The final take - Daedalus reviews the KBC Poker
- daedalus
- Buckler Of Springs
- Location: Ireland
- Main keyboard: Model M SSK (home) HHKB Pro 2 (work)
- Main mouse: CST Lasertrack, Logitech MX Master
- Favorite switch: Buckling Spring, Beam Spring
- DT Pro Member: 0087
I received a loan of a KBC Poker for review purposes from Webwit through MrInterface.
First Impressions
The keyboard is light, but doesn't feel flimsy. Due to the fact that the whole upper face of the keyboard consists of keys, it doesn't as much have a case as it has a single-piece shell. It doesn't have feet, which I usually use on keyboards. However, I didn't find it made any difference to my typing so I'm willing to ignore that.
Webwit had noted that the screws had come loose when he got this keyboard originally. When I received it, the left hand side of the PCB was flexing violently, which turned out to be the fault of a loose screw on the left hand side. Given the excellent packing done by Mr. Interface, I doubt that this was shipping damage. Even when the screw was tightened, there was still a bit of flex on the left hand side if I poked at keycaps in the bottom left hand corner. I suspect that another screw may be loose (the PCB is held into the case with three screws) but I haven't gotten around to looking for them. However, given that sixty's keyboard did not have these issues, I'm going to assume that this is some sort of early production quirk which will hopefully be absent from standard production models.
In terms of other build quality issues, the USB port has quite a wide gap around it which exposes the PCB. I'm not too sure how much potential for damage exists here in practical terms, but I think it could do with a tighter fit around the USB port.
This keyboard uses Black Cherry switches, with a Grey switch on the spacebar and a Red switch on the tilde/Esc key. I've typed on old linear keyboards before and didn't like them, but I found the Black Cherry switches to be very pleasant to type on - the stiffness prevents you from bottoming out on keys, and thus typing on them is smooth and involves little travel. Either way, the KBC will be available in a number of different Cherry switch configurations which should keep everyone happy.
The keycaps look smart, if not somewhat unreadable, and seem pretty sturdy, but I've noticed that a few of the keys have already started to shine a little bit. They're also quite hard to remove compared with standard Cherry keycaps, although I think this is an issue with a lot of non-Cherry made keycaps for MX switches. IIRC, KBC is using different keycaps made from a different material on the regular production keyboards which may mean less/more/different problems with the keyboards that most people will actually end up with.
Layout
I'm a big fan of the HHKB, so this thing has a hard act to follow, and I guess it has heavily biased my ideas of how an Fn layer should work.
The KBC promises from the outset to fix one of the big problems with the HHKB design - the absence of keys along the bottom row. They also have a rather interesting way of implementing an inverted-T arrow cluster - pressing Fn + Spacebar turns Right Windows, Context, Right Control and Right Shift into arrow keys. In fact, you could easily leave on the 'Arrow Lock' given how infrequently these keys are usually used. I did however find that I have a habit of using Right Shift to type in ? which led to some bizarre situations where I presssed / and Up Arrow when I forgot that I had the Arrow Lock on.
This sort of thing can be adjusted to, but it underlies a more substantial problem with the layout - the only dedicated Fn key on the keyboard is where Right Alt should be. For one, many people (myself included) use some sort of key mapping that uses right Alt as an Alt Gr key for typing Unicode characters. In Windows, this can be emulated by pressing Control and Alt, but this doesn't work under Linux, leaving me in a rather unfortunate situation if I need to type something like the Euro symbol. By means of a compromise, they could have replaced either the Right Windows key or the Useless Key (Context) with Right Alt. It would not have been in its standard position, but at least it would be there somewhere in place of a lesser used key.
But moreso, the Fn key in a really awkward place - it requires you to move the right hand, hold the Fn key with the right thumb and press whatever other key is needed. One of the great things about the HHKB is the placement of the Fn key in a position that does not require the hand to move too far out of the normal typing position. IMHO, this makes the arrow key implementation on the HHKB superior to that on a standard ANSI/ISO layout keyboard. While I appreciate that there are advantages for manufacturing the Poker with the layout of a standard alpha-block, I think the addition of an Fn key to the right of the right shift key would be highly advantageous.
