Alps Lubricant FOUND!

[NeK]

Tbh dirt is the least of the issues. The whole point is it to make the plastic stem surfaces as smooth and polished as possible. I use a dremel with felt tip to polish them one by one. Also the metal leafs need to be polished as well. And all of that before adding any kind of lube.

I'm very skeptical of this, it's not about literally being as smooth as possible, completely flat surfaces can be highly frictional. It's about reducing friction. NOS alps sliders have a leathered appearance, but the switch housing itself is smooth, one slide leathered and the other smooth has less contact area, and no meshing of rough surfaces.

My worst condition blue sliders have seen so much use they have worn smooth, unlubircated this binds horribly.

Just boil and wax your switches, it works amazingly. This problem has now been solved and everyone just has to try this method.

The plastic of the stem, the upper housing rails and their slits are getting oxidized by age, wear and moisture, i.e. they get abraded. The plastic stem gets abraded but so are the upper housing rails too. Those abrasions are not any small matter, you can actually feel them just by running your... fingernail along the edges and the surface of the stem. That is what makes the switch harsh and binding, not any dirt. I mean what kind of dirt would be that big and strong?
Therefore I find it difficult to see how two abraded surfaces have no friction when slide together. As you pointed out, only one surface maybe be "leathered" but the other must be smooth, for mininal friction, however this is clearly not the case for worn/aged switches which both are degraded.

IMO for a proper restoration there is no getting away from actually polishing the surfaces of the plastics that make contact, to remove their abrasions.

Also I find it difficult to understand what is the point in the boil "cleaning" step, because you are still going to boil them in wax again right afterwards. What does that contribute to the end result? I think most likely the candle wax, which was known for months now, is the only thing that actually makes the switch smooth in the end. Has anyone tried to "wax-boil" step without the cleaning first? I have a feeling that it will have the same result.

And lastly, I would refrain to refer this problem as "solved", without other people with verified NOS switches have actually tested them side by side and verified that everything is near identical.

[mode1ace]

If you want to tediously disbelieve the findings of the many people who have done it, please just don’t boil and wax your switches.

Or just try it and you’ll see it’s superb. Up to you mate.

[Jan Pospisil]

It's good to want to understand why things work, when they work.
It would also be interesting to try both steps separately, so just boiling without the wax, and just the wax boil.

[XR6]

It's good to want to understand why things work, when they work.
It would also be interesting to try both steps separately, so just boiling without the wax, and just the wax boil.

I've tried just boiling without the wax and it definitely makes a difference. The switches I boiled were noticeably smoother.
I've not tried just boiling in wax, I'll give it a go tomorrow but to be honest, I have my doubts.

[soyuz]

Tbh dirt is the least of the issues. The whole point is it to make the plastic stem surfaces as smooth and polished as possible. I use a dremel with felt tip to polish them one by one. Also the metal leafs need to be polished as well. And all of that before adding any kind of lube.

I'm very skeptical of this, it's not about literally being as smooth as possible, completely flat surfaces can be highly frictional. It's about reducing friction. NOS alps sliders have a leathered appearance, but the switch housing itself is smooth, one slide leathered and the other smooth has less contact area, and no meshing of rough surfaces.

My worst condition blue sliders have seen so much use they have worn smooth, unlubircated this binds horribly.

Just boil and wax your switches, it works amazingly. This problem has now been solved and everyone just has to try this method.

The plastic of the stem, the upper housing rails and their slits are getting oxidized by age, wear and moisture, i.e. they get abraded. The plastic stem gets abraded but so are the upper housing rails too. Those abrasions are not any small matter, you can actually feel them just by running your... fingernail along the edges and the surface of the stem. That is what makes the switch harsh and binding, not any dirt. I mean what kind of dirt would be that big and strong?
Therefore I find it difficult to see how two abraded surfaces have no friction when slide together. As you pointed out, only one surface maybe be "leathered" but the other must be smooth, for mininal friction, however this is clearly not the case for worn/aged switches which both are degraded.

IMO for a proper restoration there is no getting away from actually polishing the surfaces of the plastics that make contact, to remove their abrasions.

