Dear Model F owners, can we talk? (Long rant)

[vincent]

Thinking back, I can now remember exactly who the OP is talking about. They do exist. I’m already annoyed again just remembering that they exist. They particularly exist in Discord servers of subreddits like r/buildapc, r/headphones, and r/watches (although, I’ll have to give credit to r/watches, the actual subreddit, for actually having great culture that discourages the type of behavior we’re talking about here).

They constantly spew the same hyperbolic bullshit that OP talked about. In the r/buildapc server, people were calling me stupid for “having more money than sense” in buying an Intel i9-9900K which, at the time, was actually the most performant CPU for gaming at the time. They couldn’t fathom someone spending a large premium for only a small increase in performance. I knew what I was getting into and bought it anyway; fuck me, right? They literally said, “Nobody should be buying Intel CPUs. Anybody doing that is stupid.” That came from a mod of that server!

In the r/watches server, some punk straight up said my watch is too big on me. First of all, that’s just rude. Why did he feel the need to even say that? Second, I already knew this person had a history of complaining about watch sizes of today vs. those of vintage ones.

And in none of these instances did anybody stand up for me and be like, “hey, that’s not nice.”

I left those servers because I don’t need that additional negativity in my life.

[Tritian]

In the r/watches server, some punk straight up said my watch is too big on me. First of all, that’s just rude. Why did he feel the need to even say that?

People say my F122 is too big for me, but it's the last thing they get to say.

[vincent]

People say my F122 is too big for me, but it's the last thing they get to say.

Ha! I wouldn’t be able to say the same about my watch because that’d prove their point!

[Obin]

r/watches

I don't know about r/watches in particular, but I've gotten attitudes like that from (mechanical) watch enthusiasts all the time. The overall watch community is filled with arrogance and elitism.

Yes your watch(es) may cost ten times as much as mine, yet somehow manage to be less practical, less reliable, less accurate, less robust and whether they look better is arguable at best. So no, you don't get to arrogantly lecture me on my spending decisions, I know very well what I bought and why.

[raoulduke-esq]

People say my F122 is too big for me, but it's the last thing they get to say.

It's not the size that matters, but rather how you use it.

If you love having a 122 key layout and everything right there at your fingers, great!

If you love a 40% with 5 layers and never moving your hands from home row, great!

If you love a Butterstick because chording is your jam, great!

[vincent]

I don't know about r/watches in particular, but I've gotten attitudes like that from (mechanical) watch enthusiasts all the time. The overall watch community is filled with arrogance and elitism.

Yes your watch(es) may cost ten times as much as mine, yet somehow manage to be less practical, less reliable, less accurate, less robust and whether they look better is arguable at best. So no, you don't get to arrogantly lecture me on my spending decisions, I know very well what I bought and why.

r/watches has probably succumbed to the tragedy of the commons as a result of growing to its current size, so it may no longer be a good example.

I’m sorry you had that experience. I’ve personally experienced the opposite, although the watch groups I’m a part of are small, local, have in-person meetups, and no anonymity (people use their real names and phone numbers). One of the groups I’m a part of is at work. I’ve hosted a few events on campus at work where independent watchmakers’ CEOs and designers came to give a presentation and talk watches. We’ve even had some big watch channel YouTubers come give presentations, as well. And there’s no snooty elitism; in fact, that kind of behavior is discouraged. At our meetups, we’d pass our watches around the table (only those who are comfortable) and we’d all ooh and ahh at each other’s watches.

In general, the atmosphere is very positive and respectful. There’s also this understanding that price and hype are not the most important factors to consider in watches. There’s always something to be appreciated, and people tend to focus on that. Or, at least, if people don’t have anything nice to say, they say nothing at all, as the saying goes.

Biggest reason is probably that these communities aren’t lowest-common-denominator internet communities, though.

[Obin]

And there’s no snooty elitism; in fact, that kind of behavior is discouraged.

Even when someone does not share the dogma of the superiority of mechanical watches and does not live inside the mechanical watch filter bubble at all?