Speaking of HHKB arrows, the KBC places regular keys on the Fn layer on the WASD block. On paper, this sounds like a clever idea, but in practise, it is really impractical. It turns the arrow key process into a two handed operation which requires the right hand to be moved out of the typing position to press the Fn key. The keyboard has DIP switches that let you turn the Left Widows key into an additional Fn, but this is also problematic - users of Mac OS X really need a Command key on the left hand side of the keyboard. OS X lets you assign Command to something else like Caps Lock or Control, but if Mac users are used to Command being where it is located on a Mac keyboard, then it's unideal. In addition, if the Arrow Lock is on, it forces Windows users to turn it off to use the Win key.
In terms of a solution to this, I think Caps Lock should be made an Fn layer function (who really uses Caps Lock that much that it needs to be a dedicated key anyway?) and the Caps Lock key should be made a left Fn. Then the user should be able to swap Control and Left Fn with DIP switches to suit their taste. In either the Caps or Left Control position, the Left Fn key would be easier to reach, and would offer a direct improvement over one of my big gripes with the HHKB design - the lack of a dedicated left Fn key.
In regards to other keys, the Fn layer is a bit odd. There are two keys which map to delete, I'm not sure why. In general, the editor block keys seem to be thrown around in a haphazard way around the keyboard. End is on '" with Home on top on [{, whereas PgDn is on .> with PgUp to its left on ,< Insert is located on ]}, nowhere near Delete. The HHKB had some degree of consistency in that Home, End, Page Up and Page Down were located in the same approximate placement that they would be on a standard keyboard, and Delete and Insert were located beside eachother (depending on the DIP switch configuration). Again, I fear my HHKB bias seeping in, but I honestly can't see the logic behind the location of the editor keys on the KBC. Perhaps they were an afterthought to the designers - these keys are largely the domain of the more technically advanced, and perhaps it was felt that most people wouldn't care. Then again, keyboards like this tend to be bought by the technically compotent, so it does matter.
Conclusions
Presuming that the issues with the screws on the example I reviewed go away, the KBC is a well built, low cost Cherry switch keyboard. The problems that I have with it lie in what I feel to be some rather poor layout decisions. Any compact keyboard layout is going to have some compromises, but I feel in the case of the KBC that many of the issues I noticed could have been avoided. It would be easy for me to say that they should just look at the HHKB and copy it verbatim, but I think a good way for them to really stand out would be to have a fully programmable keyboard layout for both the standard and Fn layers. Either way, I think the keyboard could do with an extra key serving as a dedicated Fn key. I'd also like to see the Caps Lock replaced with a dedicated left Fn, or even a DIP switch that lets the user decided whether Caps Lock should be on a dedicated key or on the Fn layer.
Verdict:
Nice keyboard, mediocre layout.
First Impressions
The keyboard is light, but doesn't feel flimsy. Due to the fact that the whole upper face of the keyboard consists of keys, it doesn't as much have a case as it has a single-piece shell. It doesn't have feet, which I usually use on keyboards. However, I didn't find it made any difference to my typing so I'm willing to ignore that.
Webwit had noted that the screws had come loose when he got this keyboard originally. When I received it, the left hand side of the PCB was flexing violently, which turned out to be the fault of a loose screw on the left hand side. Given the excellent packing done by Mr. Interface, I doubt that this was shipping damage. Even when the screw was tightened, there was still a bit of flex on the left hand side if I poked at keycaps in the bottom left hand corner. I suspect that another screw may be loose (the PCB is held into the case with three screws) but I haven't gotten around to looking for them. However, given that sixty's keyboard did not have these issues, I'm going to assume that this is some sort of early production quirk which will hopefully be absent from standard production models.
In terms of other build quality issues, the USB port has quite a wide gap around it which exposes the PCB. I'm not too sure how much potential for damage exists here in practical terms, but I think it could do with a tighter fit around the USB port.
