Not Sure I'm Happy with Cherry MX...

[mattlach]

So, I just received my new Ducky One with MX Greens on Friday, and honestly, I'm a bit disappointed.



I'm trying very hard to like it, but I don't think I do.

Some background. I've been using buckling spring keyboards, either original IBM Model M's or Unicomps for decades. Recently I decided it was time to leave the 80's and try something new.

I wanted:

• A Modern Sleek Industrial Design
• Backlighting (I'm a night owl, and my touch typing is not perfect when it comes to special characters)
• A Newer USB controller. The one Unicomp uses takes so long to initialize I often miss the BIOS splash screen if I want to enter BIOS, and sometimes it just flakes out, and I have to get down on the floor behind the PC and unplug and replug it to get the keyboard to work.
• NKRO

I went with MX greens because the buckling springs I love are both very clicky and very heavy, so I figured the greens would be the best match. I went with Ducky because I recently picked up a One 2 with MX Browns for my Fiance and I was very impressed with the build quality, fit and finish and keycaps.


What I like:

• Fit and Finish is very good. I've never seen anything better than a Ducky in this regard.
• Backlighting is nice, and it has very many different effects, which are cool (but I doubt I'll actually use them, because they seem like they would be distracting)
• The double shot PBT keycaps are the best OEM keycaps I've ever felt.
• The looks: Appearance wise it is exactly what I am looking for. Modern, sharp, simple, but not crazy gaming inspired.
• It's a full layout: I don't get the appeal of the Tenkeyless or 60% boards that have been so trendy for the last 5 years or so.
• Its the best Cherry MX board I've typed on.

What I don't:

• It's still a Cherry MX board. It comes nowhere near typing on a Model M.
• Light bleed: I wish the backlighting would shine through the keycaps only. The light leaks out from under the keys and reflects in my glossy screen.
• Application Key: By default the FN Key takes the place of the Application key. You can move it with dip switches on the bottom, but the keyboard doesn't come with an application key you can pop in if you do.

I'm going to give this some time to try to get used to it, but I don't think I'll ever be happy with any Cherry MX board. Alps or Topre don't seem promising either.

I really wish Unicomp would get their act together and design a modern board with NKRO, a new USB controller, modern industrial design and backlighting around buckling spring switches. Maybe even Model F style switches.

As far as I see things:

IBM Beamspring > IBM Model F > IBM Model M >> All Cherry MX, Alps and Topre > Rubber Dome & Scissor Switches.

[derzemel]

Well, for click and feel beamspring and buckling spring are universally considered to be the best, so, if you are searching for something comparable, I do not think you would have much luck.

Regarding the MX Greens, sadly, Cherry's design for click switches is not the best that is why a lot of people prefer Alps, Space Invaders, etc. (almost any other clicky switch actually). I find the the click produced by MX Green and Blue is too high pitched.

Looking at the latest cherry mount switch designs, I think that Kailh Box switches (the navy ones) might offer a good click and some nice tactility, albeit, still very different than Beamspring and Buckling spring.

So, if you are ever tempted to build a custom with clicky switches, Box Navies might be a good start.

Here is a review from Chyros for the Box Navy switches:

Now, regarding the light bleed, sadly, with cherry mx style switches, there will always be some light bleed, due to the way that the led is mounted in the switch, plate color, keycap color etc. Some of these issues might be mitigated using SMD LEDs with compatible switches (that have a transparent body, or a channel for the light).

The only back-light switch I know of without light bleed is the Logitech/Omron Romer-G (liner and tactile) switches. Sadly, these switches feel like shit. Here is a review of them (youtube), if you are curious

[Myoth]

I wanted:

• A Modern Sleek Industrial Design
• Backlighting (I'm a night owl, and my touch typing is not perfect when it comes to special characters)
• A Newer USB controller. The one Unicomp uses takes so long to initialize I often miss the BIOS splash screen if I want to enter BIOS, and sometimes it just flakes out, and I have to get down on the floor behind the PC and unplug and replug it to get the keyboard to work.
• NKRO

* Any modern keyboard
* a desk lamp
* Any modern keyboard
* Any modern keyboard

So basically you wanted a modern keyboard

I went with MX greens because the buckling springs I love are both very clicky and very heavy, so I figured the greens would be the best match.

