F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Wazrach]

Does this require disassembling the entire keyboard, including opening the inner assembly?

That would probably be the easiest way, actually. Just make sure you do it right so that you don't mess up the feeling of the keyboard like I did when my understanding of these wasn't as good.

I like to use a bar clamp to slide the plates apart once I've bent the crimped metal tab of the barrel frame out of the way. The plates should pop apart. To reassemble, I use Rapesco 32mm paper clips to apply just enough clamping force to keep the plates together while I use the bar clamp to engage the tabs. The tongue and groove pliers shown in Ellipse's videos should accomplish the same thing.

[an_achronism]

As a note the priority is very low for the XT foam and I will only be focusing on mailing out everyone's non-XT orders over the coming months, so please expect these to go out around year end and not earlier if you are interested.
(...)
This will be another group buy style order like with the beam spring and displaywriter beam spring controllers, where I will tally up the orders and send them to the factory when the tooling is complete (expected in several months from now). For the group buy orders I have subtracted $10 from the price; I will order some extras to sell for maybe $10 to $20 more for those who are late to the group buy, to help very slightly ameliorate the project cost overruns including all the DHL Express mailing of the key sets a month or so ago.

So $35 + shipping is the group buy price? Meaning the "late to the party" price is $45 to $55, for a single F XT foam?

Incidentally, are all unshipped orders of foam in general (77, 122, etc.) the new type you discussed recently? Will the XT foam also be the new material?

I am hoping for some more feedback on the video itself. So far one feedback is that the video is a good first step and another feedback is that narration should be added to the video (anyone here with a microphone and a mellifluous voice? haha) but the main question is are all the steps in the video logical and easy to follow?

I didn't actually say "narration should be added to the video", I said that it would be much more likely to engage users if it was narrated and showed a screen recording of the steps being carried out in real time. Simply adding voiceover to video consisting of a sequence of static walls of text and screenshots isn't necessarily a significant improvement, though it would probably still be an improvement.

The steps being easy to follow or not is dependent not only upon the actual instructions themselves but also how they are presented. As it stands, they are presented in just about the worst way possible, short of the text being in dark grey Comic Sans or something...

I'd perhaps offer my dulcet Celtic tones if it weren't for the fact that my order (with its UK layout and various other keycaps and spare parts) is yet to ship so I can't go through the process properly until I get a keyboard.

Currently the comprehensive Model F Manual PDF at the above link is being updated by darkcruix with these steps, so people will have an option for both PDF and video.

This is good. This information as presented makes sense as text, but not as a "video" unless it's actually tailored to the video format and utilising its benefits (e.g. as I described).

Another issue with Via - I am not aware of a way to quickly change between default layouts without having to reflash the firmware anyways. For example let's say an F77 user wants to switch from the 0-9 right side block to the Ins/Del/etc. right side block. If Via is currently on the keyboard, the user can manually change each key in that block without needing to reflash, but in under a minute the user could have flashed another precompiled Via firmware in my zip file (in the video description) with the desired right side block.

A technophobic customer is not going to care if it takes 5 minutes to sit there manually remapping individual keys in a GUI because it will still be significantly faster for them. Consider that the alternative is searching for and hopefully finding your 16-minute text wall slideshow, finding and downloading software and drivers, trying to follow along with your instructions (presumably with a lot of pausing and skipping backwards to re-read things), and probably getting frustrated to a indeterminate degree whether it works or not. Incidentally, I tried using Atmel Flip for the first time not too long ago, and it just straight up would not work at all because the drivers didn't want to install, and that was after a lot of mucking about with Java versions to make the application itself even start at all. When it did start, it refused to interface with the USB device because the drivers wouldn't install for whatever reason. Comparatively, both QMK Toolbox and avrdude (which is used by QMK Toolbox) successfully installed working drivers and flashed firmware correctly first try when I tested one then the other, uninstalling the drivers in between for the sake of the test.

[Ellipse]

Chyros has just posted his F77 review! It is amazing as you may have guessed. My comments posted on YouTube are included below the embedded video.

Another thorough and well-researched review Chyros! Thanks again for putting this together. One of the single best history-infused overviews of the IBM Model F keyboards I have come across - so many facts in here. Some thoughts on the review are below.