Also I find it difficult to understand what is the point in the boil "cleaning" step, because you are still going to boil them in wax again right afterwards. What does that contribute to the end result? I think most likely the candle wax, which was known for months now, is the only thing that actually makes the switch smooth in the end. Has anyone tried to "wax-boil" step without the cleaning first? I have a feeling that it will have the same result.

And lastly, I would refrain to refer this problem as "solved", without other people with verified NOS switches actually test them side by side and verify that they everything is near identical.

We were trying boiling first before incorporating wax. It worked very well. Microscope proof of superior cleaning - boiled on left, ultrasonic on right:


Fundamentally, this method works, and it works better than anything that's been posted in this thread.

[mode1ace]

It's good to want to understand why things work, when they work.
It would also be interesting to try both steps separately, so just boiling without the wax, and just the wax boil.

I have, not as good, but still good.

Boiling is just effective cleaning, it gets more dirt off than the ultrasonic bath. It also happens to be an extremely effective method for evenly applying wax.

[mode1ace]

FWIW, I do have NOS switches, green, white and orange.

[raoulduke-esq]

I don't understand all the drama and histrionics in this thread...

You're all wrong anyway! I fixed these turbo-fucked Salmons with this one simple trick:

IMG_0882 copy.jpg (1.71 MiB) Viewed 7335 times

[NeK]

It's good to want to understand why things work, when they work.
It would also be interesting to try both steps separately, so just boiling without the wax, and just the wax boil.

This exactly.
I'm actually pretty happy to hear of this boiling technique. However I do want to understand it more in detail and also some things are not really making sense to me, so I point them out.

[NeK]

FWIW, I do have NOS switches, green, white and orange.

Good. I believe you. Did you try only the wax-boil step? If not please do.

[mode1ace]

This exactly.
I'm actually pretty happy to hear of this boiling technique. However I do want to understand it more in detail and also some things are not really making sense to me, so I point them out.

Try it for yourself then.

[mode1ace]

FWIW, I do have NOS switches, green, white and orange.

Good. I believe you. Did you try only the wax-boil step? If not please do.

yes I did, it embedded dirt in the layer of wax.


It was ok, but, not amazing. I reboiled, rewaxed and then it was good.

[NeK]

This exactly.
I'm actually pretty happy to hear of this boiling technique. However I do want to understand it more in detail and also some things are not really making sense to me, so I point them out.

Try it for yourself then.

Of course I will, right when I get home!

[zrrion]

I think most likely the candle wax, which was known for months now, is the only thing that actually makes the switch smooth in the end. Has anyone tried to "wax-boil" step without the cleaning first? I have a feeling that it will have the same result.

>which was known for months now
IIRC this is actually where the idea came from. VR20X6 had the idea for boiling as a cleaning method over a year ago and the idea that wax melts at such temperatures and would therefore be very easy to apply makes intuitive sense. The thing that really gets the ball rolling here is people other than VR actually bothering to verify the boiling method as a decent way to clean the switches.

>"wax-boil" without the cleaning first
Why would you lube a dirty switch? trying to combine the cleaning step and the lube step would just introduce dirt into the lube. The real answer to "why boil first" is that it works well as a cleaning method and you're already boiling water anyway.

And I think there is something to be said about the ratio of work done to results rendered. It is entirely possible (and likely, assuming the process is done competently) that painstakingly polishing all of the sliders in a keyboard and applying a wet lube with a brush the way one would for MX would produce superior results but this depends on both individual skill when it comes to polishing and lube application and is also labor intensive. boiling the switches once to clean them and another time in waxy water to lube them takes about 2 minutes/boil, doesn't really have anything to do with personal skill in the process, and is consistent. So in my estimation so long as the results are close, boiling would be a much better method in terms of improvement per switch per minute.

Ideally to test out this method (as well as polishing and any other fun new tech people come up with) we would get a batch of switches all from the same board to clean, several people would get a handful of these switches to clean/lube with each method, with a few switches left unlubed for comparison. Put all of these switches (as well as some uncleaned control switches and some NOS switches) into a tester so that you could clearly and fairly test all switch cleaning methods in the same chassis and take that to a meetup for everyone there to give feedback. This would let the consistency of the method be tested as well as the general improvements made in a way that should be as free from personal bias as possible. I doubt anyone would be willing to set such a thing up (and meetups are still not a good idea for the time being) so until then the best anyone can get is to attempt the various cleaning/lubing methods themselves. So far everyone I have heard of trying the waxboil has got good results. I have some absolutely disgusting dampened ivory switches that I could boil/waxboil if anyone in indiana has some NOS switches to compare too. very interested to see how it would work out.