This keyboard uses Black Cherry switches, with a Grey switch on the spacebar and a Red switch on the tilde/Esc key. I've typed on old linear keyboards before and didn't like them, but I found the Black Cherry switches to be very pleasant to type on - the stiffness prevents you from bottoming out on keys, and thus typing on them is smooth and involves little travel. Either way, the KBC will be available in a number of different Cherry switch configurations which should keep everyone happy.
The keycaps look smart, if not somewhat unreadable, and seem pretty sturdy, but I've noticed that a few of the keys have already started to shine a little bit. They're also quite hard to remove compared with standard Cherry keycaps, although I think this is an issue with a lot of non-Cherry made keycaps for MX switches. IIRC, KBC is using different keycaps made from a different material on the regular production keyboards which may mean less/more/different problems with the keyboards that most people will actually end up with.
Layout
I'm a big fan of the HHKB, so this thing has a hard act to follow, and I guess it has heavily biased my ideas of how an Fn layer should work.
The KBC promises from the outset to fix one of the big problems with the HHKB design - the absence of keys along the bottom row. They also have a rather interesting way of implementing an inverted-T arrow cluster - pressing Fn + Spacebar turns Right Windows, Context, Right Control and Right Shift into arrow keys. In fact, you could easily leave on the 'Arrow Lock' given how infrequently these keys are usually used. I did however find that I have a habit of using Right Shift to type in ? which led to some bizarre situations where I presssed / and Up Arrow when I forgot that I had the Arrow Lock on.
This sort of thing can be adjusted to, but it underlies a more substantial problem with the layout - the only dedicated Fn key on the keyboard is where Right Alt should be. For one, many people (myself included) use some sort of key mapping that uses right Alt as an Alt Gr key for typing Unicode characters. In Windows, this can be emulated by pressing Control and Alt, but this doesn't work under Linux, leaving me in a rather unfortunate situation if I need to type something like the Euro symbol. By means of a compromise, they could have replaced either the Right Windows key or the Useless Key (Context) with Right Alt. It would not have been in its standard position, but at least it would be there somewhere in place of a lesser used key.
But moreso, the Fn key in a really awkward place - it requires you to move the right hand, hold the Fn key with the right thumb and press whatever other key is needed. One of the great things about the HHKB is the placement of the Fn key in a position that does not require the hand to move too far out of the normal typing position. IMHO, this makes the arrow key implementation on the HHKB superior to that on a standard ANSI/ISO layout keyboard. While I appreciate that there are advantages for manufacturing the Poker with the layout of a standard alpha-block, I think the addition of an Fn key to the right of the right shift key would be highly advantageous.
Speaking of HHKB arrows, the KBC places regular keys on the Fn layer on the WASD block. On paper, this sounds like a clever idea, but in practise, it is really impractical. It turns the arrow key process into a two handed operation which requires the right hand to be moved out of the typing position to press the Fn key. The keyboard has DIP switches that let you turn the Left Widows key into an additional Fn, but this is also problematic - users of Mac OS X really need a Command key on the left hand side of the keyboard. OS X lets you assign Command to something else like Caps Lock or Control, but if Mac users are used to Command being where it is located on a Mac keyboard, then it's unideal. In addition, if the Arrow Lock is on, it forces Windows users to turn it off to use the Win key.
In terms of a solution to this, I think Caps Lock should be made an Fn layer function (who really uses Caps Lock that much that it needs to be a dedicated key anyway?) and the Caps Lock key should be made a left Fn. Then the user should be able to swap Control and Left Fn with DIP switches to suit their taste. In either the Caps or Left Control position, the Left Fn key would be easier to reach, and would offer a direct improvement over one of my big gripes with the HHKB design - the lack of a dedicated left Fn key.
