that Marsbar has truly epic hearing and is picking all this up in excruciating detail. Stuff that I can only barely sense when I've the keyboard at my face! Quite how he lives in a world of far worse routine whirs and hums I dread to think! Or, more likely I reckon, as I'm quite proud of my hearing!, my particular Hasu BT controller is better behaved and actually quieter than his. He could just have a loud one.

How loud is it, anyway? Can it show up on a microphone? Mine's too quiet to register, I'm sure. You may want to sell yours to someone with less discerning ears, I know there's plenty of them!

[Sup]

Oof i don't really like the new design but that is probably because i always had the big boi bezel ones. I guess i will order quikly a old stock r1 one because that one will be probably out of production soonTM.

[Trev]

I have a coworker going to Japan in the next month. I was going to have him pick me up an SE070S at Tsukumo but instead I'll pick up a REALFORCE R2. You only mentioned amazon.co.jp as a source. Any other potential sources in Tokyo?

Keep in mind that the PFU "limited edition" models are different to what Topre will be doing, they haven't released R2 TKL models yet.

I get your fragmentation argument. But it’s always easier to start from a blank page than to retrofit something living and rich with its own history. If someone has an itch to start their own new thing, good on them.

That's precisely it. Aside from PhpBB and lack of mobile support, I love DT and think the community and knowledge of the member-base is completely unmatched. The signal to noise is also unusually good. Unfortunately, the experience provided by PhpBB and Germany -> Aus network connectivity tends to keep me in lurk mode far more than I'd like.

For what it’s worth, I prefer the DT look to what I saw on Trev’s thread—seriously, that dodgy non-100% snap to zoom on iPhone was driving me nuts until I hit Safari Reader mode to obliterate it—and indeed I find our forum’s look superior to everything else I’ve seen out there, past and ever evolving present. I wouldn’t describe DT as old and stodgy. It looks so clean! But I understand you guys in the back end have worries about server software that I don’t see at the user facing cosmetic level. I really like what we’ve got, is all.

Hrmm, not certain what you mean by non-100% snap to zoom. Our front-end is in a state of flux though since I'm re-writing a good chunk of the Xenforo2 UI by myself. It's quite massive. We have a good long-term plan for it all though.

Deskthority still doesn't support mobile-sized viewports, unless I'm missing something obvious.

But what about capacitor noise? ...

Funny to see you mention this. I've always been able to hear high frequency noises better than others around me, which can end up fairly annoying when electronics start blasting out mystery whines nobody else can hear Through my childhood and teen years I could hear CRT displays too, they emit a crazy whine when first warming up and some even whine in normal usage.

[the_marsbar]

Putting my battery back in again, I reran the experiment with onboard juice as well. The sound is still present when the keyboard's in pairing mode. But it's so damn quiet. Right now for instance, I've got it on my lap, hooked up by USB to my 2003 vintage PowerBook an arm's length away, and the faint sound of the wee Mac's hard disc whirring drowns out the HHKB entirely even when I've the keyboard pressed right up next to my ear! This is one very faint whine we're talking about indeed.

When I listened to it with everything else silent, it sounded more complex than just a constant, or even toggling whine. It's near my hearing's limits to tell, but to me it had a digital complexity to it, like old graphics cards do when you've your head in the case! I reckon it could be the Bluetooth module itself, and what I'm hearing is its ready-to-pair-new-hosts broadcast on repeat.

Now, it could be that Marsbar has truly epic hearing and is picking all this up in excruciating detail. Stuff that I can only barely sense when I've the keyboard at my face! Quite how he lives in a world of far worse routine whirs and hums I dread to think! Or, more likely I reckon, as I'm quite proud of my hearing!, my particular Hasu BT controller is better behaved and actually quieter than his. He could just have a loud one.

How loud is it, anyway? Can it show up on a microphone? Mine's too quiet to register, I'm sure. You may want to sell yours to someone with less discerning ears, I know there's plenty of them!

Thanks for looking into it. I feared that would be the case. Actually I might try to record it, but the frequency is quite high, so it might not get picked up by the microphone(s) in my laptop.

