Reproducing Alps Keycaps (IC)

[treeleaf64]

collective bargaining is way easier to come by than benevolent rick folks

In the old days if you couldn't swing it yourself you used investors (and cut them in on the profits, of course). Profit with no risk sounds too good to be true, so I guess it has to work. Except when the deal goes bad, that is, and guess who loses then?

Yes, I think that's the best way to do it. Unfortunately, we have too small of a market for anyone to be interested in such a thing.

[treeleaf64]

Because moulds are expensive. My project only needs 3-4 moulds while new keycap tooling will need anywhere from 13-100+ different moulds depending on what kind of printing method is being used.

Don't forget that Tai-Hao more than likely has all their old keycap moulds from the Alps glory days.

I did email Tai-Hao before regarding this. They don't have the molds or tooling to their old TH and other cap styles, unfortunately.

Give or take, I can count around 16 molds for dyesubs that'd cover general ISO/ANSI layouts. Yes, for doubleshots, it would be more difficult; PBT dyesubs would require far fewer molds. When it comes to OG keycaps, PBT is often very highly-regarded and in demand more than ABS doubleshots due to the resilience of the material against shine, yellowing, and its dry feel.

As he says, he's planning on making dyesubs, which means it won't be as complicated as it would be with doubleshots.

That said, who knows if either your endeavor or his will get off the ground. Let's hope.

That's too bad. That means we can't use SP or Tai-Hao, which are the two main manufacturers of Alps caps. I don't think this project will be able to get off the ground after all. Thick keycaps won't be a reality until someone manages to get molds for them. I doubt we would reach the amount even if everyone interested pooled their money.

[Polecat]

Yes, I think that's the best way to do it. Unfortunately, we have too small of a market for anyone to be interested in such a thing.

Understood, and that's probably the reason nobody has made them up already. It's a real shame that the old molds aren't still available.

[obfuscated]

There are the "XDA ALPS", I don't know who is producing them, but it might be available for business.
They seem to be thick or at least not thin.

[treeleaf64]

There are the "XDA ALPS", I don't know who is producing them, but it might be available for business.
They seem to be thick or at least not thin.

Those are pretty thick! Unfortunately, getting those in another profile will require new molds.

[AlterEgo]

Given that Tai-Hao has double-shot Alps molds they are using for their ABS keycaps, why couldn't they make double-shot PBT caps with those? Are the molds non-interchangeable for different plastics?

Speaking personally, any OEM PBT Alps keycaps that include a modern bottom row would be a win.

[abrahamstechnology]

Given that Tai-Hao has double-shot Alps molds they are using for their ABS keycaps, why couldn't they make double-shot PBT caps with those? Are the molds non-interchangeable for different plastics?

Speaking personally, any OEM PBT Alps keycaps that include a modern bottom row would be a win.

From my project I found out that each mold has to be specially designed for a specific type of plastic, because different plastics expand and contract differently.

[Findecanor]

Are the molds non-interchangeable for different plastics?

Adapting an injection-mould and process for ABS to work for PBT is not trivial, no.
The hot plastic needs to be cooled before the mould is opened, and that is done by flowing coolant through ducts inside the mould. PBT and ABS are melted and cooled at different temperatures, and with different timing.
PBT also tends to shrink more, either way, so the result will never be the same.
When Signature Plastics started making keycaps for Cherry MX in PBT using existing moulds for ABS, there were several artefacts in the keys: keys were more or less warped, with longer keys event bent somewhat ("banana-shaped"). They also sat very tightly on the MX switch stems.

[Chyros]

Given that Tai-Hao has double-shot Alps molds they are using for their ABS keycaps, why couldn't they make double-shot PBT caps with those? Are the molds non-interchangeable for different plastics?

Speaking personally, any OEM PBT Alps keycaps that include a modern bottom row would be a win.

It's actually the fact that adapting moulding TO using different plastics requires a certain expertise which made them so hard to make or get hold of for a long time .