MX clickies are not for everyone, and they don't really come close to BS, no switch really feels like BS (rightfully so )

I really wish Unicomp would get their act together and design a modern board with NKRO, a new USB controller, modern industrial design and backlighting around buckling spring switches. Maybe even Model F style switches.

Heh, NKRO is not possible on Model Ms, backlighting seems VERY hard to do and there is already a modern industrial unicomp keyboard.

As far as I see things:

IBM Beamspring > IBM Model F > IBM Model M >> All Cherry MX, Alps and Topre > Rubber Dome & Scissor Switches.

heh

In conclusion :



if you're dissapointed by Cherry MX just because of Cherry MX Greens, then you're not searching for the right thing from Cherry MX, their linears are far better than any other linear you can find, their tactiles are not the best, but they're nice, and their clickies are really hit or miss.

[mattlach]

Heh, NKRO is not possible on Model Ms, backlighting seems VERY hard to do and there is already a modern industrial unicomp keyboard.

There is nothing about a Model M switch that precludes making a NKRO version. It's just a matter of redesigning the board underneath the switches without the limitations needed in the 80's to reduce the number of conducting leads. In the end they are just a switch, with an on position and an off position. Just like every other switch. Should be fairly trivial to design a board that would do the job, especially with how common and easy multi-layer designs and surface mount components are today. But heck, even better yet, Model F's were fully NKRO, so why not just use them? :p

Backlighting should be fairly easy. Just mold the Model M stems from a transparent plastic, and use double shot caps, and you should be able to either put a small LED soldered to the board somewhere on near the flipper, or attached to the top case lid, angled such that it points up the hole. Shouldn't be that tricky.

The modern Unicomp design is terrible. Fit and finish is ugly as all hell with big seams and things that don't look like they fit properly. I know, I have three of them. I understand they are a small company, operating on a limited budget, but damn, they are sitting on the holy grail of switch designs and treating it like nothing but a cash cow, only putting in half-hearted efforts at modernization. I wish they could get their act together, maybe even partner with another, larger peripheral maker with money, and just do some basic modern design.

[Myoth]

There is nothing about a Model M switch that precludes making a NKRO version. It's just a matter of redesigning the board underneath the switches without the limitations needed in the 80's to reduce the number of conducting leads. In the end they are just a switch, with an on position and an off position. Just like every other switch. Should be fairly trivial to design a board that would do the job, especially with how common and easy multi-layer designs and surface mount components are today. But heck, even better yet, Model F's were fully NKRO, so why not just use them? :p

Except the membrane .... which is what makes a Model M a Model M and not a Model F

Backlighting should be fairly easy. Just mold the Model M stems from a transparent plastic, and use double shot caps, and you should be able to either put a small LED soldered to the board somewhere on near the flipper, or attached to the top case lid, angled such that it points up the hole. Shouldn't be that tricky.

that's asking a lot from Unicomp, but yes it's possible to make them, although your description of putting a LED somewhere on the board is kind of sketchy.

the holy grail of switch designs

Let's agree to disagree.

[Findecanor]

There are some gaming keyboards using membrane with a trace per switch to a PCB with banks of diodes for achieving NKRO. NKRO over USB is still uncommon though: 6KRO still reigns, but should be enough for most people.

BTW. Flaretech switches have Cherry MX keycaps and dimensions but much less light-bleed with the same keycaps because each switch contains a light pipe of transparent plastic from the SMD LED on the PCB to the top of the switch, and this pipe is shrouded by black plastic.
I think that a switch manufacturer could design a Cherry MX clone switch that did the same.

[Hypersphere]

So, I just received my new Ducky One with MX Greens on Friday, and honestly, I'm a bit disappointed.
<snip>
I'm trying very hard to like it, but I don't think I do.
<snip>

What I don't:

• It's still a Cherry MX board.
  <snip>

You've hit the nail on the head. Cherry mx is still Cherry mx, no matter how you slice it. There are minor gradations within the Cherry and clone mx world, but in the end, you have a basic linear Hookean spring. Some have a grafted cam to provide a tactile bump, others have an added clicker for additional aural feedback, some have lube to smooth out the grittiness, and still others have rubber nubs for silencing. But the basic underlying mechanism is the same.