Funny to see you mention this. I've always been able to hear high frequency noises better than others around me, which can end up fairly annoying when electronics start blasting out mystery whines nobody else can hear Through my childhood and teen years I could hear CRT displays too, they emit a crazy whine when first warming up and some even whine in normal usage.

Yeah, that has happened to me too. And various power adapters too (to the extent that we had to replace a router...).

[Muirium]

Hrmm, not certain what you mean by non-100% snap to zoom. Our front-end is in a state of flux though since I'm re-writing a good chunk of the Xenforo2 UI by myself. It's quite massive. We have a good long-term plan for it all though.

Deskthority still doesn't support mobile-sized viewports, unless I'm missing something obvious.

Correct. Which I like! I'm well and truly a member of Plus Club when it comes to phones. Big hands and fussy eyes. Mobile sites usually piss me off so I mostly browse full desktop style. DT's great for that in landscape.

As for your site, I loaded it on my iPhone again just now and whatever I was moaning about is no longer apparent. Maybe it was a side effect from slow image loading while I was out and about? DT's primary weakness is the same, of course, where pages render explosively as images pop unpredictably into place.

Through my childhood and teen years I could hear CRT displays too, they emit a crazy whine when first warming up and some even whine in normal usage.

CRTs all whine in normal use. I can still hear them! They're a bit of a rarity these days, but I can always tell when one's nearby and powered up, just by that telltale 'niiiiiiiiiii' pitch that comes off their magnets as they sweep. I can also hear most bats (we have bloody loads of them in Scotland) and find most loud environments unbearable, yay me.

[Trev]

As for your site, I loaded it on my iPhone again just now and whatever I was moaning about is no longer apparent. Maybe it was a side effect from slow image loading while I was out and about? DT's primary weakness is the same, of course, where pages render explosively as images pop unpredictably into place.

Could depend on the thread, since we have image-loading jank fairly well-sorted out, but other embedded stuff can still shuffle around the layout sometimes.

CRTs all whine in normal use. I can still hear them! They're a bit of a rarity these days, but I can always tell when one's nearby and powered up, just by that telltale 'niiiiiiiiiii' pitch that comes off their magnets as they sweep. I can also hear most bats (we have bloody loads of them in Scotland) and find most loud environments unbearable, yay me.

Bats? We've got bats. It's Australia, so of course they're huge and always fighting each other. They're called flying foxes and have wingspans up to >1m


I can still hear CRT's too. I actually did a quick informal blind test with a friend to see who could hear the highest sine-waves. I could detect the presence of tones a reasonable range higher than he could. This was using a decent amplifier/DAC setup + some Sennheiser 650's. What really drives me crazy is when people rub polystyrene pieces together to make them squeak. Machine noise I've learned to live with

Back to the PFU Realforce for a moment:
I'm still using that 1.5mm higher actuation point setting. It's quite noticeably different to the 3mm setting where you need to make very deliberate key presses. Topre bottoms out almost all the time, sure, but you can still do lazy half-presses that won't register on 2-3mm, but 1.5mm catches them (for better or worse).

Edit: Account and/or data entry roles is one niche where I'd imagine people preferring 3.0mm actuation on a keyboard, especially the numpad (you can set APC on a per-key basis too). So IMO, it's definitely not just a gimmick for gamers, it's a way for people to tweak the subtle behaviour of their switches. I'm assuming most keyboard nerds will actually appreciate this feature once they try it.

[matt3o]

So IMO, it's definitely not just a gimmick for gamers, it's a way for people to tweak the subtle behaviour of their switches. I'm assuming most keyboard nerds will actually appreciate this feature once they try it.

Leopold fc keyboard has 45g and very high actuation point that for me is very annoying. HHKB has the same 45g domes but a slightly deeper actuation point, making it a more pleasant experience. So possibly I'm one of those who would teak the actuation point and I don't think it's a gimmick at all.

Now if only 55g...

[Laser]

Leopold fc keyboard has 45g and very high actuation point that for me is very annoying. HHKB has the same 45g domes but a slightly deeper actuation point, making it a more pleasant experience. So possibly I'm one of those who would teak the actuation point and I don't think it's a gimmick at all.
.

I presume you could do that using Hasu's alternative controller for the FC660C?