I mean, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been judged by anyone for not being able to afford a gold watch, or not needing one with an automatic/self-winding drive etc. or for preferring vintage ones over modern ones and stuff like that. As long as I would stay within the canon of mechanical=superior I'm sure everyone would have been respectful. But when actually defending quartz driven watches and their countless advantages, all I ever got was snooty elitism, with people acting like quartz means "cheap Chinese knockoff".

Sidenote: Generally my experience with real-name communities is that they can get just as toxic as the worst anonymous ones, or even moreso, because egos are at stake. IMHO it's a common misconception that a lack of anonymity is what keeps a community civil. It's mutual respect that keeps a community civil. And that can be cultivated on an anonymous platform just as naturally as on a non-anonymous one. Or not.

[hellothere]

Spoiler:

Thinking back, I can now remember exactly who the OP is talking about. They do exist. I’m already annoyed again just remembering that they exist. They particularly exist in Discord servers of subreddits like r/buildapc, r/headphones, and r/watches (although, I’ll have to give credit to r/watches, the actual subreddit, for actually having great culture that discourages the type of behavior we’re talking about here).

They constantly spew the same hyperbolic bullshit that OP talked about. In the r/buildapc server, people were calling me stupid for “having more money than sense” in buying an Intel i9-9900K which, at the time, was actually the most performant CPU for gaming at the time. They couldn’t fathom someone spending a large premium for only a small increase in performance. I knew what I was getting into and bought it anyway; fuck me, right? They literally said, “Nobody should be buying Intel CPUs. Anybody doing that is stupid.” That came from a mod of that server!

In the r/watches server, some punk straight up said my watch is too big on me. First of all, that’s just rude. Why did he feel the need to even say that? Second, I already knew this person had a history of complaining about watch sizes of today vs. those of vintage ones.

And in none of these instances did anybody stand up for me and be like, “hey, that’s not nice.”

I left those servers because I don’t need that additional negativity in my life.

I've never joined either a watch/clock or pen forum, even though I do like both, because I kinda feel like I have to show some kind of pass to get me through the door. I have a lovely pocket watch from my grandfather-in-law that isn't worth much, other than sentimentally, but I've loved pocket watches for years. I lose my pens more often than not, so I'd want to talk about something that doesn't cost $1K.

[Mips]

It’s the same with the retro gaming community. There’s lots of elitism about pro monitors that cost tens of thousands when new and all sorts of other stuff. I ended up with one of these & loads of high end desirable kit but after all that I prefer my bog standard consumer Sony Trinitron.

[robo]

It happens in every niche enthusiast community. The Model M is widely known, cheap-ish and easy to obtain, and pretty darn good. All those are reasons cause certain kinds of people to feel a powerful urge to prove their superior knowledge, taste, resources, blah blah blah, by demonstrating conspicuous disdain for the 'common' thing in favor of something less known, harder to get, and incrementally better. "Oh, you think you know about keyboards because you've heard of the Model M? Hahahahahaha! You peasant."

I don't think any reasonable keyboard enthusiast thinks Model Ms are bad at all. And frankly their layouts make a lot more sense than most F type boards as well. It's just the infinite ladder of snobbery.

[stormcrash]

It happens in every niche enthusiast community. The Model M is widely known, cheap-ish and easy to obtain, and pretty darn good. All those are reasons cause certain kinds of people to feel a powerful urge to prove their superior knowledge, taste, resources, blah blah blah, by demonstrating conspicuous disdain for the 'common' thing in favor of something less known, harder to get, and incrementally better. "Oh, you think you know about keyboards because you've heard of the Model M? Hahahahahaha! You peasant."

I don't think any reasonable keyboard enthusiast thinks Model Ms are bad at all. And frankly their layouts make a lot more sense than most F type boards as well. It's just the infinite ladder of snobbery.

I think the next rung down on that ladder are the people who incessantly bash Unicomp Ms and insist that they're trash compared to IBM M boards. They constantly insist that the IBM boards feel/sound so much better and that anyone not shelling out more money for a used board (that may have dirt to clean, popping rivets, worn springs) than you can spend to buy new from Unicomp (which also gets you USB and Windows keys if you want them) are stupid/foolish/inferior in their choice of board.