[Elrick]

Given that Tai-Hao has double-shot Alps molds they are using for their ABS keycaps, why couldn't they make double-shot PBT caps with those? Are the molds non-interchangeable for different plastics?

Speaking personally, any OEM PBT Alps keycaps that include a modern bottom row would be a win.

It's actually the fact that adapting moulding TO using different plastics requires a certain expertise which made them so hard to make or get hold of for a long time .

When it comes to the Chinese it's no problem at all. Forget about the West ever producing anything but GMK or SA styles. Nothing wrong with it but making actual Alps style fittings is best left to the Far East and they will gauge how much interest there is, in a now forgotten switch. The Alps users are receding every year not increasing in numbers.

Besides with all the new Cherry style of switches coming out of China, I'm afraid the Alps is really being put down permanently because the clicky or tactile feel, has been successfully appropriated by these new switches from kailh and other designers.

[treeleaf64]

Thanks Elrick. MX is a flawed design, though, and there's only so long before people start thinking about if there could be something better than MX switches. You can only go so far with such a design.

[TheInverseKey]

Given that Tai-Hao has double-shot Alps molds they are using for their ABS keycaps, why couldn't they make double-shot PBT caps with those? Are the molds non-interchangeable for different plastics?

Speaking personally, any OEM PBT Alps keycaps that include a modern bottom row would be a win.

It's actually the fact that adapting moulding TO using different plastics requires a certain expertise which made them so hard to make or get hold of for a long time .

When it comes to the Chinese it's no problem at all. Forget about the West ever producing anything but GMK or SA styles. Nothing wrong with it but making actual Alps style fittings is best left to the Far East and they will gauge how much interest there is, in a now forgotten switch. The Alps users are receding every year not increasing in numbers.

Besides with all the new Cherry style of switches coming out of China, I'm afraid the Alps is really being put down permanently because the clicky or tactile feel, has been successfully appropriated by these new switches from kailh and other designers.

I agree with you to a point, thing is that Alps switches will always have a unique sound due to the way that they operate and I don't think that MX based switches will ever get there in the future.

[SneakyRobb]

I agree with you to a point, thing is that Alps switches will always have a unique sound due to the way that they operate and I don't think that MX based switches will ever get there in the future.

Could we make them get there I wonder.

If I recall the simplified alps patent references the cherry mx patent when talking about the contact mechanism. Obviously as a simpler way to do the contacts vs the alps plastic riveted contact module. They took a simple idea and made their switches not as good.

What if we consider cherry mx to be the "simplified alps" of cherry. Is there a proto-mx switch that has a contact module? What if we work forbackwards and make a complicated mx? A mx design with a switchplate, lubricated smooth slider and such.

[zrrion]

Unlike ALPS, who's simplified SKCL/M attempts all made the switch worse, every time Cherry simplified their keyboard switch design they made it better. The major difference is that Cherry was mostly miniaturizing their switches but that results in a switch that really can't learn anything from its predecessors. M9 is a decent enough switch in my opinion, and their best design apart from MX but it doesn't offer any significant design changes that could be modified for use in MX. MY is the only one that is really all that different but that isn't a good lead either. Maybe Viola will have something, but I do not have high hopes there either.

[Elrick]

Thanks Elrick. MX is a flawed design, though, and there's only so long before people start thinking about if there could be something better than MX switches. You can only go so far with such a design.

Indeed but that switch hasn't arisen yet onto the retail market.

Keep hoping there will be something better than Cherry MX and that it would be cheap as well. I sure as hell don't want to be spending $100.00+USD on a single switch design, to fill an entire 104 key keyboard.

Even if I won first division Lotto, I still won't pay that required amount for any full sized keyboard, it then becomes a matter of principal in spending a certain amount of something that truly pleases the fingers, when typing.

There will always be a limit on that feeling...... for myself .

[Chyros]

Unlike ALPS, who's simplified SKCL/M attempts all made the switch worse, every time Cherry simplified their keyboard switch design they made it better. The major difference is that Cherry was mostly miniaturizing their switches but that results in a switch that really can't learn anything from its predecessors. M9 is a decent enough switch in my opinion, and their best design apart from MX but it doesn't offer any significant design changes that could be modified for use in MX. MY is the only one that is really all that different but that isn't a good lead either. Maybe Viola will have something, but I do not have high hopes there either.