Your post struck a resonant chord because I came at the contempory mech world in much the same way that you did. I had been using a Model M for years, and for a variety of reasons, I wanted to see what a modern mechanical keyboard would be like. I also wanted something smaller, so my introduction to 21st century mech keyboards was a Filco Majestouch2 Ninja with Cherry mx blues. What a letdown! It sounded like rice krispies and felt like a toy compared to the Model M.

Thus began a quest that has turned into an obsession. However, I believe I have finally reached a steady state with some favorities, but I now enjoy restoration projects and rotating among various form factors, layouts, and switch types.

It took a while, but I finally discovered that my favorite form factor is 60%, best layout is HHKB, and best switch is Topre.

However, there is something to like about almost any keyboard. Aesthetically, there is no greater selection of keycaps available than for mx switches. I still keep mx boards in my collection for variety and as platforms for attractive keycap sets.

[Muirium]

Hypersphere and me feel much the same about MX. Fundamentally, it’s a linear design, with clicks and tactile bumps bolted on. Blues and browns and such just aren’t up to competing with IBM or Topre.

Yet, other switch families with their own clicks bolted on do a much better job. My own favourite non-IBM clicky is black NMB Space Invaders. They are really something. The feel isn’t a pale imitation of anything else, but rather its whole own distinctly umami chunk. Black Space Invaders are right up there in my top tips for anyone into clicky boards. Pity they’re just as vintage as IBMs! Naturally, blue Alps is worth its reputation, in my experience too.

You should also really give Topre a shot. I love Model F and Beamspring (wouldn’t waste my time with a Unicomp) yet Topre is my overall favourite. Not clicky at all, but the best and smoothest tactile I’ve encountered. They’re even still making them, in fullsize and backlit.

[mattlach]

Hypersphere and me feel much the same about MX. Fundamentally, it’s a linear design, with clicks and tactile bumps bolted on. Blues and browns and such just aren’t up to competing with IBM or Topre.

Yet, other switch families with their own clicks bolted on do a much better job. My own favourite non-IBM clicky is black NMB Space Invaders. They are really something. The feel isn’t a pale imitation of anything else, but rather its whole own distinctly umami chunk. Black Space Invaders are right up there in my top tips for anyone into clicky boards. Pity they’re just as vintage as IBMs! Naturally, blue Alps is worth its reputation, in my experience too.

You should also really give Topre a shot. I love Model F and Beamspring (wouldn’t waste my time with a Unicomp) yet Topre is my overall favourite. Not clicky at all, but the best and smoothest tactile I’ve encountered. They’re even still making them, in fullsize and backlit.

I did look into Topre before buying the Ducky One with MX Greens. In particular I thought the Realforce RGB was a nice balance between modern design and traditional switch. (I don't need or want the RGB disco lights, just some subtle backlighting, but I guess since it is RGB I could just set it to "white" and leave it there)

In the end after much reading, and listening to typing samples, I came to the conclusion that they probably weren't for me. The sound and my best estimate at feel (without actually using one) made me think they were just too close to rubber domes. It doesn't help that their slogan is "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber"...

Short of winning the lottery so I can afford my own passion project, and buying or contracting with Unicomp to design my own modern buckling spring board, I'm not quite sure what I can do.

I like products without compromises, but it seems like with keyboards I am going to have to compromise. Either a modern design, or a switch I like. Can't have both

[Chyros]

if you're dissapointed by Cherry MX just because of Cherry MX Greens, then you're not searching for the right thing from Cherry MX, their linears are far better than any other linear you can find, their tactiles are not the best, but they're nice, and their clickies are really hit or miss.

Yes, Cherry are generally considered linear at heart. Personally, my favourite Cherry switch is still blue though. I VERY much dispute that "their linears are far better than any other linear you can find", in fact I have no idea in what way they could possibly be considered better than some of its competitors.

[matt3o]

I still have to find a decent modern clicky switch. Everybody was praising Kahil box switch, but it is as much garbage as cherry MX. Actually at the end of the day MX blue (not even green) is probably the least crapton clicky (possibly ghetto green slightly better).

Typing on light clicky box switches is like typing of fried insects. The heavy ones are slightly better but still it happens way too often to activate the switch without the click.