Your microphone captured the keyboard sound test well - sounds like your keyboard is in the room with me! It's tough to position the microphone at just the right distance from the keyboard to capture the sound well as you did.



My first major thought is on the discussion of the firmware that I wanted to share with everyone: based on your commentary regarding frustrations with the firmware documentation in the manual, as shown in your video as of a few days ago I now direct newcomers to a new step by step introductory video to help those looking to get started with reprogramming their keyboard. It's only for those who want to change the layout or add additional keys on the function layer. I am still completely puzzled on why the firmware did not work and would have probably appreciated some additional visual documentation on your efforts to diagnose what happened or what error messages you were seeing when you were on the beta QMK site for example (this documentation is not for reasons of schadenfreude, I promise!). I am sorry you had a bad experience with the two QMK-based firmware options - this should not have happened to anyone using a Model F.



The new step by step firmware video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Esj2gZ0XptE proves that the same layout files and resources I have linked to in the video description work 100% and without modification or requirements of additional third party resources. I only wish I could have produced this earlier in time for you but now my hope is that it helps everyone going forward. There are a bunch of steps and they all have to be done in order



A message to all worried about the Model F firmware - please watch the brand new Model F firmware video I just made (see link above) to see how simple it is. All that's needed is to follow the steps in the video which all have both a screen capture as well as written descriptions. Again this is not meant to be an insult and is not meant to be directed at anyone in particular or anyone who has had trouble with my subpar documentation, or with QMK in general in the past. I feel that my video makes the firmware programming as simple as firmware programming can be for lay persons and that anyone can begin to make layout changes by watching the video. In minutes you can be up and running with either QMK or Via reprogramming (as a note all keyboards come custom programmed with the layout you ordered so the firmware talk is only for those who want to change something easily).



Chyros, there is one most important thing that was left out of your review, and I was surprised for sure as the video was otherwise 100% comprehensive. I understand that you were under significant time constraints and understandably did not have any further time for troubleshooting, so I can understand why it was not included. The review does not mention the simplicity and continued availability of programming the original xwhatsit firmware (for which full instructions are available in the manual on the project web site). You seem to not like QMK and Via in general and have expressed familiarity with the original xwhatsit firmware. Why not start there, even though QMK was what was loaded as the default? Of course I agree that all firmwares offered with the project should be equally accessible and easy to use and so any frustrations should not have happened with reprogramming a Model F.



As a note to everyone, when you want to adjust the factory default layout you have to flash new firmware to the keyboard no matter what, so instead of flashing QMK or Via, one could just have easily flashed the original xwhatsit firmware which continues to work on the original and new Model F keyboards. Admittedly there are some limitations of the old firmware that helped encourage adding Model F support to alternatives like QMK and Via (Via is built on QMK but with a downloadable offline GUI program), such as improved auto-calibration logic in the two QMK-based offerings. The xwhatsit firmware does support layout adjustments, function layers, macros, solenoids, LEDs and more, just like QMK and Via.



The video noted that I did not write a firmware manual. This is correct as there is currently one comprehensive manual available and already written for the Model F QMK and for the xwhatsit firmware, and forum member darkcruix is adding to the Model F Via documentation in the comprehensive Model F manual, separate from my own more intermediate manual. Each manual has its own link in the firmware section, which has been updated based on the recent feedback. I am not a developer and have been very grateful to all the folks who have helped improve the firmware and documentation of the Model F including most especially Deskthority.net users pandrew and darkcruix.



The review also shows a screenshot of my "all in one place" Zip file of layouts and firmware available for download. Specifying more concretely which file to use is certainly something I should have addressed more clearly in the manual; I have now specified exactly which file to use in the new firmware video linked to above.



The review points out a reference to a confusing QMK toolbox program which was recently switched to a more user-friendly program and documented in the step by step firmware video. QMK Toolbox is no longer required or recommended for any Model F related tasks.



Regarding the space bar sounds, the manual now includes a section on modding the space bar to change its sound and feel as Chyros noted in the video - so many mods are possible with Model F keyboards to personalize them more to individual tastes. There are even floss mods and grease mods to reduce the sound when typing and ways of making the space bar quieter or louder, looser or tighter.



