Seeking Soarer - evidence thread

[depletedvespene]

…
I don't think this needs to be a legal thing. Soarer's hasn't been developed further not because of legal baggage (no one cares, he made the compiled version free, why would he be otherwise protective of it after developement ceased?) but because in practical terms the new functionality people want to add is for weird edge cases.

This is not actually the case. Your argument misses the sense of ownership that good developers have — Albert's code is Albert's, and Brian, Charles and Daniel will generally refrain from making (public, at least) changes unless Albert has invited them to do so, be this explicitly or through a release with any kind of open-source license.

In Soarer's case, no one would touch his source code because: a) it wasn't published, b) this sense of ownership lingered on even when Soarer had been MIA for quite some time. Even when someone reverse engineered it, this was treated as a tentative option and not formally released out of the same sense of ownership.

Also, look up the thread where orihalcon(?) asked for a list of stuff that should be added to Soarer's if that became an option. Several of the features listed weren't for "weird edge cases".

[depletedvespene]

Just fucking do it. Don't wait for permission you don't need. If no one is developing it then it's for any reason other than "it's illegal"

Some people like to respect the law. Imagine the nerve!

[Muirium]

Several of the features listed weren't for "weird edge cases".

Indeed. Let me add a few requests for Soarer 2.0:

• NeXT protocol support
• ADB protocol support
• SUN protocol support
• See the pattern?
• We need active open source development for this
• It's not multiple projects
• It's one product!

Man, having one multi-port, intelligently programmable classic protocol converter under my desk? Nirvana!

[4_404]

In terms of my culture, Soarer did all of you wrong by failing to publish source and license it properly, creating a maintenance nightmare and legal vulnerability that never should have existed. In terms of my culture he damn well ought to be tracked down and if he's still alive slapped upside the head for being dangerously sloppy and careless. You people may not see it that way, but it's because you don't have the norms we do in hacker culture that Soarer's converter will go poof if the particular hardware he built blobs for gets end-of-lifed - and, orihalcon is in some danger of being fined for all the profits he's made and punitive damages on top of that.

Soarer did me right by developing a keyboard converter that I use every day. All 'hacker culture' has done for me in the last week is make this stupid thread.

This is extremely low stakes. As others have mentioned, there are already alternatives to Soarer's converter/controller, and there will be new alternatives in the future. No, they don't work exactly the same, and yes Soarer's is my favorite, but Soarer's already does everything I want it to, and will continue to do so as long as I can buy pro micros to run it on. It's not a sloppy mess to me. It works. We have been managing as is for years without change, and I see no reason why those of us who still use his work can't continue to do so in the future. I can see why the source code would be beneficial, but if the price of it is digging up the creator then I don't see how it is worth it. Soarer is gone. I don't know why, and we should not be concerned with that. All we know is he is gone for his own good reason, and we should respect that. I see a lot of things not very respectful to Soarer in this thread. Leave him alone, and use the converter as is. Instead maybe restore some keyboards, or something actually productive towards this community. We don't want hacker culture here. We want cool keyboards.

[lis0r]

Indeed. Let me add a few requests for Soarer 2.0:

• NeXT protocol support
• ADB protocol support
• SUN protocol support
• See the pattern?
• We need active open source development for this
• It's not multiple projects
• It's one product!

Man, having one multi-port, intelligently programmable classic protocol converter under my desk? Nirvana!

Laudable goals.

The dumb bit is starting with Soarer's, rather than a fresh start designed from the outset to achieve those goals.

[depletedvespene]

So uh... where would the uncompiled source come from? Soarer never posted it and the files are likely irrecoverable. Even if the code is opened up development is reliant on reverse engineered crap. Which we already have, and no one really seems to eager to work on it.

I don't think we're likely to recover Soarer's actual sources either. The best we're likely to be able to do is proceed from something like Arakula's decompilation. Which does have one huge advantage: we can produce a replica of working binary from it.

Maybe the reason nobody is working on the decompiled code is that few people knew it existed before this thread and it's not under an open-source license? If we fix those problems attracting people to work on it get much easier. I've already volunteered the bit I think I'm good for.

I can attest to this part. Someone at some point in the past told me about this decompiled code, and I did not even want to look at it, out of the same ethical dilemma described in the sane parts of this thread.


As I mentioned before, my 9-to-5 job involves a hell of a lot of source code recovery from old binaries (with, sometimes, the help of even older, obsolete copies of the sources), so I have a good idea of the limitations inherent in a decompiled/reverse engineered re-starting point (although in my 9-to-5 job I don't have to worry about legal implications, as it's all owned by the company).

