F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[swampangel]

You mean the IBM originals — like my Kishsaver here — are aluminium? It's bloody heavy, whatever it is. Heavier than my 15" MacBook Pro.

According to Wolfram Alpha, zinc is 2.6X denser than aluminium. Without getting all Archimedes on the matter, my hunch is it's zinc. The metal case isn't *that* much thicker surely?

I think he means the IBM originals are all zinc, and it's only Ellipse's "ultra compact" cases that are aluminum.

[JP!]

Better put an armed guard on that boat. The Kish pirates…

We like to be referred to as the pirates of Kish

Spoiler:

capatain.jpg (64 KiB) Viewed 9208 times

[pbw]

I think he means the IBM originals are all zinc, and it's only Ellipse's "ultra compact" cases that are aluminum.

Correct. The IBM originals and Ellipse's reproductions of the same are both zinc, with the compact cases having aluminum

[Muirium]

Cool. Can’t say I know why IBM did it, but zinc sure gives the originals an otherworldly heft.

[NilesLinus]

Okay, I think I've managed to confuse myself. Though I'm sure this has been discussed at some point in 122 pages of archives, I would appreciate an updated rundown of the timeline. When did the early bird end? When did the second round begin? Can I guesstimate my delivery window based on my order date vis-a-vis this information. Oh and also, where does the Kickstarter campaign fit into everything? Thanks and sorry for the basic questions. I came to the project late I'm afraid.

[NilesLinus]

It appears that the solenoid hunt has become confused a little. This link, which is referenced on the Q/A page of the Model F site (and which I have used previously as well), now links to a beehive tool for uncapping honey cells. Such is the strangeness of Ali, I guess.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-6V-0 ... 95277.html

I did manage to get a couple solenoids ordered before everything moved on us and will let you know when they arrive from china.

I also ordered two of these. They were cheap enough for me to feel comfortable experimenting with. They were delivered very quickly from stateside and seem to be good quality. However I don't have enough electronics knowledge to trust myself, and won't dare plug them in unless some kind soul on this board is good enough to sign off on the safety of such an experiment. I will say they are tiny and should have no trouble fitting in the classic case.

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015

[NilesLinus]

And as long as I'm single-handedly filling up the forum tonight, I'd be interested in knowing which box you guys plan to plug your new model Fs into? Any ThinkPad users out there?

[Khers]

Okay, I think I've managed to confuse myself. Though I'm sure this has been discussed at some point in 122 pages of archives, I would appreciate an updated rundown of the timeline. When did the early bird end? When did the second round begin? Can I guesstimate my delivery window based on my order date vis-a-vis this information. Oh and also, where does the Kickstarter campaign fit into everything? Thanks and sorry for the basic questions. I came to the project late I'm afraid.

The first bird round hasn't closed yet, afaik, so if you just ordered you should be in the same pile as the rest of us. The second round is supposed to start (or at least close) at some point after people have received their first round keyboards.

As for delivery; the keyboards will arrive when they arrive. While perhaps not a valid point for you, this project is now so late and has come with so many timelines, and an equal amount of setbacks, that they are worthless. I'm not sure even Ellipse has an official shipping estimate anymore. If we were to belive the first proposed timeline, I would have had my keyboard in hand for around about two years at this point.

Just sit back and relax like most of us and enjoy the keyboard when it arrives. Don't worry, be happy.

[Zed]

I also ordered two of these. They were cheap enough for me to feel comfortable experimenting with. They were delivered very quickly from stateside and seem to be good quality. However I don't have enough electronics knowledge to trust myself, and won't dare plug them in unless some kind soul on this board is good enough to sign off on the safety of such an experiment. I will say they are tiny and should have no trouble fitting in the classic case.

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015

The comments and reviews for the Sparkfun solenoid mention running at higher than the spec voltage (5V, the driver board runs at 9V) for extra snappiness. That's the good news as I am sure we are all looking for a barrage of case denting smacks for maximum solenoid goodness.

Unfortunately, a look at the data sheet shows an operating current of 1.1A. That is over 3x the current limit of the Xwhatsit board. It would surprise me if the solenoid would even fire. The duty cycle specs from the datasheet are also a potential issue with the caveat that I am just looking at the data and have not used one of these guys before.

[NilesLinus]

I also have 2x the following solenoid:


DC 6V
40Ω
0.15A
0.9W
5mm/20g
26*20*37（mm）


Any thoughts?