I VERY much dispute that "their linears are far better than any other linear you can find"

who says that? maybe they mean to say from a materials/quality standpoint.

[Chyros]

I VERY much dispute that "their linears are far better than any other linear you can find"

who says that? maybe they mean to say from a materials/quality standpoint.

It's right in that quote .

And yeah, maybe they do, but in that case that'd be an indefensible position to take. Cherry were eventually forced to renew their MX tooling because their switches were SO BAD that rival competitors who were making switches cheaper than their own were producing clones with superior performance.

The truth is, they got lazy and complacent because of their long-standing monopoly, and now they're paying the price for letting others catch up as well as innovate past them.

[Chyros]

I still have to find a decent modern clicky switch. Everybody was praising Kahil box switch, but it is as much garbage as cherry MX. Actually at the end of the day MX blue (not even green) is probably the least crapton clicky (possibly ghetto green slightly better).

Typing on light clicky box switches is like typing of fried insects. The heavy ones are slightly better but still it happens way too often to activate the switch without the click.

Modern clickies are indeed a problem. I guess one of the problems is that old clicky switches were SO good that it's hard to match them nowadays. Also, clicky switches are from a ground-up, technical perspective the most complicated.

My money's probably with Matias Click, although I've heard many complaints about reliability from them. The feeling is solid IMO, but reliability issues aren't great, and the sound that that needless transparant PC housing makes is just such a waste. Not bad by a long shot, but not as good as it could, or should, have been, IMO.

[matt3o]

It's right in that quote .

sorry dude, still need my morning coffee, I thought there was a faction on the internet claiming cherry linear are da best. Yeah I don't see how they can be considered the best.

Anyway even though they are substantially meh switches, I still believe overall quality and materials are better.

My money's probably with Matias Click, although I've heard many complaints about reliability from them. The feeling is solid IMO, but reliability issues aren't great, and the sound that that needless transparant PC housing makes is just such a waste. Not bad by a long shot, but not as good as it could, or should, have been, IMO.

I don't like the wobbliness and the click is too close to the top, but you know there's one switch for each of us.

Also while old clicky are definitely better than anything on the market today, a model F (for example) is still a reverb nightmare (and don't even start with the floss mod, that is equivalent to rape)... so I don't know, maybe the click-clack feeling is just in our mind, a kind of nostalgia thing. Like retrogaming, you like it because it meant something to you, not because it has an actual value today.

[Chyros]

Also while old clicky are definitely better than anything on the market today, a model F (for example) is still a reverb nightmare (and don't even start with the floss mod, that is equivalent to rape)... so I don't know, maybe the click-clack feeling is just in our mind, a kind of nostalgia thing. Like retrogaming, you like it because it meant something to you, not because it has an actual value today.

Yeah, I know what you mean. This is very apparent from some of the comments I get on Youtube, as well - especially that zboard thing that I reviewed recently xD . And let's be honest, that's fine too - as you said, to each their own . Whatever makes one happy.

For sure, sound and feel are different axes on the switch spectrum. Some don't even give a toss about the sound, while for me it's very imporant (one of the reasons I like Alps so much). The Model F is especially polarising in the sound department - some love it, others hate it. I don't really hate it, but I like the M's sound better, myself. The feels though....

[stratokaster]

I don't really like typing on Cherry MX boards, but they're very decent switches if we also consider such things as longevity, resistance to dust and debris, complete absence of binding on off-center keypresses, and keycap stability. I think Space Invaders is the only other switch family comparable to Cherry MX in those secondary areas. But Space Invaders are very fragile: you can't really destroy a Cherry MX switch by removing its keycap, but it's entirely possible with Space Invaders.

That said, I don't feel that Cherry MX linears are especially good. My personal experience with MX Blacks has been nothing but horrible, and while I don't have anything against MX Reds, I'd rather use clones from Gateron or Kailh.

[Anakey]

I think also that some of the problems with clicky MX switches is that they do not have the right case for them. Back when keyboards were roomy metal or plastic the switches would have sounded better compared to the lumps of machined aluminium common today. I know there is a guy working on a modern version of the aristotle stem which is probably going to be the closest to the vintage clicks as can get and still maintain the mx compatibility.

