F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[dddyrseth]

Or I can solder a Bluetooth module to the xwhatsit Keyboard controller; if possible. And then add a battery pack with maybe 3 AA-batteries. Soldered too. Any help to get?

[Ellipse]

Here's the latest I've heard of the Bluetooth Model F project as of a while back - maybe contact the folks involved with this project to check on the current status - please do share your findings here if you find out anything:

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/a-bluet ... -keyboard/

[NathanA]

I get that this is 100% subjective and what follows is purely my own opinion, so I just post it here for conversation, but to me there's a line between the natural sound made by a key mechanism (including how it reverberates in the body of the keyboard), and connecting an entirely separate electronically controlled noise-making device. One is inherently part of the keyboard and its feel, the other is... a sort of weird kind of auditory skeuomorphism.

I am 1,000% with you. I think I've made this analogy here in the past, but these solenoids are like the mech keyboard equivalent of somebody like BMW adding artificial gasoline engine noises to an electric car. Just...stop.

[Muirium]

But under-lighting, meanwhile, now that's classy stuff…

[Sheepless]

When someone wants to have a little fun with their expensive purchase, I don't always agree with their sense of taste, but I understand the desire. Wacky paint job, lighting, solenoid, funky sleeved cable, whatever makes you smile for a while in this horrible world, go for it!

[dcopellino]

just.... Stop

I agree. Less is more. Don't paint it over or add any other frill, just sandblast it up!

IMG_20210403_123113.jpg (4.69 MiB) Viewed 5532 times

Oops, my keyboard is totally naked

[Bjerrk]

I get why you would add a solenoid to Alps boards though - never know when that click and actuation goes out of sync

[Ellipse]

Everyone please feel free to check out the March update on the project web site - a summary of what has been going on with the project in the past couple months: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

The container shipment with all of the remaining keyboards and parts departed in early February, and it is currently at sea on a container ship in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. It’s expected to arrive at the port and be delivered to me some time in the next few weeks, later this month. Once it arrives I will have a week or two of organization so that I know where each keyboard variation is located, and then I will start the QC process of personally testing and shipping more than 2,000 orders for keyboards and/or accessory parts as part of the current batch (it’s going to take me a few months as you can probably imagine!).

dcopellino is that some kind of finish on your F107 keyboard? It looks almost like chrome.

Also Zed has just created the F13-F24 keys for those F122 and M122 users - now available on the extra keys page.

[th5]

It appears that this project is out of compliance with the FTC's 30 day rule:

If your advertising doesn’t clearly and prominently state the shipment period, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days.

Non-compliance carries heavy fines.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busines ... hone-order
https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/docume ... -rules.pdf

[Muirium]

Are you going to rat him out? Those rules effectively ban all group buys run from the US, period. Do they apply? I’m not even American, let alone a lawyer.

Nice first post, by the way.

[Ellipse]

The FTC's 30 day rule definitely makes sense for most online goods, but please let's not insinuate regulations are being violated on this thread. As Muirium correctly noted regarding group buys, by that interpretation wouldn't all US-based crowdfunding sites like Kickstarter have been shut down a decade ago? Of course they are still up and thriving - a lot of great crowdfunding projects take longer than 30 days to fulfill - I'd imagine nearly all of them!

The important thing is disclosure as noted in the above quoted passage. To quote the linked page, the issue is only "If no time is clearly and conspicuously stated" - the rule does not apply for sellers that have made any representation of order ship time. Please note that the home page of the project web site has a conspicuous section called "Process Timeline" that notes that everything is made to order with a lead time of months or longer and delays are to be expected, as well as the terms and conditions and updates pages note in the risks section that extensive delays have occurred and can occur in the future. A guaranteed delivery date is not required; otherwise many crowdfunding campaigns would be outside the rule.

This important disclosure is done before the order is taken in the case of this project. Then the 30 day rule does not apply. Everyone signs their agreement to this through the terms and conditions checkbox before ordering, just as they do on sites like Kickstarter.