In regards to other keys, the Fn layer is a bit odd. There are two keys which map to delete, I'm not sure why. In general, the editor block keys seem to be thrown around in a haphazard way around the keyboard. End is on '" with Home on top on [{, whereas PgDn is on .> with PgUp to its left on ,< Insert is located on ]}, nowhere near Delete. The HHKB had some degree of consistency in that Home, End, Page Up and Page Down were located in the same approximate placement that they would be on a standard keyboard, and Delete and Insert were located beside eachother (depending on the DIP switch configuration). Again, I fear my HHKB bias seeping in, but I honestly can't see the logic behind the location of the editor keys on the KBC. Perhaps they were an afterthought to the designers - these keys are largely the domain of the more technically advanced, and perhaps it was felt that most people wouldn't care. Then again, keyboards like this tend to be bought by the technically compotent, so it does matter.
Conclusions
Presuming that the issues with the screws on the example I reviewed go away, the KBC is a well built, low cost Cherry switch keyboard. The problems that I have with it lie in what I feel to be some rather poor layout decisions. Any compact keyboard layout is going to have some compromises, but I feel in the case of the KBC that many of the issues I noticed could have been avoided. It would be easy for me to say that they should just look at the HHKB and copy it verbatim, but I think a good way for them to really stand out would be to have a fully programmable keyboard layout for both the standard and Fn layers. Either way, I think the keyboard could do with an extra key serving as a dedicated Fn key. I'd also like to see the Caps Lock replaced with a dedicated left Fn, or even a DIP switch that lets the user decided whether Caps Lock should be on a dedicated key or on the Fn layer.
Verdict:
Nice keyboard, mediocre layout.
- daedalus
- Buckler Of Springs
- Location: Ireland
- Main keyboard: Model M SSK (home) HHKB Pro 2 (work)
- Main mouse: CST Lasertrack, Logitech MX Master
- Favorite switch: Buckling Spring, Beam Spring
- DT Pro Member: 0087
Page Up/Down is not bad. I was moreso pointing out what I felt was a somewhat inconsistent layout. Although I guess it is perhaps somewhat logical given the placement of the Fn key. Too bad that I don't like where the Fn key is placed
What is that "Task" key anyway?
What is that "Task" key anyway?
- webwit
- Wild Duck
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: Model F62
- Favorite switch: IBM beam spring
- DT Pro Member: 0000
- Contact:
This is how it left me, how can keycaps go from new to shiny in just a few hours of extra use? It seems unlikely. Maybe they react to something? How are sixty's Poker keycaps? I think his boards melt when he put his fingers on them.
- daedalus
- Buckler Of Springs
- Location: Ireland
- Main keyboard: Model M SSK (home) HHKB Pro 2 (work)
- Main mouse: CST Lasertrack, Logitech MX Master
- Favorite switch: Buckling Spring, Beam Spring
- DT Pro Member: 0087
I'm not sure. What makes it even more bizarre is that only those two keys show any appreciable levels of shine. If it were my hands, or anyone else's, you'd expect other keys to show something. I keep my hands clean, and I don't usually have shine issues with keyboards, so I doubt that's the issue anyway.
- webwit
- Wild Duck
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: Model F62
- Favorite switch: IBM beam spring
- DT Pro Member: 0000
- Contact:
Maybe it has some coating or some imperfection in the production process which caused it only for those keys.
- daedalus
- Buckler Of Springs
- Location: Ireland
- Main keyboard: Model M SSK (home) HHKB Pro 2 (work)
- Main mouse: CST Lasertrack, Logitech MX Master
- Favorite switch: Buckling Spring, Beam Spring
- DT Pro Member: 0087
Perhaps. I guess it will take a few months of using the keyboard to see just how durable or not they are.
-
- Location: Ugly American
- Main keyboard: As Long As It is Helvetica
- Main mouse: Mickey
- Favorite switch: Wanna Switch? Well, I Certainly Did!
- DT Pro Member: -
Nice review.
Given my experience with USB conversions I also find that mini Type B USB only held on by a PCB worrisome as well. I sure hope the Leopolds are better.
I don't fool around when I put USB in my keyboards.
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6872
FULL sized double bolted Type B Female USB ain't going anywhere. Big Females Need Lovin' Too.