The video mentioned that the keyboard doesn't work well with USB hubs and alleged that the information was not anywhere to be found. This information was actually already in the project web site manual - Troubleshooting - section D. There are so many little but important tips and advice that I cannot really prioritize everything at the top - everyone really should go over the manual as fully as you can manage before setting things up, especially if you are trying to do more advanced tasks related to the firmware and especially if something is not working. Outside of the firmware, the troubleshooting section especially is completely and fully documented for troubleshooting any common Model F issue and fixing it as quickly as possible. As a note, I added the usb hub note to the manual last year, shortly after receiving this advice from a Model F user and shortly after sharing it in my post here: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11046&p=466816&hilit=hub#p466816



Regarding the pitch of the springs, I have posted a comparison video of several of my own original Model F keyboards compared to one of the new Model F reproduction keyboards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRlw7loUw7I In my experience every Model F keyboard sounds slightly different and my video demonstrates that some Model F keyboards have higher pitches and others have lower pitches than the reproductions, and I agree that the sound of the reproductions will probably change over future decades as the metal springs oxidize and corrode over time (as Chyros mentioned has likely happened to the original springs).



Thanks again Chyros for the immense amount of your time to help tell people about Model F keyboards! For all watchers of this review I hope that you will look more into Model F keyboards and let others know about them, whether the old ones from IBM on eBay that you can take apart and restore or the new reproduction ones. The best place to read what people say about them is on the mechanical keyboard forums like Deskthority, geekhack, and reddit/r/MechanicalKeyboards. The most important thing that can be done for Model F keyboards is to get the word out so that more people can discover them, whether they remember using the old IBM keyboards many years ago or whether they are just exploring all mechanical keyboards for the first time. The Model F keyboards really are the best keyboards for typing in my view.

[Sheepless]

I can't wait for the 20th, to see how much swearing is involved!

+1 I have the same goal!

And the answer is: a lot of swearing!

[raoulduke-esq]

I love how Chyros’ videos are not monetized but the “how to use the firmware” video is.

[nickg]

oh hype the printed key caps boards are finally shipping! Been waiting since 2015, hopefully not too much longer now...

[goomba_]

is this when production is ceasing?

[Bjerrk]

is this when production is ceasing?

In all likelihood: No.

See this comment by ytirohtksek and the surrounding discussion, as well as this comment.

[troglotype]

I want to push back a bit on some claims about the documentation. I agree that a more simplified documentation could have been produced and fleshed out more by me but the documentation provided by pandrew and darkcruix is excellent and very thorough, many pages long, and I don't think anyone could say that they are inadequate. Every contributor to the firmware has done a great job in my opinion, though maybe I could have added more prominent links to these documents so they could be found more easily - maybe some people thought they did not exist (I have recently updated the manual on the project web site to help address some issues).

And I want to stand by my claims about the documentation. When it comes to documenting firmware (xwhatsit, QMK, VIA) and especially programming the keyboard, the documentation is (still) too difficult for non-technical users. I didn't mind going through the forum and look for the information I needed and once everything is set up it works like a charm. Most "enthusiasts" with time and patience won't have any problem doing that. But those lacking patience (Chyros) and non-technical users will experience problems and most likely give up.

As for your video, it is not the documentation required for non-technical users. For example, one minute in you ask people to download Atmel Flip and refer to the link in the description. The link leads to a download for Windows and Linux. But it doesn't tell the user how to install a JRE to run flip. And, even more importantly, users of macOS won't see a download link for their operating system. One minute in and they are stuck.

I know, this is all very trivial to figure out for users with some background. But for non-technical users it's not. To write proper documentation you have to put yourself into the shoes of a non-technical, non-enthusiast user and give them step-by-step instructions. And you have to do so for all three general use operating systems (Windows, macOS, Linux).

Thomas was maybe a bit obstinate when it came to firmware and reprogramming. But only a little (enough for some amazingly colorful language) and he reflects very well what a non-technical user experiences once they decide they want to reprogram the brand-new Model F keyboard.

It's too bad, because it's really trivial, when explained step-by-step. And your repro Model F keyboard is an absolutely amazing achievement that makes typing a pure joy every single day.

Edit: words

[Ellipse]

Update: New transparent cap reproductions now available to order, for delivery around year end 2021 (not until the keyboards have gone out - getting the keyboards out is my continued top priority)

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product ... -cap-stem/

Check out the first sample units from the new molds in the below photo - the caps are super-clear!

