Recreating the Lisp keyboard (10 years later)

[inozenz]

Finally, I got the time to make video on making a keycap! I have been asked to make a custom ESC key based on an SVG graphics. I took this as an opportunity to make video of the whole process. Here it is:

Also, I have made a new mix featuring all different types of switches used so far:

WOW I'm speechless. The first video is so valuable and full of knowledge condensed into 5 minutes. I am very greatfull for your work. It was one of my goals to create my own keycaps. I had a slight idea on how to do that, but your video isn't missing a single step and it's fool proof. Thank you!!

[Bjerrk]

Finally, I got the time to make video on making a keycap! I have been asked to make a custom ESC key based on an SVG graphics. I took this as an opportunity to make video of the whole process. Here it is:

That. Was. Amazing.

[inmbolmie]

I thought the process had to be ridiculously complex, but the reality is beyond my imagination.

How in the hell do you manage to get rid of air bubbles? Are you using extra equipment not shown in the video like pressure pump/vacuum chambers?

[lispnick]

I thought the process had to be ridiculously complex, but the reality is beyond my imagination.

How in the hell do you manage to get rid of air bubbles? Are you using extra equipment not shown in the video like pressure pump/vacuum chambers?

Yes. The silicone is degassed in a vacuum chamber before pouring and the polyurethane cures in a pressure chamber at 60 PSI.

[Go-Kart]

God damn dude. What you're doing is so damn cool.

[TNT]

It blows my mind that you're doing all of this on your own

[darkcruix]

It blows my mind that you're doing all of this on your own

And the quality of the outcome ... wow!
If you didn't have all the tooling available, I bet there was some investment required...

[inozenz]

It blows my mind that you're doing all of this on your own

And the quality of the outcome ... wow!
If you didn't have all the tooling available, I bet there was some investment required...

If i saw everything right, its quite inexpencive if you exclude the cnc machine.
At my university we got a cnc machine open for the public, so if you have a project, you are able to use it.
In my case that is waht i am going to do. I got more then enough legos xD

[SneakyRobb]

Hi,

This thread is amazing. Your keycap making abilities are super excellent. Absolutely outstanding work!

Robb

[darkcruix]

Hi,

This thread is amazing. Your keycap making abilities are super excellent. Absolutely outstanding work!

Robb

Now Robb, I hope you get the same game up for the BeamSpring caps

[SneakyRobb]

Hi,

This thread is amazing. Your keycap making abilities are super excellent. Absolutely outstanding work!

Robb

Now Robb, I hope you get the same game up for the BeamSpring caps

Hah. Feel very attacked!!! I actually have all the chemicals to make these sort of keycaps, just need the time and will. I am also building an acid etching station to directly make beamsprings now.

[darkcruix]

Hi,

This thread is amazing. Your keycap making abilities are super excellent. Absolutely outstanding work!

Robb

Now Robb, I hope you get the same game up for the BeamSpring caps

Hah. Feel very attacked!!! I actually have all the chemicals to make these sort of keycaps, just need the time and will. I am also building an acid etching station to directly make beamsprings now.

Just teasing you Love what you do...

[Bjerrk]

Hi lispnick,
I've been keeping an eye on your project (that sounded more ominous than it should) - heck, I made the first commend on this thread.
I just wanted to applaud what you've done with the website. It's very professional and informative while clearly staying true to the geeky nature of the project.

[lispnick]

Hi lispnick,
I've been keeping an eye on your project (that sounded more ominous than it should) - heck, I made the first commend on this thread.
I just wanted to applaud what you've done with the website. It's very professional and informative while clearly staying true to the geeky nature of the project.

Thanks! This was my first larger web after more than 20 years. It took a while to make it, the technologies have somewhat changed during the past two decades, my art of making CGI scripts in Perl was useless.

[Bjerrk]

Thanks! This was my first larger web after more than 20 years. It took a while to make it, the technologies have somewhat changed during the past two decades, my art of making CGI scripts in Perl was useless.