[mode1ace]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXnfZp1cqUM This guy tried wax first. I saw him talk about it on discord and just gave it a go, and it spread from there to various people who were already boiling switches and then combined the methods.

[mode1ace]

I really love how this guy hadn't read this thread, just noticed that the original lube seemed waxy, so tried rubbing a candle on it.

Amazing.

[NeK]

for example, i legit find it ironic that you're worried about deforming switches by boiling them when you are taking a dremel to yours.

Well I understand why you say that, because the word dremel makes us think of sanding or sawing or cutting or something equally strong and harsh.
However, the felt tip that I use with the dremel is soft cotton, it is very gentle, like wool. It is so soft, that you can use it on your finger. It is not anywhere near like a sandpaper or anything like that, on the contrary it is very soft. It is like gently caressing with a soft cloth and that polishes plastic in the most elegant way.

[NeK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXnfZp1cqUM This guy tried wax first. I saw him talk about it on discord and just gave it a go, and it spread from there to various people who were already boiling switches and then combined the methods.

yeah sure, that's awesome. ROLFMAO

[*] Look at those ingredients, they are way out of anything we have thought of. Except for the famous 2581P which turns out to be a PARAFFIN based oil, i.e. it is WAX!!! Yes, it is wax just as I thought at some point. Unbelievable!!! People in DT discord will remember me putting actual wax on a switch to try it out and finding that it did gave almost the exact same original feeling. LOL You can't make these things up man, you really just can't.
[/list]

[Jezzuz]

Yea so I was just messing with some bad condition alps switches and tried some wax on one. It seemed to be 10x better than before so then I tried on some other switches and found that the tea light candles have the best result due to their softer texture and having no additives. I also researched wether or not it has chemicals which can harm the plastic or change it over time and it all seemed to check out. And every time it got rid of 100% of the binding and significantly reduced the scratch. So then I told some other people about and they all had the same results. So we waxed our boards and all had fantastic results. So I guess it all kinda started from there. I have been daily driving my waxed board since and it is holding up the same if not better than when first waxed. You can check out my video ab how to rub the wax on which is the original method and the way I prefer for none skcc switches and also you can find the video on the boil method of applying the wax and more information in the description of the video

[mode1ace]

That’s the key, encouraging others to try and experiment

i’ve got 300 of the finest rekt taobao blues coming my way, so I’m going to see how this method fares at scale.

it’s a shame I have no NOS blues, but if they come out better than my NOS white then that’s a win

[NeK]

>which was known for months now
IIRC this is actually where the idea came from.

Thanks for that.

VR20X6 had the idea for boiling as a cleaning method over a year ago and the idea that wax melts at such temperatures and would therefore be very easy to apply makes intuitive sense. The thing that really gets the ball rolling here is people other than VR actually bothering to verify the boiling method as a decent way to clean the switches.

This one is indeed a genuine novel and great idea. It really excited me.

>"wax-boil" without the cleaning first
Why would you lube a dirty switch?

Makes sense!

And I think there is something to be said about the ratio of work done to results rendered. It is entirely possible (and likely, assuming the process is done competently) that painstakingly polishing all of the sliders in a keyboard and applying a wet lube with a brush the way one would for MX would produce superior results but this depends on both individual skill when it comes to polishing and lube application and is also labor intensive. boiling the switches once to clean them and another time in waxy water to lube them takes about 2 minutes/boil, doesn't really have anything to do with personal skill in the process, and is consistent. So in my estimation so long as the results are close, boiling would be a much better method in terms of improvement per switch per minute.

There is no comparison of how much superior is the boiling. There's no question about it, if it can give good enough results, then there's no point in talking about any other technique. I can't wait to try it.