2021-06-21 relegendable cap first samples cropped.jpg (185.35 KiB) Viewed 6649 times

As requested by many people asking about these caps, I have ordered a new mold for these transparent relendable caps based on the exact dimensions of the original IBM 4704 transparent (now yellowed!) caps. The relegendable caps allowed banks using 4704 terminals to put in specific function keys before the days of the GUI for IBM mainframes and terminals, so it is definitely in line with the 4704 reproduction project. Nowadays they can be used for designing your own key, to open a specific program, to run a particular macro, etc.

The plan is to offer the lowered pricing currently shown on the product page for the group buy folks and then to increase pricing once they are actually in stock, to help cover project cost overruns and pay for the new molds.

Ordering one unit of this product gives you one clear relegendable cap and one Model F / Model M compatible stem. The stem will be provided in assorted colors - you can't pick, but you won't see it anyways once your relegendable paper label is installed.

I am aware that Fentek may still have some transparent caps in a non-original design at lower prices and I recall that a Deskthority forum member has posted a comparison of original vs. fentek caps.

This is the only place to get these IBM-style reproduction transparent caps, unless you buy an original 4704 keyboard that happens to have these caps (if you can find one!).

You can access a template for printing your keys here: workshop-f7/ibm-4704-model-f-model-m-tr ... t9794.html

[Ellipse]

Also can anyone help with setting the correct / official JIS layout? Here's what someone sent me as a draft:

jis.png (29.44 KiB) Viewed 6637 times

[darkcruix]

Update: New transparent cap reproductions now available to order, for delivery around year end 2021 (not until the keyboards have gone out - getting the keyboards out is my continued top priority)

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product ... -cap-stem/

Check out the first sample units from the new molds in the below photo - the caps are super-clear!

2021-06-21 relegendable cap first samples cropped.jpg

As requested by many people asking about these caps, I have ordered a new mold for these transparent relendable caps based on the exact dimensions of the original IBM 4704 transparent (now yellowed!) caps. The relegendable caps allowed banks using 4704 terminals to put in specific function keys before the days of the GUI for IBM mainframes and terminals, so it is definitely in line with the 4704 reproduction project. Nowadays they can be used for designing your own key, to open a specific program, to run a particular macro, etc.

The plan is to offer the lowered pricing currently shown on the product page for the group buy folks and then to increase pricing once they are actually in stock, to help cover project cost overruns and pay for the new molds.

Ordering one unit of this product gives you one clear relegendable cap and one Model F / Model M compatible stem. The stem will be provided in assorted colors - you can't pick, but you won't see it anyways once your relegendable paper label is installed.

I am aware that Fentek may still have some transparent caps in a non-original design at lower prices and I recall that a Deskthority forum member has posted a comparison of original vs. fentek caps.

This is the only place to get these IBM-style reproduction transparent caps, unless you buy an original 4704 keyboard that happens to have these caps (if you can find one!).

You can access a template for printing your keys here: workshop-f7/ibm-4704-model-f-model-m-tr ... t9794.html

YES - that is great news ... here's a demo of some original F107 clear keys on a F77:

IMG_1556.jpeg (169.2 KiB) Viewed 6619 times

[raoulduke-esq]

Will ordering the relegendables add further delays to outstanding orders of split-shipping printed keycaps, solenoids, etc.?

[an_achronism]

Here, has anybody who has the new "XT" style caps from the GB installed and tested them on a Model M? I've heard that taking actual IBM F caps and putting them on an M or vice versa can be a bit hit or miss because of different plastics (IIRC the caps are smoother but barrels are rougher on one than the other, and vice versa). Curious to know how good or bad the keyfeel of Ellipse's new caps are on a Model M rather than on the F62/77 or an original F.

[Ellipse]

Help request: Model F code refactoring for QMK submission?

Would anyone be able to help with refactoring pandrew's Model F code for submission to the QMK project? I am hoping to have this expedited to simplify the process of changing the Model F layout. It is my understanding that QMK will not accept the code as it stands. If interested feel free to reply here or PM me for more information relayed to me from pandrew. pandrew has already been instrumental with bringing QMK to the Model F and it would be great if some people could help bring QMK Model F to the main branch for greater visibility and simplicity.

raoulduke-esq: No, relegendables will be shipped separately - I recommend putting them in a completely separate order if possible (not required). The store now shows a small shipping charge for order add-ons not shipping with a keyboard (the free shipping option is still available to pick during checkout), so it can ship without complicating existing orders.