Haha, yeah, I remember as a teenager trying to decide whether to learn Perl or Python and thinking that maybe I better learn Perl

Now that I have you: have you considered doing a keyboard in the general style of the current keymacs, but with a more contemporary layout? I hope it isn't sacrilege to suggest

[lispnick]

Thanks! This was my first larger web after more than 20 years. It took a while to make it, the technologies have somewhat changed during the past two decades, my art of making CGI scripts in Perl was useless.

Haha, yeah, I remember as a teenager trying to decide whether to learn Perl or Python and thinking that maybe I better learn Perl

Now that I have you: have you considered doing a keyboard in the general style of the current keymacs, but with a more contemporary layout? I hope it isn't sacrilege to suggest

My primary focus right now is on improving of the moulding process. The maintenance of the moulds is a real pain in the ass and the new process should be more efficient. I am in the middle of preliminary tests and the results seem to be promising. If everything goes well, an alternative ANSI/ISO-style layout that would fit in the case is just a small step. I hope to make some interesting announcements by the end of the summer.

[Go-Kart]

[...] I hope to make some interesting announcements by the end of the summer.

Loving all this. Looking forward to it.

[Menuhin]

How could I missed this thread for so many months...!
I'm glad the soul of the Lisp Symbolic keyboard may find a new home.

Not only the design of this keyboard structure, hand casting of these new key caps is also an epic endeavor. I know this design is not meant to be mass produced or to earn money with orders of high volume, but in case if your design support also MX style switches, the orders might increase multiple folds.

Looking forward to seeing more people showing off their long awaited Keymacs keyboards.

[lispnick]

How could I missed this thread for so many months...!
I'm glad the soul of the Lisp Symbolic keyboard may find a new home.

Thank you!

How could I missed this thread for so many months...!
Not only the design of this keyboard structure, hand casting of these new key caps is also an epic endeavor. I know this design is not meant to be mass produced or to earn money with orders of high volume, but in case if your design support also MX style switches, the orders might increase multiple folds.

In order to fit MX switches in the case, I would have to rise the mount plate. Actually, I have already considered a solution that would allow to have both the Alps plate in the present position, and the MX plate little bit higher (not simultaneously, of course), … so theoretically it should be possible to support MX in the next revision. I just do not know if I should do that. The world of MX and all the ‘custom keebs’ is scary, … it all just seems to be about pastel-colored cerakote-painted rgb-backlit aviator-cable-wrapped keebs on MX clones with color-matching GMK keycaps and a handful of carefully selected artisan keys. I do not know if it is wise to jump the bandwagon. I am not saying ‘no’, I just really don't know. What do you think?

[Go-Kart]

I think making an MX-compatible, dare I say, hot-swap, board opens up a much greater market. However, if you look at all those Instagram-type keyboard enthusiasts that have never even heard of Alps switches - would they be interested in a Symbolics board? They all seem to like 65-75 % form factors. I mean, I think if they had a go on one of your boards, Alps switches, the build quality, the sheer sound of the thing, they'd change their minds! But would making an MX version coax them in? Maybe. It seems to be that they care about their key cap sets as much as much as the rest of the board. We're all aware about the near limitless choice MX style switches offer in terms of key cap customisation.

I'd say test the waters. If you wish to make a real go of it and get a bunch of orders in, furnish some YouTubers with some sample boards. That Taeh Types guy, Tae Keyboards, Chyros, etc.. They make some content, you read the comments and you should be able to get a sense of the general feeling of where to steer the ship.

[raoulduke-esq]

Making this keyboard with MX is like making a 3278 with rubber domes imo.

[mrprofessor]

Making this keyboard with MX is like making a 3278 with rubber domes imo.

Well, There some good MX switches too. Kalih Box clickies sound better than Alps, IMO.

[Go-Kart]

Heresey!

[Menuhin]

...
The world of MX and all the ‘custom keebs’ is scary, … it all just seems to be about pastel-colored cerakote-painted rgb-backlit aviator-cable-wrapped keebs on MX clones with color-matching GMK keycaps and a handful of carefully selected artisan keys
...