As a daily Unicomp board user I freely admit that they are not exactly the same, Unicomp has had ups and downs on the fit and finish of their boards, but the typing experience (ie what I care about) is basically the same with nice tactility and audible click etc. They also like to ignore how IBM branded boards, even early ones, had blemishes on the bottom of the case etc, and how the feel/construction/sound changed on IBM boards too. It starts to devolve into a mess of "well my sub model from this month of this year is clearly the pinnacle of M's and everyone else doesn't know what using a true M is like"

[Yasu0]

As a proponent of the unicomp M, I got to say I like all three.. I have used F's and M's and unicomp M's.. I respect anybody's opinion who says they like only F's. Or they like original M's better. I get it, I am perhaps much less picky about switch feel, alignment, caps, color, etc. For those who are more picky, that is fine. Boring take is boring.

People say my F122 is too big for me, but it's the last thing they get to say.

[an_achronism]

As a daily Unicomp board user I freely admit that they are not exactly the same, Unicomp has had ups and downs on the fit and finish of their boards, but the typing experience (ie what I care about) is basically the same with nice tactility and audible click etc.

I would like to go on record as somebody who has frequently worried about being pegged as A Unicomp Hater to say that I fully agree with this opinion. I had basically zero issues with the actual mechanical performance of my Unicomp, I just had a lot of separate, small, but ultimately related issues with the "fit and finish" side (cosmetics and some dumb stuff where attention to detail went out the window) and that ultimately soured me on the thing overall. And yeah, IBM stuff isn't flawless either, but I would never claim that to be the case.

[raoulduke-esq]

Biggest issue with my Unicomp is inconsistent keys. Some are just… mush. They click and activate but feel like the dampened Alps version. All rivets are intact and I purchased new (Space Saver M where M is for Mac). Still, is it garbage? Hell no! It was my very first mechanical board and started me down this road years ago. A 40 year old keyboard still being made today in the US is pretty special.

[Yasu0]

Model F is a pale shadow of the true king, the selectric! All is relative. I do feel the original post of this thread. I get that same feel sometimes. And complained about it a few times too. I think its worth pointing out that we users do exist who like the ibm m or unicomp m, for noobs reading through the forum trying to figure things out.

[Rayndalf]

I think poorly of people who lack experience but speak in absolutes. But I also make harsh claims based on hearsay. Because of course I do.

When someone accuses you of having "more money than sense" it's their way of saying "I can't afford that, but based on what I've read it's overpriced, I would spend my money (which I might not have) differently". It's a good idea to ask these people questions such as "what do you use and enjoy", not "what do you reccomend".

You'll find that people parroting the conventional "best bang for the buck" advice are doing it out of expectation and actually have taste of their own which is much more interesting.

I prefer the 5 Fs I've tried to the 2 Ms I've tried, but I also haven't tried a nice M (blue badge terminal M with a coffee spill and missing a load of rivets and an NOS M13 "Maxiswitch" Lexmark board), while several of my Fs are relatively clean.

And my daily driver is a Kinesis Advantage with old MX browns. I love it. And know it "sucks". Going by a switch tester everyone would prefer certain meme switches (loudest, most tactile, smoothest etc), but in use you'll find that certain differences don't matter. If you have "cheap" taste, enjoy it!

[raoulduke-esq]

The "best" keyboard is the keyboard YOU like to use, however you like to use it. "Switch X is horrible... because groupthink!" is a terrible argument and won't do anything to change the mind of the person who loves Switch X. You rock that freakin Advantage with browns! I've been known to have a few split ergo mistresses myself...

[mode1ace]

I feel like if they were the same weight this wouldn't be an issue.

For me, a model m is just a bit too heavy to be comfortable, so while F is good for me, M is unusable.

[Bjerrk]

I feel like if they were the same weight this wouldn't be an issue.