As far as the "perfect" test you mentioned, well that's a bit overkill. We are keyboard scientists working for keyboard science!! but not THAT much LOL

[PlacaFromHell]

So, after a quick talk with VR20X6 at Discord, we have developed a concern based on the idea of lubricating switches using wax. My knowledge of chemistry in general is pretty poor, but as far as I know wax is made up mostly of fatty acids and that could mean it is prone to oxidation. Our concern revolves around whether this could be a very short-term solution or directly compromise the lifespan of the switches in some way. If someone has authority on the subject, it would be good if they gave their opinion on it. Thanks.

Edit: in case this is actually a problem just use paraffin, it has no fatty acids of any kind.

[Jezzuz]

I also had this concern in the beginning but after some research, I found that that paraffin wax is not naturally made and does not have the same corrosive effects as other natural waxes like bees wax, olive oil and coconut oil, and it is a commonly used lubricant in many applications especially on bike chains. it also outperformed every lubricant in almost every way on all the other applications. I think I have heard people say that the OG alps lube was paraffin-based as well and some other lubes that have worked well in the past on alps. but I am absolutely no chemist so I could totally be wrong.

[soyuz]

Yeah, most tealights are straight paraffin wax. I'm not sure what the fragrance oils in some scented tealights would do though - I used scented because it was what I had on hand for testing + demo, but I certainly wouldn't do a whole board with scented candles.

[raoulduke-esq]

Aroma therapy keyboard though…

[Jan Pospisil]

So I'm wondering, surely it's not necessary for the water to be boiling, right? It's about delivering some heat, enough to clean the dirt off and melt the wax.
So for the ABS housings, anything under 100C should be ok? (iirc that's when it starts warping?)
So maybe a sous vide heater, set to like 70ish? Maybe 50 and leave it for longer?

[mode1ace]

So I'm wondering, surely it's not necessary for the water to be boiling, right? It's about delivering some heat, enough to clean the dirt off and melt the wax.
So for the ABS housings, anything under 100C should be ok? (iirc that's when it starts warping?)
So maybe a sous vide heater, set to like 70ish? Maybe 50 and leave it for longer?

More heat is better.

I've boiled bamboo switches, they do not deform despite melting with acetone. They don't melt nearly as much with acetone as pure ABS and the material is certainly harder feeling. I suspect it's some kind of acetone nylon blend. Either way the boil is totally fine for bamboo.

Definitely boil the shit out of pine switches, they can take a hard boil, directly in a pan with no sieve, no problem.

[an_achronism]

So I'm wondering, surely it's not necessary for the water to be boiling, right? It's about delivering some heat, enough to clean the dirt off and melt the wax.
So for the ABS housings, anything under 100C should be ok? (iirc that's when it starts warping?)
So maybe a sous vide heater, set to like 70ish? Maybe 50 and leave it for longer?

My kettle actually has a temperature setting with various options so I could test this out in theory if I find some manky old bamboo switches but apparently even at 100 deg C there is no obvious sign of deformation on bamboo perhaps due to it not being entirely ABS but rather a blend with ABS grain distributed through it.

And I think the only bamboo boards I currently have are NOS.

[soyuz]

So I'm wondering, surely it's not necessary for the water to be boiling, right? It's about delivering some heat, enough to clean the dirt off and melt the wax.
So for the ABS housings, anything under 100C should be ok? (iirc that's when it starts warping?)
So maybe a sous vide heater, set to like 70ish? Maybe 50 and leave it for longer?

Most housings are just fine on the stove, and I've heard reports of success with bamboo housings in a rolling boil, I am just very hesitant to recommend anything that I think has any chance of damaging people's stuff.

I think it would be fine even to just pour boiling water over them rather than have it be constantly at the boil, water cools down pretty quickly once you're not applying external heat to it.

[melka]

So I'm wondering, surely it's not necessary for the water to be boiling, right? It's about delivering some heat, enough to clean the dirt off and melt the wax.
So for the ABS housings, anything under 100C should be ok? (iirc that's when it starts warping?)
So maybe a sous vide heater, set to like 70ish? Maybe 50 and leave it for longer?

I'm wildly guessing that the boil is good because the mechanical action of bubbles is doing most of the work in scrubbing the filth.