[Chyros]

I think also that some of the problems with clicky MX switches is that they do not have the right case for them. Back when keyboards were roomy metal or plastic the switches would have sounded better compared to the lumps of machined aluminium common today.

I once used one of the old plastic Cherry G80s with MX blue for a typing sound comparison and I was accused of deliberately picking a bad-sounding keyboard to represent MX blue xD . Although I do agree with you. My best-sounding MX blue board is still probably that old G80, while the worst one is a Razer Blackwidow (which sounds almost as bad as an Outemu keyboard).

[Myoth]

if you're dissapointed by Cherry MX just because of Cherry MX Greens, then you're not searching for the right thing from Cherry MX, their linears are far better than any other linear you can find, their tactiles are not the best, but they're nice, and their clickies are really hit or miss.

Yes, Cherry are generally considered linear at heart. Personally, my favourite Cherry switch is still blue though. I VERY much dispute that "their linears are far better than any other linear you can find", in fact I have no idea in what way they could possibly be considered better than some of its competitors.

Except some rare and old ass switches and almost any SKCL apart from Grey, Cream and Brown (which are apparently on par), I don't why they (MX Black mind you) wouldn't.

[Muirium]

Linear MX is pretty scratchy for such a famed (to the extent of total monoculture) switch. Even those brand new silent reds in my Majestouch make a shuffle-shuffle sound up and down I don’t hear from other linears. I don’t know why, but Cherry’s own implementation of the design is still disappointingly scratchy even with the new tooling.

[derzemel]

Linear MX is pretty scratchy for such a famed (to the extent of total monoculture) switch. Even those brand new silent reds in my Majestouch make a shuffle-shuffle sound up and down I don’t hear from other linears. I don’t know why, but Cherry’s own implementation of the design is still disappointingly scratchy even with the new tooling.

I really do not understand how Cherry can still get this wrong. How come they made such good linear switches in the past, like vintage blacks/Nixies, and mess it up now, even when they are using "new tooling"?
I have a NIB ANSI 1800 and an almost new WISE, both with blacks, and they are very smooth.

Even Gateron and Kailh clones are way smoother than new "retooled" Cherry linear switches

[Chyros]

if you're dissapointed by Cherry MX just because of Cherry MX Greens, then you're not searching for the right thing from Cherry MX, their linears are far better than any other linear you can find, their tactiles are not the best, but they're nice, and their clickies are really hit or miss.

Yes, Cherry are generally considered linear at heart. Personally, my favourite Cherry switch is still blue though. I VERY much dispute that "their linears are far better than any other linear you can find", in fact I have no idea in what way they could possibly be considered better than some of its competitors.

Except some rare and old ass switches and almost any SKCL apart from Grey, Cream and Brown (which are apparently on par), I don't why they (MX Black mind you) wouldn't.

Wait, so you're basically saying that apart from everything that's better, they're by far the best linear switches you can find? :p

Without any arguments to support even that much? :p

[samuelcable]

Yes, Cherry are generally considered linear at heart. Personally, my favourite Cherry switch is still blue though. I VERY much dispute that "their linears are far better than any other linear you can find", in fact I have no idea in what way they could possibly be considered better than some of its competitors.

Except some rare and old ass switches and almost any SKCL apart from Grey, Cream and Brown (which are apparently on par), I don't why they (MX Black mind you) wouldn't.

Wait, so you're basically saying that apart from everything that's better, they're by far the best linear switches you can find? :p

Without any arguments to support even that much? :p

with alps you have to search far and hard to find a decent alps board, but with mx you can pick up a vintage 3000 or 1000 and have really good linears right off the bat, thats why i dont like alps in general, why search for some rare switch in a unsual hard to find board when i can get a nice smooth linear switch in the hugely mass produced vintage black market

[Myoth]

Yes, Cherry are generally considered linear at heart. Personally, my favourite Cherry switch is still blue though. I VERY much dispute that "their linears are far better than any other linear you can find", in fact I have no idea in what way they could possibly be considered better than some of its competitors.

Except some rare and old ass switches and almost any SKCL apart from Grey, Cream and Brown (which are apparently on par), I don't why they (MX Black mind you) wouldn't.