[Senescent]

I've had my F77 for a while and I recently switched from the xwhatsit firmware to VIA. So far almost everything has been working great. However, I've run into one issue that I'm not sure how to fix. I ordered a solenoid a while back and in preparation of getting it, I tried to bind the HPT_TOG command to a key. I tried doing this by clicking the key, going to special, adding "Any", and then typing the HPT_TOG command. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to work and the key remains blank.

Does anyone know how to properly bind this using VIA?

[Wazrach]

Here, has anybody who has the new "XT" style caps from the GB installed and tested them on a Model M? I've heard that taking actual IBM F caps and putting them on an M or vice versa can be a bit hit or miss because of different plastics (IIRC the caps are smoother but barrels are rougher on one than the other, and vice versa). Curious to know how good or bad the keyfeel of Ellipse's new caps are on a Model M rather than on the F62/77 or an original F.

Put original Model F caps on your Model M and see for yourself. It should feel a bit smoother and crisper.

[jmaynard]

Would anyone be able to help with refactoring pandrew's Model F code for submission to the QMK project? I am hoping to have this expedited to simplify the process of changing the Model F layout. It is my understanding that QMK will not accept the code as it stands. If interested feel free to reply here or PM me for more information relayed to me from pandrew. pandrew has already been instrumental with bringing QMK to the Model F and it would be great if some people could help bring QMK Model F to the main branch for greater visibility and simplicity.

OK, I'l bite: what's wrong with pandrew's code as it stands? Is it available on Github to take a look at?

[an_achronism]

Put original Model F caps on your Model M and see for yourself. It should feel a bit smoother and crisper.

I mean yeah I can do that but the repro caps and originals aren't identical. Extremely similar I'm sure, but not identical, so I don't know if it's a reasonable assumption to make that the keyfeel will be the same when you put 'em on a keyboard. Hence the question, hahah.

If I recall correctly, on the original stuff, the barrels of an F (XT/AT anyway) are less smooth than those of an M, but the keyswitch stems are the other way around. So F keys in an M should be nice, but although you can use M keys in an F, there might be a tad more friction going on. But I know that plenty of people have used Unicomp keys in the F77 so I assume the barrels are different (smoother like M barrels, which I guess might have something to do with the keys appearing to have a fair amount of play rotationally) or perhaps the difference is just small enough for it not to really matter.

Anyway I was asking because I might put Ellipse's keys in my M(s), basically.

[nik137]

Would anyone be able to help with refactoring pandrew's Model F code for submission to the QMK project? I am hoping to have this expedited to simplify the process of changing the Model F layout. It is my understanding that QMK will not accept the code as it stands. If interested feel free to reply here or PM me for more information relayed to me from pandrew. pandrew has already been instrumental with bringing QMK to the Model F and it would be great if some people could help bring QMK Model F to the main branch for greater visibility and simplicity.

OK, I'l bite: what's wrong with pandrew's code as it stands? Is it available on Github to take a look at?

I have no idea what's not up to QMKs standards, but his git repo is available at http://purdea.ro/qmk_firmware/

[cwcowell]

First one is very similar to cwcowell's situation above - one key wasn't buckling, and jiggling or stretching the spring didn't help, as per the manual video I decided to try pulling it off and reattaching it. The spring looks fine visually, but I just can't get it to attach when pushing down with tweezers. Is there some technique to it other than what's shown in the video (aka "just kinda push it down onto the knob, by grabbing it relatively low with the tweezers and compressing down")? Or is it just a matter of persistance until it manages to latch on?

Persistence was the solution in my case. I probably tried the tweezers method 10 or 12 times before it magically worked.

My technique: I put a sewing needle down the middle of the spring, with the sewing needle perched on the top of the nub, in order to keep the spring centered on the nub. Then I used tweezers to slide the whole spring down onto the nub. I tried to grip the spring as close to the bottom as possible, so it wouldn't compress and buckle as I was pressing it onto the nub. It's possible I slightly twisted the spring clockwise or counterclockwise as I pushed it down, but I didn't consciously do so. I wish I had a more concrete trick for you, but honestly I'm not sure why my first 9 attempts failed and my 10th succeeded. Goes without saying, but I did NOT have to disassemble the case in order to do this.

