December Shocker: Mu Votes Cherry!

[Muirium]

So, it was as chilly as a witch's nip on this here December day. Frosty pavements, cloudy breath, and chattering teeth all about, like. A fine day for an election, according to Tory game theory at least. So here we were, all at it, once again. You know me, I like a lazy postal ballot, but I forgot to apply for it, so there I am in line with the fine proles of this bougie burgh, voting in a schoolhouse. And I'm confronted with this choice on my ballot paper:

• BALLANTINE, David Craig – Brexit Party
• BROWN, Mev – Social Democratic Party Scotland
• CHERRY, Joanna Catherine – Scottish National Party (SNP)
• COOKE, Sophie – Scottish Labour Party
• INGLIS, Tom – Scottish Liberal Democrats
• LAIDLAW, Callum Arron – Scottish Conservative and Unionist
• PARKER, Ben – Scottish Green Party

Don't let the "Scottish" this and "Scottish" that fool you. Only the Greens and SNP are based here, the others are merely local branch offices of London outfits. Well, except Nige Farage's Brexit Party which doesn't even bother with that false pretense.

Anyway, there I was, pencil in hand when it struck me: oh the irony, it can only be Cherry for me!

Thank goodness the Tory wasn't called Topre…

Joanna Cherry is actually a pretty significant character here of late. She led the victorious court case which suspended Boris Johnson's suspension of parliament, which would have forced through a crash out Brexit back on Halloween. She's someone you want on your side when shit hits the courts! And boy, are we there now…

Oh, just after I'd done my little X and strolled off out the building, I heard children singing. They get the day off when their school's used as a polling station. Their song went like this:

Hey hey!
Ho ho!
Boris Johnson's got to go!

We can only hope. Which is precisely the problem for us in Scotland. We never voted for any of this in the first place. Not even close.

[webwit]

We never voted for any of this in the first place.

Of course you did. The Scottish voted for this in 2014 when they opted to bow to their English masters, because money (pensions and such). Now bow.

[Muirium]

Anyway, that, believe it or not, is precisely the line the London based parties are sticking to in Scotland. The Tories have campaigned on it exclusively!

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/180 ... -indyref2/

Their literature doesn't even mention Brexit up here. Why bother? "Put that Nicola back in her place!"

Independence is tricky. It's become the wedge issue in Scotland, instead of Brexit like it is in England. Fortunately, try as the Tories might, the two are inescapably linked. Scotland's going to be hard to handle!

[webwit]

I don't blame you because you voted yes, but democratically the Scottish voted against independence, and then you can't complain when the vote of the rest of the Empire is different on occasions on what your little province by choice prefers.

Ah the Scottish. I still can't believe Mel Gibson died for that bunch. trololol

[Muirium]

Bloodbath expected:



Note there are only 59 seats in Scotland. The SNP's forecast to take very almost the whole lot. The Scots aren't taking this one lightly!

[Findecanor]

Awesome that the final result will be presented on Friday the 13th ...

[Muirium]

Wholly appropriate! We're in for a nightmare. And a fight!

[Muirium]

Cherry won.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18099 ... ocracy-pm/

As did the SNP, far and wide across Scotland.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/s ... mean-union

We’re going for Indy!

"Scotland's future must be in Scotland's hands".

"This is not about asking Boris Johnson or any other Westminster politician for permission," Sturgeon said.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18100 ... p-victory/

Or as my formerly No voting brother put it today:

Two sovereign countries went into the Union. Two sovereign countries will come out of it.

The union being the United Kingdom, formed by a treaty between Scotland and England in 1707. Its time has come.

[andrewjoy]

Do you see nothing contradictory between wanting to remain in the EU(you wont be able to remain in it , you will have to apply , and spain WILL veto you till the cows come home) but wanting to leave the UK? Both are a political union, both will take power and your status as a nation away.

Both a "peoples vote" and an "indyref2" should not (and will not) happen, you cannot just continue to vote until you get the correct result. Then again that is how the EU does things.

[swampangel]

Do you see nothing contradictory between wanting to remain in the EU(you wont be able to remain in it , you will have to apply , and spain WILL veto you till the cows come home) but wanting to leave the UK? Both are a political union, both will take power and your status as a nation away.

It's not a contradiction to believe one political union is more aligned with your interests or has more to offer than another.

A post-brexit UK will still have international agreements that set constraints on local regulations, industry etc, just like the rest of the world.

[andrewjoy]

It's not a contradiction to believe one political union is more aligned with your interests or has more to offer than another.

But i just don't see how a so called "nationalist" party can want to give its power and independence away, it is a contradiction. If the SNP wanted Scotland to be independent of both the UK and EU i could understand it.

Its about power, not about nationalism. Or just about , we are not nationalists , we just hate Westminster.

Then again if they went full nationalist who would pay for all the sweet ass stuff Scotland get, they certainly could not pay for it themselves.

[Muirium]

Let’s just put it this way: what would you in England have felt if the EU said no, you couldn’t have a referendum?

The EU is not a unified state. It’s a trading organisation, on a slow and winding path to federalism. But the U.K. is a different beast.

That’s the one we want out of. The one where there’s no such thing as veto, let alone EU style qualified majority voting. Only eternal majority rule. Which is fine when you’re 80%+ of the population. But looks something else entirely when you’re the 5 million, not the 50.

