F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[wobbled]

I have updated the organization of the new www.modelfkeyboards.com/manual page with sections that are by default minimized and expand when you click on it ("toggle switch"). This way one does not need to scroll through each section to get to the right one.

Will you update the $4000 asking price for your SSK?

[Ellipse]

There was a note on space bar compatibility over on reddit that I wanted to post over here:

Unicomp offers two 5.5U space bars, one known as "pre-2013" and one known as 2013 onwards. Only one is compatible with the Model F keyboard (don't remember which!). They are physically different designs.

https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/graphics ... -25-13.pdf

The Unicomp 7U space bars I believe are the same as Model M space bars and are compatible with the new Model F Keyboards.

Every new Model F has a pad so you can split the longer space bar to use the shorter space bar if you have a spare barrel and flipper (I also sell the shorter space bars - just order one unit of "Extra keys").


wobbled I'd appreciate your discussion on Model M keyboard pricing outside of the new Model F keyboard topic. I recommend the Great/Interesting Finds thread where there is a good discussion going on many items.

[wobbled]

There was a note on space bar compatibility over on reddit that I wanted to post over here:

Unicomp offers two 5.5U space bars, one known as "pre-2013" and one known as 2013 onwards. Only one is compatible with the Model F keyboard (don't remember which!). They are physically different designs.

https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/graphics ... -25-13.pdf

The Unicomp 7U space bars I believe are the same as Model M space bars and are compatible with the new Model F Keyboards.

Every new Model F has a pad so you can split the longer space bar to use the shorter space bar if you have a spare barrel and flipper (I also sell the shorter space bars - just order one unit of "Extra keys").


wobbled I'd appreciate your discussion on Model M keyboard pricing outside of the new Model F keyboard topic. I recommend the Great/Interesting Finds thread where there is a good discussion going on many items.

And I'd appreciate you not trying to scam or rip off the entire community, these NIB SSK's have sold for $600. Your asking price of $4000 is disgusting, and as this is listed on the website ModelFKeyboards, I thought I'd mention it in its associated thread. I also do not consider it a Great find, rather a complete joke.
Stop the greed.

[Gurbsordidity]

And I'd appreciate you not trying to scam or rip off the entire community, these NIB SSK's have sold for $600. Your asking price of $4000 is disgusting, and as this is listed on the website ModelFKeyboards, I thought I'd mention it in its associated thread. I also do not consider it a Great find, rather a complete joke.
Stop the greed.

Publicly shaming ellipse as a negotiating tactic to improve one's buying price for an antique would not only be tangential to this thread's topic, but it would also be an abuse of this thread's audience for personal gain. Please start a new thread elsewhere, as ellipse suggested.

[wobbled]

And I'd appreciate you not trying to scam or rip off the entire community, these NIB SSK's have sold for $600. Your asking price of $4000 is disgusting, and as this is listed on the website ModelFKeyboards, I thought I'd mention it in its associated thread. I also do not consider it a Great find, rather a complete joke.
Stop the greed.

Publicly shaming ellipse as a negotiating tactic to improve one's buying price for an antique would not only be tangential to this thread's topic, but it would also be an abuse of this thread's audience for personal gain. Please start a new thread elsewhere, as ellipse suggested.

This isn't negotiating, as I'm not looking to buy it. It simply caught my eye as disgusting greed and so I felt like I'd approach him about it on a forum where free speech, last time I checked, was perfectly fine.
Also the term 'antique' is incorrect as that would suggest the item is over 100 years old, perhaps review your terminology before trying to sound smart? It's rather embarrassing.
Feel free to make suggestions, but the answer is no. I will continue to expose greed where and when I see fit as it is slowly but surely destroying this hobby.
I also find it hilarious that you made your account less than an hour ago, and your first post is defending greed. Could it be an alt account I wonder...
Embarrassing again.