Did you get it working?

[Ellipse]

Regarding the QMK code, some help is needed with refactoring - involves moving code around but a little more required than that. So far one forum member is helping out but a few more will help lighten the load - please let me know over PM if you are a developer who can help. "I have been told that significant refactoring will be needed [...] for instance, I've been asked to make capsense routines a core component"

regarding the tweezer method for the springs, it is important to have tweezers matching the ones in my video for best results, not the smaller tweezers that do not have a completely flat end of sufficient length. Other tools should not be needed then.

[Bjerrk]

First one is very similar to cwcowell's situation above - one key wasn't buckling, and jiggling or stretching the spring didn't help, as per the manual video I decided to try pulling it off and reattaching it. The spring looks fine visually, but I just can't get it to attach when pushing down with tweezers. Is there some technique to it other than what's shown in the video (aka "just kinda push it down onto the knob, by grabbing it relatively low with the tweezers and compressing down")? Or is it just a matter of persistance until it manages to latch on?

Persistence was the solution in my case. I probably tried the tweezers method 10 or 12 times before it magically worked.

My technique: I put a sewing needle down the middle of the spring, with the sewing needle perched on the top of the nub, in order to keep the spring centered on the nub. Then I used tweezers to slide the whole spring down onto the nub. I tried to grip the spring as close to the bottom as possible, so it wouldn't compress and buckle as I was pressing it onto the nub. It's possible I slightly twisted the spring clockwise or counterclockwise as I pushed it down, but I didn't consciously do so. I wish I had a more concrete trick for you, but honestly I'm not sure why my first 9 attempts failed and my 10th succeeded. Goes without saying, but I did NOT have to disassemble the case in order to do this.

Did you get it working?

I find that the cocktail stick method works the best (for me). You take a wooden cocktail stick (the kind with a pointed conical end) with a suitable diameter for holding on to the spring. Once the spring is firmly in place on the end of the cocktail stick, you can squeeze/screw the spring into the flipper.

[cwcowell]

Has anyone who used the split-ship option to get their key-less keyboard early, received keycaps yet? I couldn't quite tell from the updates on the modelfkeyboards.com website whether he's shipping separate keycaps yet.

[Ellipse]

Not yet outside of a handful of early bird tooling and all in stock single digit supporters several months ago; as noted in recent forum posts the priority for the next few months is to continue mailing out more keyboards for the early birds and for those who have been waiting a long time for the keyboard. Key sets for the split shippers will go out starting in several months. Sorry to keep everyone waiting as I am now the bottleneck.

[clickclack]

Not wanted to be that guy but do single digit supporters get to skip any of the queue for additional key sets? I so want my printed dark greys.

[Ellipse]

Thank you for the additional support clickclack. The separate shipping dark gray and blue sets will be going out beginning in several months from now and starting with the single digit "all in stock" orders, but I have just mailed yours after seeing your post

[wolfman]

I have put Pandrew's QMK firmware code on to my github account. I forked the QMK firmware master and placed Pandrew's code into the "pandrew_24-jun-2021" branch.

Link to the "pandrew_24-jun-2021" branch on my github account.
https://github.com/matthew-wolf-n4mtt/q ... s/xwhatsit

My changes to Pandrew's are in the "mjw_xwhatsit" branch on my github account. All I have done so far is change file names and quick review of the code.
https://github.com/matthew-wolf-n4mtt/q ... s/xwhatsit

[clickclack]

Thank you for the additional support clickclack. The separate shipping dark gray and blue sets will be going out beginning in several months from now and starting with the single digit "all in stock" orders, but I have just mailed yours after seeing your post

Thanks!

[Ellipse]

Those who know about JIS, please review the proposed JIS layout attached, as updated by a forum member here. Is this representative of the JIS layout on an IBM keyboard (obviously with fewer keys for the F77 or F62)?

Something similar to this, with the exception of the blank key that should have been the printed 1.25U key supplied by Unicomp.

qmk test.PNG (39.76 KiB) Viewed 6969 times