You managed to summarize "the situation" of 'custom keebs' quite well in one sentence...

At least > 75% accurate.

As I read the keymacs site and get to know that the project is managed by a small family business, my suggestion of capturing part of the MX-custom market aims to provide some funding to subsidize the Alps section of the project. And perhaps even can therefore lower the cost of Alps section to make it more accessible to more people (except for the limited availability of vintages Alps switches, which I already have as parts and intact in my very tiny vintage keyboard collection... ) I don't have the luck to try out the more exotic variants like those ambers/stripped ambers, and neon greens, but I do value Alps more among the clicky and tactiles. And my unpopular opinion on tactile switches has always been Topre > Alps variants >>> MX-based design and that it is impossible to achieve tactile design that feels as nice as Topre or orange/cream/brown Alps with the fine-tuning of such a bump on the MX-switch stems. I do like MX-switch for their linear design implementation, as their design has much less non-center key press binding issue.

Another incentive to suggest capturing also the MX-switch market for me is that - I have (perhaps / almost) the whole set of Signature Plastics SA key caps that might fit the keymacs, designed by 7bit. What impresses me a lot is the attention to details of the Lisp machine keyboard, such as the profile and key cap materials. The project goes unarguably further than 7bit, the member who is already quite dedicated to this keyboard, and unfortunately has not yet emerge again for some time.

Some profits will make projects more sustainable, perhaps like the modern Hall-effect magnet keyboards, and the MT3 profile key caps. Therefore I also hope your project will become actually profitable for your family, and that your dedication to remember this important piece of history in the development of 20th century AI will pay off.

[lispnick]

I think making an MX-compatible, dare I say, hot-swap, board opens up a much greater market. However, if you look at all those Instagram-type keyboard enthusiasts that have never even heard of Alps switches - would they be interested in a Symbolics board? They all seem to like 65-75 % form factors. I mean, I think if they had a go on one of your boards, Alps switches, the build quality, the sheer sound of the thing, they'd change their minds! But would making an MX version coax them in? Maybe. It seems to be that they care about their key cap sets as much as much as the rest of the board. We're all aware about the near limitless choice MX style switches offer in terms of key cap customisation.

When I was thinking about making something more conventional that fits the contemporaty 65-75 % form factors and, at the same time, something that would not be an insult to the lisp machine legacy, I came with this idea: I can use the case bottom as it is and make a dedicated case top with space for the usual ANSI/ISO TKL layouts, Alps and MX compatible with dual mount plate heights. MX lovers would be able to furnish it with whatever pandas and keycaps they want + for those curious there will always be the possibility to try out Alps with my own keycaps in the same case and, maybe, switch to the Symbolics layout later by buying a new top.

[andreas]

Hey Lispnick,

the way I see it… you set out to build the Keymacs based on your love and passion for the Symbolics. It turned into a unique and premium product — it's what YOU wanted it to be.

I've told you this before — what you have created, the keyboard, the process, the web front- and backend is awe-inspiring.

If you feel good about adding options like MX switches to address the needs of more users that value your creation — go for it.

If you feel the need to serve a wider market to help your business then I'd reevaluate that market thoroughly. What does that market want? What is it about your current offering that keeps that market from buying? Price, layout/design, switch type? Marketing? Can you create a competitive product for that market? Can you scale your operations to meet potential demands and support? Are there requests to warrant such an investment and turn a profit? You know best what investments you face in developing such an offering. Just some thoughts.

About your summarization of the "Keeb Scene"…
I think it's an apt observation of the current situation. More of the same "keeb builds" on YT, KT and IG seems to shape the habits and drive the needs of that community. It feels more like an "ego-driven photography show-off" than an actual passion for keyboards as an input device.

As always all the best to you.
Andreas

[lispnick]

Another incentive to suggest capturing also the MX-switch market for me is that - I have (perhaps / almost) the whole set of Signature Plastics SA key caps that might fit the keymacs, designed by 7bit. What impresses me a lot is the attention to details of the Lisp machine keyboard, such as the profile and key cap materials. The project goes unarguably further than 7bit, the member who is already quite dedicated to this keyboard, and unfortunately has not yet emerge again for some time.