[Gurbsordidity]

This isn't negotiating, as I'm not looking to buy it. It simply caught my eye as disgusting greed and so I felt like I'd approach him about it on a forum where free speech, last time I checked, was perfectly fine.
Also the term 'antique' is incorrect as that would suggest the item is over 100 years old, perhaps review your terminology before trying to sound smart? It's rather embarrassing.
Feel free to make suggestions, but the answer is no. I will continue to expose greed where and when I see fit as it is slowly but surely destroying this hobby.
I also find it hilarious that you made your account less than an hour ago, and your first post is defending greed. Could it be an alt account I wonder...
Embarrassing again.

Then you insist on crusading here. Your intent is transparent. I've said my peace.

[darkcruix]

Wobbled thinks, asking $4000 for a SSK NIB is greed, others have a different opinion. Many have listen to both sides and we should acknowledge it.
As Wobbled isn't going to buy it anyway and wants to make a point - it is ok to express it. Ellipse on the other hand still has the right to ask for any price he likes. The market regulates itself as long as there is a price out there. If nobody wants to pay it, the sellers sit on the product. Some who want to make quick money, will sell it at a lower price and it normalizes at lower levels. If many are willing to pay the higher price, it normalizes at higher levels.

[Hypersphere]

I agree with darkcruix. Both free speech and free enterprise ought to be supported here. Moreover, I would also make a plea for exercising civility -- i.e., common courtesy.

[Sp33ls]

wobble's "passion" regarding the pricing of an item can really only be seen as an serious interest in purchasing said item (at a lower price), or possibly jealousy..? If someone wants to post chewed bubblegum online for $10,000, so be it. That's the beauty of a free market. It responds according to the demand of said product. If you found a NIB SSK in your attic, you'd probably hope to maximize your profits as well. If you weren't... then your "charity" can also be viewed as "greedy". That fuzzy, warm feeling we get when we donate/give to others -- that's also a dopamine hit, same as when you see great returns on your investments. It's just as selfish to want to feel that you're in a better position than someone else in order to give something away to better their position. It may be more ethical and possibly beneficial, but you seeking out that feeling is still a selfish act (like greed). What I'm saying is that I don't feel you're motives are truly innocent either.

I'm all for standing up against greed when it impacts the health and wellness of others. But, in the collectibles market..? Really? That's the point of a collectible. Looking at Pokemon and Sports cards, for example, it seems their growth in price have led to a resurgence in those hobbies rather than their demise.

I'm all for free speech, so long as it's common knowledge that your (as well as my) opinion are subject to debate, and not simply entitled to get what one wants because of one's feelings. You're not exposing anything... If it's a bad value, the keyboard won't sell. If it does, then clearly it was "worth" that price.

You're welcome to run your own vintage keyboard shop, and undercut his pricing all you want. That's the free market. If available, people will buy the same product at a cheaper price.

TL;Dr - you're welcome to express your opinion, but your tone should be more respectful and viewed as an anecdotal, potential customer data point rather than "the righteous truth" because it's none of your business how someone else runs their business.

Btw, the amount of time spent into this project warrants fair compensation, IMO. I hope it sells for a great price simply out of empathy for making this labor of love a reality.

Typed on phone, sorry for poor English

[gianni]

Sincerely a 4000 USD price reflects a really bad light on him and on his whole business. I would never purchase something from a website that offers something at an outrageous price, because this makes you immediately think that everything in that shop is overpriced and that scams are around the corner.

When you visit a real long running shop, you know that there's an implicit agreement that the items are priced honestly, with a respectable margin. When this pact is broken, the trust disappears immediately.

Obviously we're talking about a guy that we respect and that has done a great service to the community, but if I didn't know him, I'd immediately run away from his virtual shop.

The same guys that defend this absurd pricing, tomorrow will talk about greedy bay and the absurd prices of beamsprings.

[kbdfr]

[…] That fuzzy, warm feeling we get when we donate/give to others -- that's also a dopamine hit, same as when you see great returns on your investments. It's just as selfish to want to feel that you're in a better position than someone else in order to give something away to better their position. It may be more ethical and possibly beneficial, but you seeking out that feeling is still a selfish act (like greed). […]

Sounds like objective science, is complete nonsense.
Or do you consider Maximilian Kolbe’s death, as you put it, "a selfish act (like greed)"?