For me, a model m is just a bit too heavy to be comfortable, so while F is good for me, M is unusable.

The Model M is the strong man's keyboard, you say?

Jokes aside, I've actually been wondering about HaaTa's force curves for membrane and capacitive buckling springs:

Membrane:



Capacitive:


I've been quite perplexed about these force curves before, since I also find the Model F to be (significantly) lighter than the Model M. But I only own Ellipse's reproduction of the Model M, not an original AT or XT, for instance.

Going by the above measurements, the Model F should require a higher actuation force as well as a greater total amount of work (the integral of the force curve, indicated as 236gfmm vs 209gfmm for the F vs M)



(and here's Salmon Alps for comparison, since I see they're your favourite switch )

[an_achronism]

I've actually been wondering about HaaTa's force curves for membrane and capacitive buckling springs

Me too, I have no idea where those came from. I have more than one original IBM Model F and they definitely feel a lighter than either M I have, even the seriously messed up 1990 one. I wonder if HaaTa was comparing a particularly worn out M with a particularly fresh F.

Although, I don't have an F AT, and I've heard people say they have a significantly different key feel, so maybe that too is a factor here.

[darkcruix]

I've actually been wondering about HaaTa's force curves for membrane and capacitive buckling springs

Me too, I have no idea where those came from. I have more than one original IBM Model F and they definitely feel a lighter than either M I have, even the seriously messed up 1990 one. I wonder if HaaTa was comparing a particularly worn out M with a particularly fresh F.

Although, I don't have an F AT, and I've heard people say they have a significantly different key feel, so maybe that too is a factor here.

I have an F AT and it has the "heaviest" key feel of all my boards. That said, I have tested it with a 1987 Model M next to it and they feel very similar in force. It is very hard to tell to be honest and I can't measure it.
When I test it next to the repro Model F62 the M feels as it requires a tiny bit more force. Could be subjective ...

IMG_1534.jpeg (114.15 KiB) Viewed 70342 times

[Bitteneite]

Membrane:



Capacitive:


I've been quite perplexed about these force curves before, since I also find the Model F to be (significantly) lighter than the Model M. But I only own Ellipse's reproduction of the Model M, not an original AT or XT, for instance.

Going by the above measurements, the Model F should require a higher actuation force as well as a greater total amount of work (the integral of the force curve, indicated as 236gfmm vs 209gfmm for the F vs M)

I absolutely love Haata's curves, useful stuff, but there something weird going on here.
On Haata's M curve, the travel seems to be roughly 3.4mm, whereas the F curve is about 4.2mm.
I never measured the M's and F's travel in person, but I doubt they're different, or at least not by that much. Could someone confirm this?

I believe he measures the "Total Energy" number (in gfmm) from the area underneath the curves (Not sure what's the mathematical term), which would yield a higher number when the curve is longer.
Ehh... it's just a guess of mine.


I stretched the M to be the same travel in Photoshop, but the F still seemed to peak for longer and higher.
The M is the cyan/red line, while the F is the blue/orange line.

Model Ms, in general, feel weirdly light when they're missing their rivets, and bolt-mods could still feel light when the studs aren't shaved or when the bolts are loose. In either case, it makes the tactility noticeably weaker. The only M's I have with a similar weighting to an F are the ones with many missing rivets.

It would be interesting if Fs had a similar weighting all along, because they definitely feel miles lighter than an M. I'd be in awe if Model Fs actually peak at 75gf. Is it just an AT thing?

[Bjerrk]

I believe he measures the "Total Energy" number (in gfmm) from the area underneath the curves (Not sure what's the mathematical term), which would yield a higher number when the curve is longer.
Ehh... it's just a guess of mine.

Yes, this is the integral of the curve that I mentioned. The reason for doing this is that, in physical terms, the work exerted by a force (which is the amount of mechanical energy transferred) is the integral of the force as a function of distance. So this is where the area under the curve measure comes into the picture

It would be interesting if Fs had a similar weighting all along, because they definitely feel miles lighter than an M. I'd be in awe if Model Fs actually peak at 75gf.