This is interesting, … I almost forgot about that set but it seems to be one of the valid arguments for including the support of MX in the future—of course, the question whether SAs belong on MX switches mounted on a flat mount plate is another matter (it seems to be more suitable for a stepped mount plate with 11º slope).

Some profits will make projects more sustainable, perhaps like the modern Hall-effect magnet keyboards, and the MT3 profile key caps. Therefore I also hope your project will become actually profitable for your family, and that your dedication to remember this important piece of history in the development of 20th century AI will pay off.

I must admit that after seeing the Wooting Two Lekker Edition review by Chyros, I am more tempted than before. Perhaps not the best sounding switches but the sound is also a matter of the enclosure and the keycaps, …

[lispnick]

If you feel the need to serve a wider market to help your business then I'd reevaluate that market thoroughly. What does that market want? What is it about your current offering that keeps that market from buying? Price, layout/design, switch type? Marketing? Can you create a competitive product for that market? Can you scale your operations to meet potential demands and support? Are there requests to warrant such an investment and turn a profit? You know best what investments you face in developing such an offering. Just some thoughts.

Actually, I am satisfied with the results I have so far. For something that is really much different from the mainstream and given the fact I have invested zero energy (and resources) in promoting the project (except for starting this thread and making few videos), I consider it to be a success. I make 2.3 keyboards per month on average, my theoretical capacity is 4. I am still operating in the red but the turning point is approaching. On the other hand, I am a bit concerned about the availability of switches. Most of the builds I made are on vintage Alps, my stash is almost empty, … and I do not have resources of vintage Alps, most of the switches were bought from eBay at inflated prices. Then there are the Matiases—controversial switches for a lot of people especially because the reliability of the contact mechanism. Of course, for somebody who thinks that MX blues are the best clicky switches the Matiases must be like something divine, but this is not the case for real switch aficionados. So I think in the future I can go in three directions: 1) Alps/Matias-only, 2) Alps/MX dual system with emphasis on Alps, MX as optional, 3) do not waste energy on MX and focus on introducing my own Alps clone.

[raoulduke-esq]

A complicated Alps clone? That would be a dream come true.

[inozenz]

If you feel the need to serve a wider market to help your business then I'd reevaluate that market thoroughly. What does that market want? What is it about your current offering that keeps that market from buying? Price, layout/design, switch type? Marketing? Can you create a competitive product for that market? Can you scale your operations to meet potential demands and support? Are there requests to warrant such an investment and turn a profit? You know best what investments you face in developing such an offering. Just some thoughts.

Actually, I am satisfied with the results I have so far. For something that is really much different from the mainstream and given the fact I have invested zero energy (and resources) in promoting the project (except for starting this thread and making few videos), I consider it to be a success. I make 2.3 keyboards per month on average, my theoretical capacity is 4. I am still operating in the red but the turning point is approaching. On the other hand, I am a bit concerned about the availability of switches. Most of the builds I made are on vintage Alps, my stash is almost empty, … and I do not have resources of vintage Alps, most of the switches were bought from eBay at inflated prices. Then there are the Matiases—controversial switches for a lot of people especially because the reliability of the contact mechanism. Of course, for somebody who thinks that MX blues are the best clicky switches the Matiases must be like something divine, but this is not the case for real switch aficionados. So I think in the future I can go in three directions: 1) Alps/Matias-only, 2) Alps/MX dual system with emphasis on Alps, MX as optional, 3) do not waste energy on MX and focus on introducing my own Alps clone.

As i observe the reproductions of ellipse, be it buckling spring or beamspring switch, i can say with certainty that you too have the skills to create your own switch reproduction. One thing i often notice is that those who don't stay true to their own character end up failing. Of course, it's probably more lucrative to offer your keyboards with mx style switches, but then your keyboards would only be worth half as much in my eyes. I hope that one day I will have enough money left to buy one of your keyboards, that would be an honour for me.