Spoiler:

He was a catholic priest who in 1941 in Auschwitz, when 10 prisoners were picked to die in retaliation for one detainee escaping, volunteered to take the place of one of them, who had a family.

By the way, I have both donated/given to others and made great deals here on DT.
I can assure you, the feelings generated are completely different

[wobbled]

wobble's "passion" regarding the pricing of an item can really only be seen as an serious interest in purchasing said item (at a lower price), or possibly jealousy..? If someone wants to post chewed bubblegum online for $10,000, so be it. That's the beauty of a free market. It responds according to the demand of said product. If you found a NIB SSK in your attic, you'd probably hope to maximize your profits as well. If you weren't... then your "charity" can also be viewed as "greedy". That fuzzy, warm feeling we get when we donate/give to others -- that's also a dopamine hit, same as when you see great returns on your investments. It's just as selfish to want to feel that you're in a better position than someone else in order to give something away to better their position. It may be more ethical and possibly beneficial, but you seeking out that feeling is still a selfish act (like greed). What I'm saying is that I don't feel you're motives are truly innocent either.

I'm all for standing up against greed when it impacts the health and wellness of others. But, in the collectibles market..? Really? That's the point of a collectible. Looking at Pokemon and Sports cards, for example, it seems their growth in price have led to a resurgence in those hobbies rather than their demise.

I'm all for free speech, so long as it's common knowledge that your (as well as my) opinion are subject to debate, and not simply entitled to get what one wants because of one's feelings. You're not exposing anything... If it's a bad value, the keyboard won't sell. If it does, then clearly it was "worth" that price.

You're welcome to run your own vintage keyboard shop, and undercut his pricing all you want. That's the free market. If available, people will buy the same product at a cheaper price.

TL;Dr - you're welcome to express your opinion, but your tone should be more respectful and viewed as an anecdotal, potential customer data point rather than "the righteous truth" because it's none of your business how someone else runs their business.

Btw, the amount of time spent into this project warrants fair compensation, IMO. I hope it sells for a great price simply out of empathy for making this labor of love a reality.

Typed on phone, sorry for poor English

You can see it however the fuck you want lad, the fact is I've seen NIB SSK's live on ebay for a maximum of $600. Some of these had even been opened up and bolt modded to ensure they pretty much last forever.
How exactly can you boil down my thoughts to jealousy? I decided not to buy new SSKs in the past because I thought the asking price was a bit on the high end for something not industrial and not a model f.
When I saw the $4000 asking price for a basic bitch blue label new ssk I knew I had to raise it with ellipse. Despite how much respect I have for the guy for producing one of the best projects that has ever come from deskthority, there is no excuse for pure fucking greed on this level.
Feel free to continue to defend this type of behaviour, but when no one gives a shit about this hobby anymore because it isn't feasible, you'll have yourself to blame.

[jwegman]

@wobbled

You've said your piece, multiple times. Stating it again isn't going to further contribute anything for this particular thread topic (of which I keenly have specific interest).

Please consider starting a new thread (in which I can blissfully ignore "whatever" is flung around there).

Regardless, it belongs not here. Please respect that.

[Sp33ls]

Sounds like objective science, is complete nonsense.
Or do you consider Maximilian Kolbe’s death, as you put it, "a selfish act (like greed)"?

Spoiler:

He was a catholic priest who in 1941 in Auschwitz, when 10 prisoners were picked to die in retaliation for one detainee escaping, volunteered to take the place of one of them, who had a family.

By the way, I have both donated/given to others and made great deals here on DT.
I can assure you, the feelings generated are completely different

I feel motivated to see if any respectable psychologists have done a deep dive into this idea of why are we motivated to do "good" for others. Evolutionists would probably say something along the lines of there being a biological advantage to being viewed favorably by your society as it improves your odds of survival. Same with sacrificing one's life for the survival of their family and offspring (survival of genes).