Yeah, I agree. I also find that the weighting difference between a Model M and a Model F is very noticeable indeed. One can be somewhat tiring, the other doesn't feel tiring to me at all. (I have to say, though, that I have a couple of Model Ms, IBM 1987 and a couple of Unicomps, but only a New Model F to compare with).

[darkcruix]

Model Ms, in general, feel weirdly light when they're missing their rivets, and bolt-mods could still feel light when the studs aren't shaved or when the bolts are loose. In either case, it makes the tactility noticeably weaker. The only M's I have with a similar weighting to an F are the ones with many missing rivets.

It would be interesting if Fs had a similar weighting all along, because they definitely feel miles lighter than an M. I'd be in awe if Model Fs actually peak at 75gf. Is it just an AT thing?

The M SSK I have tested against is in great shape in it feels "equal" to the F AT in terms of force required. The Brand New Model F but also my original F107 feels "lighter"...

IMG_1535.jpeg (98.92 KiB) Viewed 70303 times

[Bitteneite]

The M SSK I have tested against is in great shape in it feels "equal" to the F AT in terms of force required. The Brand New Model F but also my original F107 feels "lighter"...

Interesting. Frankly, I don't have an AT, but all 3 of my original Fs feel roughly the same, and they're all noticeably lighter than my original and restored Ms.
I'm intrigued.

[Tritian]

I have two F122's, two F AT's, one F XT, and one F 77
I have two Model M's (1990 1391401 and a 1990 SSK)

From light to heavy:
F77->(F XT, F122)->F AT->Model M

As I've said in other threads, my favorite is the F AT. It's heavier but extremely satisfying with an amazing sound. However I am using an F122 at the moment due to the layout. Once I do the ALT mod on the AT though, i'll probably stick to that.

I love my F77 and used it as my daily for months and would again. The lightness is good for extended typing sessions, and it has a nice "Bouncy" quality to it. The sound is super pingy but is helped greatly with a floss mod.

And yes, I would compare the F AT heaviness with the Model M, although I think it's a little lighter... ish?

[vometia]

I think the next rung down on that ladder are the people who incessantly bash Unicomp Ms and insist that they're trash compared to IBM M boards. They constantly insist that the IBM boards feel/sound so much better and that anyone not shelling out more money for a used board (that may have dirt to clean, popping rivets, worn springs) than you can spend to buy new from Unicomp (which also gets you USB and Windows keys if you want them) are stupid/foolish/inferior in their choice of board.

As a daily Unicomp board user I freely admit that they are not exactly the same, Unicomp has had ups and downs on the fit and finish of their boards, but the typing experience (ie what I care about) is basically the same with nice tactility and audible click etc. They also like to ignore how IBM branded boards, even early ones, had blemishes on the bottom of the case etc, and how the feel/construction/sound changed on IBM boards too. It starts to devolve into a mess of "well my sub model from this month of this year is clearly the pinnacle of M's and everyone else doesn't know what using a true M is like"

Yeah, I've seen negative comments about both that have been so strongly-worded I've found myself almost half-believing them. Of course they're absolute nonsense. Speaking personally, the M remains my favourite keyboard. My only F is the classic PC type and as such hasn't seen a lot of use (partly the comedy layout, but more to do with the slight incompatibility with the converter and my KVM: I suspect the latter to be the culprit...) and I honestly can't tell a lot of difference. What is there is very subjective, but they're so alike it's hardly worth mentioning. "They" being the PC-F and a couple of c.2000ish SSKs.

I have a later Unicomp, too, and it's a lovely keyboard. Or more to the point, was: it didn't survive having a drink spilt in it. Well it did for a while but then a bunch of keys died so something probably dissolved; maybe it could be resurrected if I had any skill with dismantling (or rather reassembling...) Anyway, it probably has the best "feel" of the bunch IMHO, being the lightest and crispest of them all, but there's that subjectivity again. Edit: forgot to mention, the one thing I didn't like is that it dated from the time they made the trackpoint keyboards and used the same case for those with and without, so mine had blanking plates where the buttons would go. The plastic is thinner and that really didn't help, making it a little creaky; still nowhere near as bad as some keyboards I've used, some of which were a great deal worse (whatever it was that came with ~1990-vintage NCD X-terminals gets the wooden spoon for creakiness) but that could've been better. And I would be happy to try out their mini but it seems it's ANSI-only at present and I wouldn't like to make assumptions about whether or not I could reconfigure it as ISO.