Wait, so you're basically saying that apart from everything that's better, they're by far the best linear switches you can find? :p

Without any arguments to support even that much? :p

Define better, do you how much of a pain these 3 (I would say 2 because Greys are found in a single board with more than like 5 of them, and even that board isn't enough to make a whole one out of them) switches are to find ? And how close people put MX Black to them ? (and don't make me say the SKCLs I mentioned are better)


It's not worth the hassle to pay 300usd for 85 switches and then be like "eh those 0.55usd switches are as good, not sure man" and if it is, you're clearly delusional.

[Chyros]

Except some rare and old ass switches and almost any SKCL apart from Grey, Cream and Brown (which are apparently on par), I don't why they (MX Black mind you) wouldn't.

Wait, so you're basically saying that apart from everything that's better, they're by far the best linear switches you can find? :p

Without any arguments to support even that much? :p

with alps you have to search far and hard to find a decent alps board, but with mx you can pick up a vintage 3000 or 1000 and have really good linears right off the bat, thats why i dont like alps in general, why search for some rare switch in a unsual hard to find board when i can get a nice smooth linear switch in the hugely mass produced vintage black market

I could argue I see a lot more Alps boards than G80-1000s pop up, but let's not dwell on details. For sure, I completely agree that availability is a factor to be considered. Some of the other switch types I personally consider to be better than linear Cherry MX are also hard to get hold of, sometimes much more so (and even then, not always easily convertible). Others, like the Light Strike and Flaretech switches, are currently available - much easier than vintage blacks (I'm not sure, but I don't think anyone here seems to even be defending modern MX linears?)

Still, while availability (or even low cost) is CONVENIENT, it's not actually a facet of the switch ITSELF. Sure, not everyone is willing to go through all the hassle I sometimes had to go through to get my hands on a particular board, but then again, I'm not as willing to compromise.

[Chyros]

Except some rare and old ass switches and almost any SKCL apart from Grey, Cream and Brown (which are apparently on par), I don't why they (MX Black mind you) wouldn't.

Wait, so you're basically saying that apart from everything that's better, they're by far the best linear switches you can find? :p

Without any arguments to support even that much? :p

Define better, do you how much of a pain these 3 (I would say 2 because Greys are found in a single board with more than like 5 of them, and even that board isn't enough to make a whole one out of them) switches are to find ? And how close people put MX Black to them ? (and don't make me say the SKCLs I mentioned are better)


It's not worth the hassle to pay 300usd for 85 switches and then be like "eh those 0.55usd switches are as good, not sure man" and if it is, you're clearly delusional.

A great keyboard is not worth $300, and/or months, perhaps even years of searching, to YOU perhaps. To others, it clearly is. Again, this is not a factor of the switch itself, just the switch market (which is cheangeable - the switch design is not). For someone who is lazy, of course convenience will play a major factor. For myself, being a collector, it's almost irrelevant; again, it's where one's priorities lie.

Now, of course, which switch is best for you is always a personal thing. And I'd say that whether you prefer MX linear or even the "best" SKCL is more or less entirely due to personal preference; the two aren't even THAT dissimilar from a technical perspective. I haven't even tried any of those particular SKCL switches you mentioned (well, in spacebars, but you get the point). And I'm the very LAST guy who'd go around nuancing every little detail people say; something that's probably obvious from the bluntness in my videos (perhaps it's Dutch directness - nuance people can shampoo my crotch).

But to outright say Cherry MX linears are "far superior" to switch designs such as Hall effect, capacitive, optoelectric etc. which offer MANY advantages over contact-based switches such as Cherry MX from a cold-hard-fact-based technical perspective, without offering any arguments on what about the Cherry MX design makes them so much better that they so clearly surpass these other, technologically superior switches, just sounds like sheer lunacy :p .

[samuelcable]

such as Hall effect

Don't know mate, mx switches actually bring able to be used on a modern computer is a pretty nice perk

[Chyros]

such as Hall effect

Don't know mate, mx switches actually bring able to be used on a modern computer is a pretty nice perk

I agree, but that has nothing to do with the actual switches.

[Lbibass]

It's not that hard to design a pcb and a footprint.

[seebart]

So, I just received my new Ducky One with MX Greens on Friday, and honestly, I'm a bit disappointed.

Hapens, at least you know now.