Heroes who have sacrificed themselves for complete strangers? Maybe extreme levels of empathy? It's fun to try and break things down to attempt to understand why people do what they do.

"Why do I sell my keyboards to other enthusiasts which I regularly converse with at extreme discounts?" Maybe it's related to how we help our friends out because we want to be in good standing with our social groups. Maybe it's truly altruistic. I don't have the answer, tho.

And, of course, in your example, it's universally accepted that Mr. Kolbe is a hero and his act is extremely honorable. I'm not dismissing that one bit.

Anyways, this forum isn't the place for these discussions, so I'll leave it be.

On a more related topic, my parts from kbdfans for my new 60% layout should be arriving today. Looking to mimic the HHKB layout of the Kishsaver and have a more quiet alternative for gaming and whatnot. Should be fun to build.

[kbdfr]

@wobbled
[…] Regardless, it belongs not here. Please respect that.

Anyways, this forum isn't the place for these discussions, so […]

I (more or less) respectfully disagree.
To suggest wobbled should open a specific thread is like urging people who are protesting in front of the presidential palace to instead express their concerns in a distant suburb.

And DT ha a long-cherished history of not sticking to topics:
search.php?keywords=offtopicthority

By the way, I consider more than $50 for anything IBM to be completely insane

[Slom]

People complaining about Ellipse having elliptical prices for his keyboards? No shit man ...

[robo]

It's such an absurd thing to be foaming at the mouth about. If Ellipse wants to list one item on his site for some silly price, an item that can be purchased from many other places, why can't he do that? Maybe he doesn't really want to sell it.

I don't get people who seem to think that anyone offering something for sale must only ASK for a "reasonable" price. That's not how buying and selling works, and frankly indicates someone who has an unhealthy preoccupation with someone else's business.

Now, if Ellipse went and sold Model F keyboards to a bunch of people and then demanded $4000 for some replacement part that broke on everybody's due to poor design, that would be something else, but that is not this.

Maybe he thinks someone rich and bored will be browsing the site, decide they really would rather have an SSK, and clicks 'Buy'. If so, great. It's none of your business.

[russypt]

I'm really quite enjoying everything I've bought from Ellipse so far and don't feel ripped off over any of it. Sad to have to use phpBB's ignore list for the first time, but here we are. Sounds like I'm going to miss out on some sweet links to available $400 NIB SSKs. Maybe I can even negotiate them down to $40.

[Gurbsordidity]

This I am the Dark Knight of aftermarket keyboard prices shtick is so obviously ridiculous that one thing is certain: Wobbled himself can't possibly believe it.

Wobbled's true motives are anyone's guess, but when I recall that he tried a similar stunt in January to pressure Ellipse to pay the duty for his import, I'm inclined to think Wobbled will say anything to pad his pockets.

Including complaining about the greed of others.

[Bass]

You can see it however the fuck you want lad, the fact is I've seen NIB SSK's live on ebay for a maximum of $600. Some of these had even been opened up and bolt modded to ensure they pretty much last forever.
How exactly can you boil down my thoughts to jealousy? I decided not to buy new SSKs in the past because I thought the asking price was a bit on the high end for something not industrial and not a model f.
When I saw the $4000 asking price for a basic bitch blue label new ssk I knew I had to raise it with ellipse. Despite how much respect I have for the guy for producing one of the best projects that has ever come from deskthority, there is no excuse for pure fucking greed on this level.
Feel free to continue to defend this type of behaviour, but when no one gives a shit about this hobby anymore because it isn't feasible, you'll have yourself to blame.

Well, I didn't want to comment on this subject again since I honestly thought the $4k asking price was an honest mistake on Ellipse's part, since as you have said, the historical price point of a NIB SSK was $400-$600, a literal order of magnitude lower. Frankly, I think the odds of it selling at the current asking price are lower than me winning the lottery.