This thing’s over. We’re not going through the un-consensual London rule, and downright abuse, of the Thatcher years again. We’re going our own way. Which is our choice to make. As it ought to be for anyone.

[Findecanor]

The EU is not a unified state. It’s a trading organisation, on a slow and winding path to federalism.

Indeed. I think the amount of power that the EU has over any member state is overrated.

I am mostly just disappointed with the UK. By leaving, they are abandoning the issues that UK's EU-parliamentarians had stood for, making some issues (such as being against federalism) harder for those who had shared the same values.

[andrewjoy]

Let’s just put it this way: what would you in England have felt if the EU said no, you couldn’t have a referendum?

You had your indy' ref, you lost .

I am mostly just disappointed with the UK. By leaving, they are abandoning the issues that UK's EU-parliamentarians had stood for, making some issues (such as being against federalism) harder for those who had shared the same values.

Your all welcome to leave the EU too , i recommend you do.

[webwit]

It’s a trading organisation, on a slow and winding path to federalism. But the U.K. is a different beast.

I think you are underestimating the current power and the speed of the path, but in any case, now you're arguing short term. In the long term, if the UK is a beast now, the EU will become that beast but bigger, as the path is clearly unfolding.

So your choice is this:

Do you want to be ruled by England? (ffs)
or
Do you want to be ruled by the French and Germans? (ffs)

[andrewjoy]

I think you are underestimating the current power and the speed of the path, but in any case, now you're arguing short term. In the long term, if the UK is a beast now, the EU will become that beast but bigger, as the path is clearly unfolding.

So your choice is this:

Do you want to be ruled by England? (ffs)
or
Do you want to be ruled by the French and Germans? (ffs)

absolutely correct!

But just FYI , every country the English has ruled over is better than we found it , every country the EU has ruled over .......... well ask Greece.

[swampangel]

But just FYI , every country the English has ruled over is better than we found it

yikes

[Muirium]

Exactly. That's not Andy being purposefully crass. Many / most of the English public are raised to believe that. Along with the notion that Scots are all heroin junkies and beggars, yet who somehow simultaneously live like kings, because England bends over backwards to shower us with inexplicable charity. So I don't blame him for his Alan Partridge level self awareness! Besides, think of how much better off he'll be once we go!

The "nationalism" we're into here in Scotland is just about our own choice and direction, not any kind of vengeance or fear of outsiders. There's nothing blood & soil or xenophobic about it. We just need our own government, now the one we share with England is so wildly unlike us.

As for Europe: I'm not fussed if an independent Scotland entered the EU then left sometime later. The important, indeed the vital thing, is that we get to make that decision and can act on it ourselves. In 2016, when asked, we voted 2:1 to remain, and yet here on out we go! If someday Europe heads off at a tangent from us the way the UK has, we can make new relationships on our own terms. But it's got to be our choice. Why should a nation be a prisoner?

Britain's exit from Europe (still to even get started!) is an egregious mess. Why? Because Westminster never decided what it actually wanted. "Canada or Norway?" "Trade deal with America or peace in Northern Ireland?" "NHS or Trump?" Scotland only has that problem so long as we stay hitched to UK. We're actually pretty good at settling on perfectly boring social democratic policies ourselves, up here. We're plenty equipped to do so with and in Europe, soon enough.

[purdobol]

It’s a trading organisation, on a slow and winding path to federalism. But the U.K. is a different beast.

I think you are underestimating the current power and the speed of the path, but in any case, now you're arguing short term. In the long term, if the UK is a beast now, the EU will become that beast but bigger, as the path is clearly unfolding.

So your choice is this:

Do you want to be ruled by England? (ffs)
or
Do you want to be ruled by the French and Germans? (ffs)

Hence the pushback from "rogue" EU countries.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for federalisation of the union, which is unavoidable in my opinion. But slow organic one, not forced.
And somehow can't shake the feeling, that some over ambitious bureaucrats in Brussels want to speed up the process. Just so they can be remembered as founding fathers of Europe. Intentions != results.

[scottc]

But just FYI , every country the English has ruled over is better than we found it

[Muirium]

What’s a famine or few between good friends, eh? And did the Boers ever thank us for the free lodging in the concentration camps we made for them? No they did not, the ungrateful bastards. The nerve of all these people, the world over! Always griping and whining about the past. As if we’d ever do that.

Anyway, so long as no one mentions the opium wars when the Chinese come round for trade talks, I think we can get away with it.

[grasshopper]

Let’s just put it this way: what would you in England have felt if the EU said no, you couldn’t have a referendum?

You sound almost as disingenuous as Nicola Sturgeon.

Just imagine if the 2016 Brexit vote had gone the other way, and Britain had voted to remain in the EU by a significant margin. And then a few years later, the UK government had said to the EU we're going to keep having new Brexit referendums every few years just to make sure the British people haven't "changed their minds".

Do you honestly think the EU would accept the disruption arising from that? Of course they wouldn't. They'd put their foot down and insist that Britain can only remain in the EU if the British Government agrees to limit the frequency of future brexit referendums to once in a generation.

[abrahamstechnology]

The EU cursed us all the way in the US with ROHS and Article 13.
Screw them. If I lived in the UK I'd vote to leave.