SKBM was clearly not designed to be a BETTER switch, just a cheaper one :p . I don't think Cherry ever actually really simplified their designs like that so this isn't a very valid comparison IMO.

Also, M9 sucks IMO, do you actually like it? xD

[treeleaf64]

Lol. I think to get this project underway, we will need to
1) raise 100k for thick keycap molds
2) make Zeal sort of switches, where they have Alps parts but in MX stem format.

[zrrion]

Also, M9 sucks IMO, do you actually like it? xD

Look, its no SKCC or anything, but they're okay. MX definitely has them beat as far as linears go. M9 is the best cherry switch that is compatible with pre-MX Cherry caps. M7 is way worse but the caps it comes with are very nice.

[E3E]

Lol. I think to get this project underway, we will need to
1) raise 100k for thick keycap molds
2) make Zeal sort of switches, where they have Alps parts but in MX stem format.

this is why we need to stop humouring all these wide eyed idea guys with zero credentials and even less experience that keep coming

Yep.

[treeleaf64]

Lol. I think to get this project underway, we will need to
1) raise 100k for thick keycap molds
2) make Zeal sort of switches, where they have Alps parts but in MX stem format.

this is why we need to stop humouring all these wide eyed idea guys with zero credentials and even less experience that keep coming

Yep.

Would you like to offer a better solution? This thread wasn't meant to give people keycaps, it was meant to see if there was a possible market... and if there was, we would talk with manufacturers to see if they could produce such a product. They weren't able to.

I was never after your money, I want Alps keycaps just as much as you guys do. I gave up because there is nothing else we can do anymore - Alps is fading into obscurity, and nobody wants to spend money to make keycaps for them.

Now, you accuse me of being an uninformed, "wide eyed idea guy". I'm not happy.

[zrrion]

Would you like to offer a better solution?

I'm not trying to be harsh here, just clear and honest; you aren't offering solutions yourself.
People have thought about making new caps and new switches before and most of the people who actually end up making caps and switches do it not by posting an idea thread with no products, but by doing the work to make some kind of prototype and then asking for feedback.

If you want to suggest manufacturing solutions that no one has thought of yet, if you have some business contacts that no one else has, or if you have the skills to make prototypes yourself, then please share that stuff with people. I really enjoy threads about theoretical keyboard ventures, but "does anyone want cool caps?" is way less likely to result in an actual cap set than "I have a 3D printed/resin molded a set of keycaps, can I get some feedback?"

tl;dr: talk is cheap

[E3E]

You have to understand. There are people that legitimately want new, high quality Alps caps.

What it feels like now is essentially a bait and switch. Not cool.

If you want to make an MX switch with an Alps click leaf, which ProWorld did first, by the way, then create a thread about that. I mean, I can't say I understand why you would though when Zeal seems to have already recreated it himself.

That isn't Alps though, and isn't a solution to those who actually care about Alps. Speaking for myself, I don't care if someone makes repro or MX-mount Alps hybrid switches. I'd be more interested in Alps caps and adapter kits to flesh out cool cap profiles Alps had that weren't in ANSI.

That will likely never happen as it'd require tons of new molds to match the many unique Alps profiles that exist.

I agree with zrrion as well. A proof of concept, something to show your credibility beyond just bringing about an idea Alps fans have all considered before would be taken more seriously.

[Polecat]

Is 3D printing of quality keycaps possible, or is it likely to be in the future? It's a subject I know nothing about, just throwing it out there as another possibe way to get the caps we'd like to have..

[zrrion]

quality, yes, high quality, not as far as I am aware. For blank caps you can get decent results, but legends are difficult. Lots of those weird ergo boards people make use 3d printed caps to accommodate the non-standard layouts but they use blanks anyway, so the legend issue doesn't impede them

[treeleaf64]

Sorry guys.