Given my experience with USB conversions I also find that mini Type B USB only held on by a PCB worrisome as well. I sure hope the Leopolds are better.
I don't fool around when I put USB in my keyboards.
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6872
FULL sized double bolted Type B Female USB ain't going anywhere. Big Females Need Lovin' Too.
-
- DT Pro Member: -
I've never used a HHKB but I think its a very complicated issue of where to put the Fn key. I think Dip switches are good for giving people options because i don't think everyone can agree on one place to put it.
As a Windows user I don't really use the Windows Key or the Useless Key, so I think for windows users these options could be fine.
My main issue is that as Colemak user I have become very very accustomed to having my caps key remapped to a Backspace key and think that that having a backspace there is absolutely amazing. I wouldn't want to give that up for a Fn key.
It seems to me that if the Fn key is found on either side of the spacebar it can be hit with the thumbs?
As a Windows user I don't really use the Windows Key or the Useless Key, so I think for windows users these options could be fine.
My main issue is that as Colemak user I have become very very accustomed to having my caps key remapped to a Backspace key and think that that having a backspace there is absolutely amazing. I wouldn't want to give that up for a Fn key.
It seems to me that if the Fn key is found on either side of the spacebar it can be hit with the thumbs?
- daedalus
- Buckler Of Springs
- Location: Ireland
- Main keyboard: Model M SSK (home) HHKB Pro 2 (work)
- Main mouse: CST Lasertrack, Logitech MX Master
- Favorite switch: Buckling Spring, Beam Spring
- DT Pro Member: 0087
Depends on how long your spacebar is.
I must admit that I'm not a layout expert, and that many of the conclusions I drew may not/probably are not/most definitely are not in any way accurate.
I must admit that I'm not a layout expert, and that many of the conclusions I drew may not/probably are not/most definitely are not in any way accurate.
-
- Main keyboard: Leopold Cherry MX Blue Tenkeyless
- Main mouse: Logitech G9
- DT Pro Member: -
You mentioned the lack of feet not being an issue with you. How high does the keyboard incline? Does it incline more than a normal keyboard would because of the lack of feet? I'm personally a "feet always" type of guy and right now the lack of feet is the biggest thing holding me back from jumping on this board.
- daedalus
- Buckler Of Springs
- Location: Ireland
- Main keyboard: Model M SSK (home) HHKB Pro 2 (work)
- Main mouse: CST Lasertrack, Logitech MX Master
- Favorite switch: Buckling Spring, Beam Spring
- DT Pro Member: 0087
It has a slight incline (see Webwit or Sixty's pictures) but quite as much of an angle as compared with a standard keyboard with feet raised.
- webwit
- Wild Duck
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: Model F62
- Favorite switch: IBM beam spring
- DT Pro Member: 0000
- Contact:
- webwit
- Wild Duck
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: Model F62
- Favorite switch: IBM beam spring
- DT Pro Member: 0000
- Contact:
ANSI for the win! If you need it, maybe remap right Win (for example) to AltGr?
- sixty
- Gasbag Guru
- Main keyboard: DKSaver
- Favorite switch: Cherry MX Black
- DT Pro Member: 0060
Yes. Probably. I use a HHKB wristrest with it and it fits nearly perfectly. You can check out out webwit's review, where he does a direct comparison to the HHKB (at least in size and weight):lal wrote:I have a question. The Pokers dimensions are quite similar to the HHKB, so keyboard roofs for the HHKB should fit the Poker, too, or not?
http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=178
- lal
- Main keyboard: Poker
- Main mouse: TrackMan
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
Some first impressions of the Poker X with blues I just received. It's small. First thing I thought was "cute". Apart from clicking switches tenkeylessness is the most important attribute in a keyboard for me, so that's good. I'll have to use it for some time to really appreciate it's minimal size. The typing experience is just what I expected from a MX blue board so far. The click sound could be way louder IMO (been using BS for the last months).