[esr]

also, really finding it hard to confabulate the following:

200 dollar damages most

and

orihalcon is in danger of being RUINED (as if i care, dickhead is ripping people off hard)

It's simple. If we don't piss the judge off by scurrying around like we have something to hide, the worse thing he's likely to do to someone putting a BSD license on the decompiled code and throwing it on Github is $200 de minimis damages. No profits there so only statutory damages (at worst) apply.

For someone actually making money from the code, things are very different. That can be interpreted as in what both American and British law is called "conversion" and "unjust enrichment", and when a judge thinks that's happening the hammer tends to come down. Hard. The judge could require eBay to disclose orihalcon's entire transaction history and then extract every bit of money he's ever made.

If the judge concludes the violation was willful, the amount of that fine could triple. That's American law - I don't know if there's an equivalent British provision, but orihalcon ships from the U.S. I think orihalcon is safe from a wilfulness finding given that Soarer approved of his converters, but nothing like this is certain because a good attack lawyer can come damn near warping space time around a judge.

And dodging "willfulness" wouldn't save him from having all his profits extracted on behalf of whoever actually holds the rights. Soarer's approval is a much weaker defense against that. It's not nothing, but we're in territory where the outcome is perilously dependent on what side of the bed the judge got up on the morning of the hearing.

As for "ripping people off", I didn't feel ripped off when I bought a Soarer's Converter for my Model F. I would cheerfully buy the SDL-cable version for my M if he had them in stock. He performs a service by building the hardware, integrating the software, and testing the result; I don't have any issue with paying him for that service. His prices aren't crazy - I'm a little doubtful that he's even recovering the full cost of his skilled time.

I even think he's ethically in the clear reusing Soarer's blobs, given that Soarer approved. The problem is that he's not legally in the clear against a determined attack.

To be honest, I care more about freeing the source than protecting orihalcon. But I think it would be nice if he didn't get fucked over.

[depletedvespene]

I'm just not worried about such improbable possibilities. I eat cold cuts and drive a car, and those things kill people every day, the risk of a troll suit being filed against anonymous computer people who don't even sell it is hilariously small.

"Don't bother with the risk! Don't bother with the risk!"
— The guy who won't be taking the risk.


Do you see why that argument falls flat?

[ifohancroft]

Indeed.

Soarer may not actually be dead, mind. I was gone a few years myself. Everyone has their reasons… life can be hard. So hard that at least two people who posted in that thread, including ironically its OP, are gone from this world now.

Oh, shit! I remember that thread, but I didn't know you back then.

The best we're likely to be able to do is proceed from something like Arakula's decompilation. Which does have one huge advantage: we can produce a replica of working binary from it.

Who confirmed this? I kept gettig errors in the code when trying to compile it and even after fixing them I didn't get an identical binary, so I'd lile to compare notes / make sure I'm not missig something, as the repo lacks documentation on pretty much everything.

[depletedvespene]

Indeed. Let me add a few requests for Soarer 2.0:

• NeXT protocol support
• ADB protocol support
• SUN protocol support
• See the pattern?
• We need active open source development for this
• It's not multiple projects
• It's one product!

Man, having one multi-port, intelligently programmable classic protocol converter under my desk? Nirvana!

Laudable goals.

The dumb bit is starting with Soarer's, rather than a fresh start designed from the outset to achieve those goals.

And yet, such a project would be better off if it could reuse some parts of Soarer's code (the part about interpreting the .sc files would be the most obvious example).

So, "Suárez Converter" 0.001... when?

[esr]

The best we're likely to be able to do is proceed from something like Arakula's decompilation. Which does have one huge advantage: we can produce a replica of working binary from it.

Who confirmed this? I kept gettig errors in the code when trying to compile it and even after fixing them I didn't get an identical binary, so I'd lile to compare notes / make sure I'm not missig something, as the repo lacks documentation on pretty much everything.

Urk. I don't actually know this is true. I assumed it based on what Antonizoon said. If he's not a reliable reporter we have a problem.

Not an insuperable one, though. Code decompilation is an actual thing, we'd just need someone to do it more carefully.

[depletedvespene]

…
This triggers a rant I can no longer refrain from issuing...

DT people have what by my standards is a very weird culture. Anonymous developers? Shipping hex blobs with no licenses? That's...bizarre. In the hacker culture I come from, we assume that disclosed source code is the only thing that can be trusted, and people will stand behind their work with their meatspace identities if required. Everyone is accountable, development is transparent, and you make legal cover for cooperation with proper grants of rights from the get-go.
…

As a side comment, this is part of a swinging trend, which has rather weird origins, all things considered.