Thanks.
-NL

[Zed]

That one looks like the closest match yet. I don't know if the 20G of force is going to be sufficient but electrically, it looks like the best of the options being discussed. Is it a push when activated? Where did you find it?

edit - That is the ebay one I was all worried about previously isn't it? So, it is going to be over-driven by the xwhatsit board which I learned from the Sparkfun discussion is probably OK and perhaps even desirable for our purposes but I do still wonder about the lifespan of the solenoid. These guys don't seem to be designed for long periods of jack hammer operation so it would be great to get some first-hand confirmation from someone who has actually installed one.

[NilesLinus]

I ordered it from Ali. I agree that some first-hand experimentation is probably in order. I don’t mind burning through a solenoid or two. I’d be less enthusiastic about burning through an Xwhatsit board.

[NilesLinus]

I ordered it from Ali. I agree that some first-hand experimentation is probably in order. I don’t mind burning through a solenoid or two. I’d be less enthusiastic about burning through an Xwhatsit board.

[Wingklip]

Will this keyboard be in mass production for the years to come, or will it be only these two production runs?

[Ellipse]

Just these two runs.

[Zed]

I ordered it from Ali. I agree that some first-hand experimentation is probably in order. I don’t mind burning through a solenoid or two. I’d be less enthusiastic about burning through an Xwhatsit board.

Confirmed by xwhatsit himself:

Those Sparkfun solenoids might not be such a good idea. Unlike the IBM solenoids, they have a very long throw, so there'll most likely be a noticeable delay when they activate. The IBM solenoid clickers only seem to move about 1mm or so. Also, the IBM solenoids hammer themselves against their own mounting bracket, which is what makes the nice click; these ones are just a standard solenoid designed to be used to move stuff, so they don't actually collide with anything.

The other problem is that they have a 4.5 ohm coil. My solenoid board outputs 9V, so it would try to pull 2A... scary! Even at 5V that would be 1.1A. The original IBM solenoids are about 33 ohms or thereabouts. Maybe you could put a big-ass power resistor inline with it but it's still not really going to sound all that nice because of the hefty throw.

From this thread: keyboards-f2/ibm-solenoid-question-t9103.html

emdude posted pics of his 3277 beam spring with a good pic of the type of solenoid we are looking for (I think):



From this thread: photos-f62/ibm-3277-beam-spring-keyboard-t14016.html

If I have my secret decoder ring set properly, the first three numbers might be an EIA code which would mean a company called Philmore was the manufacturer. I have only found switches made by them so far. Looking at other beam spring pics, it appears that different solenoids were also used but this one seems to match the description from xwhatsit.

[0100010]

More solenoid info : w-a-n-t-t-o-b-u-y-f59/beamspring-solenoids-t17066.html

Some pics : https://imgur.com/a/q2LhF

[listofoptions]

doing a quick bit of research on mouser and digikey produces this: http://www.deltaww.com/filecenter/Produ ... 0416-D.pdf

those should operate somewhat near the parameters needed electrically. getting the bit of metal bent to properly mount the thing and have it make the correct thocking is another can of worms.

edit: I also found these that should be rated above 33 Ohms at 9 volts:
http://www.deltaww.com/filecenter/Produ ... L-0418.pdf

https://www.digikey.com/Web%20Export/Co ... asheet.png

[Wingklip]

No future runs then?

[whocares]

No future runs then?

There will be another run, a couple months after the current ("early bird") run gets shipped.

[Zed]

More solenoid info : w-a-n-t-t-o-b-u-y-f59/beamspring-solenoids-t17066.html

Some pics : https://imgur.com/a/q2LhF

Thanks for the link! Good to know that the ebay model (same as the Ali one that NilesLinus has) works. I am a bit confused by the discussion of a "normal solenoid" (original IBM?) and the "new one without the metal ring" (ebay?) however. Does the new one sound a bit sluggish in the video to you guys? Unfortunately, it looks like hypkx has left the building but it seems as if he might be intentionally typing slower on the demo of the new model as if the solenoid can't quite keep up?

doing a quick bit of research on mouser and digikey produces this: http://www.deltaww.com/filecenter/Produ ... 0416-D.pdf

those should operate somewhat near the parameters needed electrically. getting the bit of metal bent to properly mount the thing and have it make the correct thocking is another can of worms.

edit: I also found these that should be rated above 33 Ohms at 9 volts:
http://www.deltaww.com/filecenter/Produ ... L-0418.pdf

https://www.digikey.com/Web%20Export/Co ... asheet.png

The first one you found looks pretty close but I am seeing 9V @ 70ohms for the second link? It still might work since it won't exceed the current rating of the Xwhatsit board but may be rather anemic.

Here is the first one you mentioned:

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/ ... ND/6599946

Quite a bit cheaper than the ebay/Ali one. The current draw is a bit high (.4A) but it may be OK.

Those specs also raise the issue of duty cycle and which flavor is appropriate. Pulse or intermittent? Also, have we gotten around to figuring out how much space is available in the classic and modern cases?