The printing on the keys is much too bold in *any* sense. The front printings of the Fn-functions make it look cluttered or like a keyboard for idiots. I don't care that much about looks usually, the usability is what counts. But in this case I've decided to replace the keycaps. (Someone happens to have a spare set of the Dolch gray keys from Signature Plastic as seen here?) The tiny non-bubble Windows logo is positive though.
I can't type apostrophe/tilde in ESC-lock mode. It transmits Escape with and without holding Fn. I prefer Emacs, so no problem there.
The CapsLock LED is blinding. That's a plus. ESC-lock LED is invisible in daylight and normal typing position. Arrow-lock LEDs are visible.
What I don't understand is why WASD is the de facto standard for arrow keys. I don't suppose everyone types them with pinky, ring and middle finger, but shifts one key to the left from the home position? When I come around to play a game the first thing I do is remap movement keys to ESDF, to have my index finger et al where they belong.
I ordered it on the evening of Saturday 2011-06-11 and received it the next Friday from seller aminglau in Hong Kong for $99 plus $25 shipping. I was lucky and did not have to pay EUSt tax (Einfuhrumsatzsteuer) on top. The packaging was lousy, only a plastic bag around the original card box. This I bought:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... K:MEWNX:IT
lowpoly, I'm happy and sad at the same time. Glad that the Miniguru finally made it into production (didn't want that trackpoint anyway). Sad someone else does it. And with lesser quality.
But for the price this is an awesome keyboard. I made some pics, too.
The printing on the keys is much too bold in *any* sense. The front printings of the Fn-functions make it look cluttered or like a keyboard for idiots. I don't care that much about looks usually, the usability is what counts. But in this case I've decided to replace the keycaps. (Someone happens to have a spare set of the Dolch gray keys from Signature Plastic as seen here?) The tiny non-bubble Windows logo is positive though.
I can't type apostrophe/tilde in ESC-lock mode. It transmits Escape with and without holding Fn. I prefer Emacs, so no problem there.
The CapsLock LED is blinding. That's a plus. ESC-lock LED is invisible in daylight and normal typing position. Arrow-lock LEDs are visible.
What I don't understand is why WASD is the de facto standard for arrow keys. I don't suppose everyone types them with pinky, ring and middle finger, but shifts one key to the left from the home position? When I come around to play a game the first thing I do is remap movement keys to ESDF, to have my index finger et al where they belong.
I ordered it on the evening of Saturday 2011-06-11 and received it the next Friday from seller aminglau in Hong Kong for $99 plus $25 shipping. I was lucky and did not have to pay EUSt tax (Einfuhrumsatzsteuer) on top. The packaging was lousy, only a plastic bag around the original card box. This I bought:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... K:MEWNX:IT
lowpoly, I'm happy and sad at the same time. Glad that the Miniguru finally made it into production (didn't want that trackpoint anyway). Sad someone else does it. And with lesser quality.
But for the price this is an awesome keyboard. I made some pics, too.
- lal
- Main keyboard: Poker
- Main mouse: TrackMan
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
I just realized that the DIP switch numbers are the other way around from what's stated in the manual that's floating around the internets (specifically this one http://webwit.nl/input/misc/poker/usermanual.pdf). I append a (rather hires) scan of the correct printed manual that came with mine.
- Attachments
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- pokermanual1.png (303.56 KiB) Viewed 12468 times
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- pokermanual2.png (211.89 KiB) Viewed 12468 times
- lal
- Main keyboard: Poker
- Main mouse: TrackMan
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
Aah, sooo much better...
I have to thank 7bit for letting me have his spare set of those wonderful gray Dolch replica key caps. I love them. They even feel much better than the stock keys. Now this is a great keyboard in every respect. I might add that it's not as difficult to get used to the Fn-combinations for ESC et al as I'd thought.
I have to thank 7bit for letting me have his spare set of those wonderful gray Dolch replica key caps. I love them. They even feel much better than the stock keys. Now this is a great keyboard in every respect. I might add that it's not as difficult to get used to the Fn-combinations for ESC et al as I'd thought.