But so what? Frankly that assertion is nothing more than my opinion, so I'll leave it at that as should you. Trying to push any further is nothing more than self-righteousness on your part. You've been on this crusade over "greed destroying this hobby" for many years now which is just laughable, since not only it hasn't (this hobby continues to grow more popular and mainstream in spite of how expensive it has become), but the irony is your rude behavior is more harmful to the hobby, if anything. I already made a lengthy post about this nearly two years ago which explains why which I think is strongly worth a read for those that haven't seen it. There will be people who disagree with Ellipse's prices and business practices, but at the end of the day he has contributed far more to the hobby than his detractors.

[Admiral]

This may have been answered before and in no way do I want to diminish Ellipse's contributions or insult him, but I was looking at Chyrosran's video on the F62 that was given to him for review, and this older website that had some photos of the F62/F77 models. And I noticed that they have a giant foot for the keyboards and a volume knob for their beeper.

Did Ellipse originally consider basing the classic designs exactly off of them?

And then for what reasons was it turned down or changed? Clearly I'm sure the complexities of the knob, and the foot requiring more material would have increased costs significantly.


Anyway just wanted to again express my thanks to Ellipse, and to all who helped to make these reproductions possible. The keyboards I have feel, look, and sound great. I haven't had any trouble so far with xwhatsit so far. I'm excited to try out the solenoids, and now I'm thinking of finding a beeper to try too

[Zcool31]

The exchange about the price of that particular SSK was thoroughly entertaining, thank you.

And now for something completely different!

I think the idea of taking a Model F, a moderately loud keyboard, and adding a solenoid to make it even louder is incredible, and do humbly request more videos from those of you who have added one to your keyboards. Please make special note of your recording environment and equipment, and how they color the sound of the solenoid.

Yes, I'm a fan of both Podcastage and Chyrosran22, and am selfishly asking for both review styles at once.

[Invisius]

I think it's fair to have this discussion, since the greed vs community thing has been going on for years in keyboard communities. I also think this is an odd bone to pick, given how much Joe has done over the years for the hobby. It's one thing to bring up something like the 4k SSK respectfully and put it into perspective, but to throw him under the bus for ruining the hobby just seems unfair.

On the same token, I do think there's a balance to be kept here- I see some members moving towards that kind of profiteering, and would be disappointed to see it influence this otherwise respectable community project. There's always going to be people flipping or desoldering relics on ebay, mechmarket, or wherever they think they can make top dollar. It's unfortunate that it takes the focus away from the actual enjoyment of the hobby, and I do think those of us who have the passion for classic hardware should do what we can to preserve that for other members over profit- especially for those less fortunate.

[jafd]

You can see it however the fuck you want lad, the fact is I've seen NIB SSK's live on ebay for a maximum of $600. Some of these had even been opened up and bolt modded to ensure they pretty much last forever.

Then what's the problem to go and buy them there? Listen bub, you keep bitching here and you're not even close to being a customer.

At the end of the day Ellipse will likely fail to sell it at that price, and that's going to be his loss. Nevertheless, it's not like he owes it to you or anybody else to have a price conform to anyone's expectations. Who do you think you are, a self-proclaimed Secretary General of some sort of a Communist Central Planning Committee for Mechanical Keyboards Supply and Demand? Feel free to on ebay and buy SSKs for $600 if you so wish, stop harassing people.

Sorry everyone, but reading that exchange made my blood boil a bit. I won't be saying any more on that. But there's a warm and fuzzy feeling in telling wobbled to go get lost, can't deny it either.

[kbdfr]

You can see it however the fuck you want lad, the fact is I've seen NIB SSK's live on ebay for a maximum of $600. Some of these had even been opened up and bolt modded to ensure they pretty much last forever.

Then what's the problem to go and buy them there? Listen bub, you keep bitching here and you're not even close to being a customer.

At the end of the day Ellipse will likely fail to sell it at that price, and that's going to be his loss. Nevertheless, it's not like he owes it to you or anybody else to have a price conform to anyone's expectations. Who do you think you are, a self-proclaimed Secretary General of some sort of a Communist Central Planning Committee for Mechanical Keyboards Supply and Demand? Feel free to on ebay and buy SSKs for $600 if you so wish, stop harassing people.