[listofoptions]

Honestly I'd rather go with the higher rated ohms, iirc the solenoids i listed have a force to travel curve that favors the smaller stoke distances. (On mobile pdfs work wierd some times)

[Ellipse]

Is this solenoid still up for consideration? Seems like the current ebay photo does not match the photos from the solenoid thread w-a-n-t-t-o-b-u-y-f59/beamspring-solenoids-t17066.html

https://www.ebay.com/itm/0837L-06C20-6V ... 1967978003

[Zed]

Good catch Ellipse. The link from the WTB thread auto directs to the current ebay model and it differs from the pics that Touch_It and just_add_coffee posted like you said. The specs in the link seem to imply differences in stroke and current. The old one shows 3A? current (and 2mm stroke) but that is way beyond what the xwhatsit board can supply (like 10x!) so something is screwy with that link since two members got it working. At any rate, the current ebay model looks good to me although it does have a longer throw. This may not be optimal as xwhatsit posted but it may be possible to mount it so as to shorten the maximum travel. Do we have enough room in the cases for the current ebay model? (26mm x 20mm x 37mm)

[Ellipse]

Yes it should fit - there is at least 33mm north of the inner assembly that is free space. The inside height is 24mm.

Would someone mind posting the specs and spec tolerances of the ideal solenoid? Something like 9V (6-12V), 33 ohms (25-35 ohms), throw distance XYZ mm, etc. and I can see what an OEM could do at low quantity. Any other characteristics?

[Luna]

Sold already.

[Zed]

Yes it should fit - there is at least 33mm north of the inner assembly that is free space. The inside height is 24mm.

Would someone mind posting the specs and spec tolerances of the ideal solenoid? Something like 9V (6-12V), 33 ohms (25-35 ohms), throw distance XYZ mm, etc. and I can see what an OEM could do at low quantity. Any other characteristics?

I would not spec the voltage tolerance >9V. 6-9V sounds good to me. Resistance looks fine. The current draw should be <300-350mA (this is a function of the voltage and resistance of the coil but we don't want to exceed the board specs). For the throw distance:

The IBM solenoid clickers only seem to move about 1mm or so. Also, the IBM solenoids hammer themselves against their own mounting bracket, which is what makes the nice click;

so 1-2mm sounds good? We are really looking for a short throw clicker and not a traditional solenoid designed to move something. This is the biggest difference to all the models we have been considering.

[Engicoder]

The IBM solenoid clickers only seem to move about 1mm or so. Also, the IBM solenoids hammer themselves against their own mounting bracket, which is what makes the nice click;

so 1-2mm sounds good? We are really looking for a short throw clicker and not a traditional solenoid designed to move something. This is the biggest difference to all the models we have been considering.

The force curves for the specific solenoid should be considered. Force decreases the further the plunger enters the solenoid coil. Therefore, even if a solenoid is spec'd at 10mm throw, the first mm is the strongest pull force and could be fine for a clicker as long as the drive pulse was of proper length or a stroke limiting bumper was used. The sound of the solenoid is very dependent on case cavity and mounting method and can vary from a nice thunk to very metallic clack using the same solenoid. Some experimentation will have to be done to ensure the case design, mounting location and specific solenoid result in the desired effect.

[pbw]

Not exactly a solenoid, but in my F122, I used a relay as a clicker:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/ ... ND/1236848

The relay seems to work pretty well. It's nowhere near the original one, but a relay instead of a solenoid might be something to consider. It's self contained, so no need to worry about modifying a pusher solenoid to stop the pin from being lost

[Sangdrax]

The main thing in a replacement solenoid is the resistance for current it draws from the xwhatsit solenoid board which is basically already almost at the limit you're going to get from USB. Secondary thing is the throw distance. But you can shorten the throw distance on pretty much all of them that have a bracket. Overvoltage doesn't matter much because the coils aren't charged for long periods of time, just fractions of a second at a time. The 6V one I've had since 2016 is still good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EdbFDnH5dg

The Chinese one I picked in the first place that got picked up and posted around all over the place was specifically because it was in the same resistance range as my IBM beamspring board (which was 36Ohm) and that it had a removable bracket I could drill new slots in to set the throw how I wanted.

Like for example, this one works fine if you shorten the throw to the desired length and if it physically fits in the case. https://www.ebay.com/itm/0837L-06K-6V-0 ... 1967978003

I would say ideal solenoid is: 30-40ohms resistance. 9V or lower (6V good for some extra oomph). Low current rating. Throw bracket. Small enough to fit. The resistance is paramount though. Stuff less than 28'ish Ohms shouldn't even be on the radar.