This thing about identities has moved back and forth several times already. When I got onto the Internet in 1992, the usage of "handles" to hide one's "true name" was seen as a quaint fad. Then "nicknames" became in vogue again, then "real names" came back. Then "online identities" as opposed to "personally identifiable information" became the norm; this is the stage where we're at now, which has added (for SCO-y and reddit-y reasons), an unhealthy taboo on the latter, to the point that the meaning of "doxxing" has been inflated beyond any usefulness (I've been, hopefully half-joking, accused of doxxing myself for pointing to a webpage in my personal site, where my name is displayed).

Developers have always understood the relation between a handle/nickname/OI and the true name/real name/PII, but this isn't always the case among users — the mechanical keyboard sprung up from power users and grew to cover users... and that mandates the current culture, which indeed does have a serious problem when it comes to development, and is needing to learn some lessons once more (not just about legal issues, but about actual programming practices in not few cases).


And now, we have people actively sabotaging a software recovery effort, some out of this grave misunderstanding of programming practices (derived from knowledge holes in the culture they're in), some out of inexcusable malice AND vested interest. And it has to be said that in other cultures (past and present) the kind of crap that one specific individual has slinged into this thread would have meant instant, permanent ostracism.

Damn. DT was supposed to be better than this shitshow.

[Muirium]

Damn. DT was supposed to be better than this shitshow.

It usually is.

The weird thing is that this doesn’t happen to every thread. You know Godwin’s Law: it’s a statement of probability. Strange how even far, far longer running threads than this one can stay fairly civil for years at a time.

[depletedvespene]

Damn. DT was supposed to be better than this shitshow.

It usually is.

The weird thing is that this doesn’t happen to every thread. You know Godwin’s Law: it’s a statement of probability. Strange how even far, far longer running threads than this one can stay fairly civil for years at a time.

Well, there IS a difference between heated arguments from civilized people that have irreconcilable ideological positions, and the degradation that individuals acting in inexcusable bad faith can bring in.

[esr]

Soarer did me right by developing a keyboard converter that I use every day. All 'hacker culture' has done for me in the last week is make this stupid thread.

Yeah? How about in the last year, or the last couple of decades?

You're using a browser. I'm guessing you have a smartphone. Might have a gaming console at home. You rely on your computer's clock to be accurate. Want to guess how much of my code you rely on every time you lean on these things? If I were to tell you, I hope you'd have enough grace to be seriously embarrassed by what you just uttered.

But I don't want to make this about me, because it should be about the hackers I'm representing here in general. I'm not unique; I have lots of peers who would have just as much right to be annoyed by your casual dismissal, and I'm speaking now more on their behalf than my own. You thoughtlessly take advantage of infrastructure we poured sweat into for decades on every day of your life - things we invented, code we wrote and gave away for free. That's OK, we did the work because we loved it and we don't normally expect thanks for it. It's not our way to complain or demand attention, and thus I very nearly let your ignorant remark pass by.

The reason I decided I had to speak up is not to "bigman" (an idiotic term I never encountered before this forum) on my own behalf, it's to explain why you owe some respect for the work we all put in and the best practices we developed to support it. The Internet and your comfortable virtual world exists because a hundred thousand hackers made it happen, and would do it all over again if we had to. The least you could do in return is not casually crap on us.

Soarer could have been one of us if he had clued in enough to follow our practices and disciplines. But he didn't, which is exactly whythere's a mess to clean up here.

[depletedvespene]

…
Soarer could have been one of us if he had clued in enough to follow our practices and disciplines. But he didn't, which is exactly there's a mess to clean up here.

I've been very stern in making it clear that we can't make assumptions regarding Soarer's state (and mindset), so I'll have to make a point here: we don't know if he "did" or "did not" follow all good practices — regarding sofware development, the code running in Soarer's converter is pretty much an "open beta" (with a version number that could be described as 0.999 RC 1, where everything is done but you're doing an extra final step before release, just in case) that never DID get to the "release 1.0" status, because Soarer didn't actually formalize that... for whatever reason it may have been.

So, yeah, there is a mess to be left behind, but we don't know (but suspect) what the actual reason for it was. And I will state again that if it WAS an untimely death, ensuring his software didn't end up dead because of it, too, would be a much better way of honoring him and his contribution than simply making a clone.