Sorry everyone, but reading that exchange made my blood boil a bit. I won't be saying any more on that. But there's a warm and fuzzy feeling in telling wobbled to go get lost, can't deny it either.

I do recommend non-selective reading.

wobbled’s first post about that price was fairly neutral:

Why is this 4 THOUSAND DOLLARS?
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product ... y-1392934/

he then posted twice in a similar manner, even saying, when the possibility of a mistake was mentioned: "I do hope so.. he sold me industrial ssk's and f107s for very fair prices in the past".
Meanwhile Ellipse posted several times and superbly ignored the matter, until wobbled directly confronted him and was told to post elsewhere. That’s when wobbled posted "Stop the greed." (without even an exclamation mark).

I don’t know (and don’t care) whether $4000 is or is not a fair price, but I find attempts to silence wobbled by second-guessing his motives and insinuating all kinds of nasty reasons grossly improper. He simply asked a question.
A question which, by the way, remains unanswered. I wonder why Ellipse ignored the question instead of posting something like "I simply hope someone will buy it for this price".Or "It was a heavy investment and a lot of work". Or "I find it is worth it". Or anything of the kind.

Not that it would be of any interest to me, by the way.
In my opinion, IBM is mainstream garbage

[BucklingSprings]

I don't mind the high asking price for the TKL. One one hand it is none of my business. On the other hand: who knows what
the current market prices for such pristine NOS boards in their original (mint) box are. There might be collectors out there who
don't want to do the research, the trading, the traveling and so on. If somebody like that has deep enough pockets to
not regret that buy - well then that is great for everybody.
For the rest of us - we can get an even better F-62 or F-77 for a much lower price. We just have to wait for it. To me
it was well worth the wait and the (modest amount of) money. If you ask me: Ellipses Model-Fs are a steal.

[clint]

I'm bouncing back and forth to work 2-3 days/week, so I needed a method to transport the F77 without risk of damaging it(not like it could be damaged- more like protection for other things around it)
Picked up a mostly unused, but old, circa 1982, Samsonite attache for cheap on the 'bay. Turned out to be a really nice unit.
Added some sturdy foam and cut it to size...The foam fully encloses the keyboard without hitting any keys, it's almost like it was meant for this keyboard.

modelfkeyboard-case.jpg (225.65 KiB) Viewed 8294 times

modelfkeyboard-case-3.png (594.35 KiB) Viewed 8294 times

it's like new.

modelfkeyboard-case-2.png (204.81 KiB) Viewed 8294 times

[webwit]

Not that it would be of any interest to me, by the way.
In my opinion, IBM is mainstream garbage

We have another player in this thread.

[darkcruix]

...
Picked up a mostly unused, but old, circa 1982, Samsonite attache for cheap on the 'bay. Turned out to be a really nice unit.
Added some sturdy foam and cut it to size...The foam fully encloses the keyboard without hitting any keys, it's almost like it was meant for this keyboard.
...

With this you definitely look as if you transport something bad ass. You need to add handcuffs to it and maybe wear shades and an earpiece... Agent Smith ... I love the looks of it. And by the way - also great details on the keyboard / cable (IBM logos)

[Shihatsu]

Some people seem to have problems with the concept of "freedom of speech" and critism. It is okay to dislike others behaviour, it is also okay to tell them (and others) of their dislike. What is not okay is to try to silence someone. Because you, as the silencer, are trying to remove the right of freedom of speech from the silenced. Which is like... stupid? Shady af?
Beside that, one of the things I like much about DT is the fact that shady behaviour, hypocrisy and bad manners are spoken out loudly, where and when these thins happen. I am here because of such things. And yes, some guys here are white knights regarding the keyboard hobby, and I just love it. Thank you, wobbled.
What I would like is a word from Ellipse about the topic. Meanwhile I will wait for my ModelF. Did I mention that the waiting is killing me?