One of the more ludicrous things I've read more than once are the fanciful overstatements about the key weight, which I did actually believe, to my chagrin: claims of 85g and more, from what I recall. I don't have a measuring contraption and nor have I attempted to contrive one but my again subjective opinion is that they're somewhere between the MX Red (which I normally use at present) and MX Black, which is a little heavy for my taste. There seems to be some variance but I'd need to refresh my memory and CBA, but certainly not ≥85g.

Oh, and beamsprings. Liked them but haven't used one in nearly 35 years, so my memory isn't great and largely consists of the keyfeel and sound being somewhat overwhelmed by the machine-gun CLUNKCLUNKCLUNK they're famous for. They did pretty much everything big: big noise, big size, and really big weight. Big fat twinax cable too, which usually wanted to do its own thing. But not a big number of keys: ISTR it had one function key after which you pressed 1,2,3,….,-,= which was a bit of a mystery to a newcomer.

Edit II: fixed various nonsense, albeit rather late in the day now.

[NeK]

Checking out those Haata graphs, it is obvious why F feels lighter despite having a heavier peak at the buckling point. The reason is that they start moving at only 20-25g and slowly getting heavier up until just before the buckling point. This would translate to a board which all its keys feel very light and very smooth to the touch of the fingers and very easy to start moving them. And according to the graph, there is this smooth build up of resistance as the key is pushed further. And up until somewhere halfway, and just only for a tiny bit of a distance, they reach their peak resistance - getting a bit stiff - making it obvious, through your senses, that the key is right about to buckle and actuate. And then freely bottom out. All this makes for a fine typing experience IMHO.

I can understand why this smoothly gradual build up of the resistance, peaking at the point where it is about to buckle, can feel better. Because, it probably gives a feeling of an easy and light as a feather key to press while providing a smooth gradual stiffing, for a better and finer control over the actuation point.

Whereas, model M's switches have a heavy resistance right from the start and it gets a little heavier up until the buckling point. No wonder why they fill much heavier, because right from the initial touch of the key, you can feel a heavy resistance and you need to push them with a higher force in order to even start moving them.

In other words, they feel more "unmovable" blocks that continue to have about the same weight as they travel, in contrast with F keys which they feel very light to move initialy but also having a smooth and quality travel getting stiffer along the way, which probably is more desirable for most.

But this is just my opinion based on the graphs, as I haven't actually ever tried an F, and I only have a Model M keyboard. (Which I don't like it, it is way, way heavy for me)

[jmaynard]

An interesting discussion. I wonder why the different force curves? Different springs? The flippers themselves don't look that different.

I don't have a Model F to compare to myself, though with a bit of luck, that will change soon.

[NeK]

I took a quick look at google and found one more force graph measurement of M. It is from rtings.com which is has a paywall, but I could see the graph and took a screenshot:

Modem m force curve rtings.com

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Per this graph, model M starts at 45g and goes up to 78g. Which explains why M feels heavier than F. Also the haata F graph is from an F AT which is considered to be pretty heavy for an F switch, for some reason that I don't know. And lastly the Model M of Haata may had broken rivet issues and resulted in lighter readings.

Also this independent M measurement confirms the 3.5mm travel. And I found some specs of M that state that same travel distance, so I think Haata graph is correct in that regard. don't have any confirmation about the F travel though.

However I still believe that the (much) lower starting force of F is what makes it feel lighter in general, as I have explained in my previous post.

And lastly but important, those graphs tell us nothing about how heavier or lighter the keys get when pressed on their corners and/or under some angle. They are straight dead center presses and there possibly could be a lot of difference between M and F.