That reminds me I shoud re-review some of my own stuff, too. The project I'm currently working on will definitely need an extra pass regarding the legalese.

[Muirium]

The mess *is* the lack of licence. If he’d just put a license in the distro, we’d be all set to use Arakula’s.

[esr]

This thing about identities has moved back and forth several times already. When I got onto the Internet in 1992, the usage of "handles" to hide one's "true name" was seen as a quaint fad. Then "nicknames" became in vogue again, then "real names" came back. Then "online identities" as opposed to "personally identifiable information" became the norm; this is the stage where we're at now, which has added (for SCO-y and reddit-y reasons), an unhealthy taboo on the latter, to the point that the meaning of "doxxing" has been inflated beyond any usefulness

You probably know this, but I'm going to be explicit about it for those who don't.

Among the hackers who actually keep the gears of things like the Internet and Linux turning, true names never went away. I've explained the functional reason for that; people have to be accountable for their code. Outside of some odd special cases like people hiding from a totalitarian regime, the general assumption is that the only parties insisting on anonymity are criminals and saboteurs.

Which isn't to say we don't use handles. I'm "esr" most places (and it's actually a kind of tribal honor to be known by a three-letter name) but that's not an opaque handle. Everybody knows who "esr" is in meatspace, and it would be disturbing if I tried to conceal that. I use other handles where I have to, but only when the machinery won't accept one that short or "esr" is already taken.

This is typical behavior where I come from. It has nuances: my apprentice ianbruene uses an opaque handle when he's gaming, but not when he's committing code. For that he uses his real name. He knows why this is important.

[darkcruix]

Code: Select all

0x539

[esr]

I've been very stern in making it clear that we can't make assumptions regarding Soarer's state (and mindset), so I'll have to make a point here: we don't know if he "did" or "did not" follow all good practices — regarding sofware development, the code running in Soarer's converter is pretty much an "open beta" (with a version number that could be described as 0.999 RC 1, where everything is done but you're doing an extra final step before release, just in case) that never DID get to the "release 1.0" status, because Soarer didn't actually formalize that... for whatever reason it may have been.

No, Soarer doesn't get off the hook for bad practice because it was a beta. Correct action is to attach a grant of rights to your first commit, so people looking at the code won't instantly be in a legally compromised position.

If this place weren't a weird little tidepool disconnected from hacker culture you would already have known this.

That reminds me I shoud re-review some of my own stuff, too. The project I'm currently working on will definitely need an extra pass regarding the legalese.

Ping me if you want help with that.

[ifohancroft]

Urk. I don't actually know this is true. I assumed it based on what Antonizoon said. If he's not a reliable reporter we have a problem.

Not an insuperable one, though. Code decompilation is an actual thing, we'd just need someone to do it more carefully.

Perhaps it is true.

We don't know (at least I, currently don't know on top of my head) if he made any further improvements to the code. Also, despite my changes allowing the code to compile without errors (and IIRC without warnings), I don't know if they are correct.

Also, the code may produce a binary that's functionally the same, so I don't know if it's reasonable for me to expect the two binaries to be exactly the same byte for byte when compiled.

I can't test if they work the same, because as much as I am ashamed to admit it, I don't actually have any old/retro boards. There are many such boards that I want but I couldn't afford buying them so far.

[Muirium]

You could share your hex file with someone who has a working Soarer’s converter.

(Not me though. I’m away from keyboard this weekend.)

[depletedvespene]

I've been very stern in making it clear that we can't make assumptions regarding Soarer's state (and mindset), so I'll have to make a point here: we don't know if he "did" or "did not" follow all good practices — regarding sofware development, the code running in Soarer's converter is pretty much an "open beta" (with a version number that could be described as 0.999 RC 1, where everything is done but you're doing an extra final step before release, just in case) that never DID get to the "release 1.0" status, because Soarer didn't actually formalize that... for whatever reason it may have been.

No, Soarer doesn't get off the hook for bad practice because it was a beta. Correct action is to attach a grant of rights to your first commit, so people looking at the code won't instantly be in a legally compromised position.

If this place weren't a weird little tidepool disconnected from hacker culture you would already have known this.

I actually know this.

But do remember what I mentioned in one of my early posts in the thread, about how some programmers of old WERE taught to write documentation in the last step of development... not to say anything of the bad habit of not actually writing the freakin' docs, something I've had to wrangle with in my 9-to-5 jobs since basically forever. Aaaaand... that, AFAICT, the actual source code wasn't ever published, only the compiled firmware.

That reminds me I shoud re-review some of my own stuff, too. The project I'm currently working on will definitely need an extra pass regarding the legalese.

Ping me if you want help with that.

Thanks for the generous offer.

[depletedvespene]

Code: Select all

0x539

0x538, you monstruously monstrous monster.

[headphone_jack]

Soarer did me right by developing a keyboard converter that I use every day. All 'hacker culture' has done for me in the last week is make this stupid thread.

Yeah? How about in the last year, or the last couple of decades?

You're using a browser. I'm guessing you have a smartphone. Might have a gaming console at home. You rely on your computer's clock to be accurate. Want to guess how much of my code you rely on every time you lean on these things? If I were to tell you, I hope you'd have enough grace to be seriously embarrassed by what you just uttered.

But I don't want to make this about me, because it should be about the hackers I'm representing here in general. I'm not unique; I have lots of peers who would have just as much right to be annoyed by your casual dismissal, and I'm speaking now more on their behalf than my own. You thoughtlessly take advantage of infrastructure we poured sweat into for decades on every day of your life - things we invented, code we wrote and gave away for free. That's OK, we did the work because we loved it and we don't normally expect thanks for it. It's not our way to complain or demand attention, and thus I very nearly let your ignorant remark pass by.

The reason I decided I had to speak up is not to "bigman" (an idiotic term I never encountered before this forum) on my own behalf, it's to explain why you owe some respect for the work we all put in and the best practices we developed to support it. The Internet and your comfortable virtual world exists because a hundred thousand hackers made it happen, and would do it all over again if we had to. The least you could do in return is not casually crap on us.

Soarer could have been one of us if he had clued in enough to follow our practices and disciplines. But he didn't, which is exactly whythere's a mess to clean up here.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Just because you coded some useful stuff a while ago doesn't mean you aren't one of the most Redditor, high horse, self centered pricks I've ever seen in this community. Do yourself a favor and leave deskthority. Anybody that cares about this community certainly doesn't want you here. Also, I think you have a serious misunderstanding of what the word hacker means.

[an_achronism]

I don't know if I've been surprised so many times that a thread could actually still somehow get worse

[shallot]

Soarer did me right by developing a keyboard converter that I use every day. All 'hacker culture' has done for me in the last week is make this stupid thread.

Yeah? How about in the last year, or the last couple of decades?

You're using a browser. I'm guessing you have a smartphone. Might have a gaming console at home. You rely on your computer's clock to be accurate. Want to guess how much of my code you rely on every time you lean on these things? If I were to tell you, I hope you'd have enough grace to be seriously embarrassed by what you just uttered.

But I don't want to make this about me, because it should be about the hackers I'm representing here in general. I'm not unique; I have lots of peers who would have just as much right to be annoyed by your casual dismissal, and I'm speaking now more on their behalf than my own. You thoughtlessly take advantage of infrastructure we poured sweat into for decades on every day of your life - things we invented, code we wrote and gave away for free. That's OK, we did the work because we loved it and we don't normally expect thanks for it. It's not our way to complain or demand attention, and thus I very nearly let your ignorant remark pass by.

The reason I decided I had to speak up is not to "bigman" (an idiotic term I never encountered before this forum) on my own behalf, it's to explain why you owe some respect for the work we all put in and the best practices we developed to support it. The Internet and your comfortable virtual world exists because a hundred thousand hackers made it happen, and would do it all over again if we had to. The least you could do in return is not casually crap on us.

Soarer could have been one of us if he had clued in enough to follow our practices and disciplines. But he didn't, which is exactly whythere's a mess to clean up here.

ok bigman

[depletedvespene]

…
Just because you coded some useful stuff a while ago doesn't mean you aren't one of the most Redditor, high horse, self centered pricks I've ever seen in this community. Do yourself a favor and leave deskthority. Anybody that cares about this community certainly doesn't want you here. Also, I think you have a serious misunderstanding of what the word hacker means.

Your cluelessness and hatassery would be amusing if it weren't so laden by gratuituous vitriol.


Muirium, that DT forking you mentioned before?

[Muirium]

Anybody that cares about this community certainly doesn't want you here. Also, I think you have a serious misunderstanding of what the word hacker means.

Headphone jack, I’ve been here a while, and played a fair role in this community. So let me invite you to take your own advice and leave, friend. You’ll do well elsewhere.

esr ain’t perfect, no one is. Christ, not me! But keep the ad hominem bullcrap to yourself. Don’t pretend you speak for anyone. I speak for me when I suggest you get tae fuck, pal.

[shallot]

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.