[Ellipse]

Also on the subject of solenoids, is there still any interest in additional solenoids and solenoid drivers? All but 10 or so of the solenoids and drivers have been already claimed. I'm thinking of another batch of them at some point in the future.

[Guppy]

Also is there still any interest in additional solenoids and solenoid drivers? All but 10 or so of the solenoids and drivers have been already claimed. I'm thinking of another batch of them at some point in the future.

For extra solenoids, I would say that it depends on if this is also the same batch that the future Beam spring project would perhaps use. I wouldn't be installing one on my F77 because of authenticity sake, but if/when I buy into the Beam spring project; I probably would want a solenoid for that. If they would share the same batch, then yes. I would think many others would feel the same way. Pardon me if you're thinking of asking the Beam spring thread the same question or if the logistics of which haven't been worked out yet.

[Ellipse]

Yes Guppy I do expect to make the solenoids for the second beam spring round and they will be the same batch as for the Model F keyboards, but that would be months down the line, so there would be a gap of no solenoids for a few months unless they make them earlier. I'm leaning towards another batch sooner. I guess the question is would there be another 1,000 solenoids and drivers ordered or should I order another batch of 500?

Is there any feedback on the solenoid case design/threaded hole placement? I haven't seen any reported issues outside of it taking up the same hole as for the threaded bumpers, thus making it an issue for the 8-32 thread medium size bumpers but not for the large 1" tall bumpers which use the 6-32 thread of the L bracket included with each solenoid. I am working on the proposed beam spring cases for the second round and do not anticipate any issues with fitting the solenoid, given how spacious the cases are

[I0IParzival]

Wait, the case is ready to bolt the solenoid to it? That's awesome. I thought it was more of a tinkering process to see where to place it

[Ellipse]

Yes, feel free to take a look at the solenoid installation video in the manual on the Model F project web site for specifics. The mounting hardware is included with the solenoid to securely install it in the classic style die cast zinc F62 and F77 cases.

Also for the beam spring project, I thought I would cross post here that I have posted over on that thread the first draft renderings of the proposed second round die cast case, as well as the CAD STP files for those interested in helping out with case/keyboard designs.

[kbdfr]

It appears that this project is out of compliance with the FTC's 30 day rule:

If your advertising doesn’t clearly and prominently state the shipment period, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days.

Non-compliance carries heavy fines.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busines ... hone-order
https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/docume ... -rules.pdf

Dear new member,

while your quote from the "Introduction" section of the FTC Guide is (almost) accurate, you apparently missed the point:
"if your advertising doesn't clearly and prominently state the shipment period".

Well, I checked - and it does ("several months"), both in the first post of this thread and the entry page of the project's web site, so the FTC "30-day-rule" obviously simply does not apply.

[I0IParzival]

Yes, feel free to take a look at the solenoid installation video in the manual on the Model F project web site for specifics. The mounting hardware is included with the solenoid to securely install it in the classic style die cast zinc F62 and F77 cases.

I did back in the day but I did not remember anything about it, guess it is time to watch it again prior to installation when it arrives (hopefully soon)

[NilesLinus]

Do the new Model Fs play well with iPads?

[thefarside]

Do the new Model Fs play well with iPads?

My F77 worked fine with a USB-A to USB-C adapter for an iPad Pro. Can’t speak for lightning connectors.

[th5]

There was a recent Model F thread on Hacker News. Multiple people asked if this project is a scam, which I was quite surprised by. Multiple people answered that it isn't. Someone else brought up the FTC's 30 day rule, which I wasn't aware of. I have not contacted the FTC, but I raised the issue here because others may have already or may in the future.

A company with $1m+ in sales should be in compliance with the law. Otherwise, there could be an impact to us all. I love classic IBM keyboards and eagerly await my order. I want this project and our communities to thrive.

This is not legal advice. I'm not an expert on FTC trade or consumer protection law. Based on my reading of several FTC pages and FAQs, it seems like a specific shipping time is required (otherwise the default 30 day window kicks in). Delays require the shipping time to be updated.

Kickstarter was mentioned. Many projects have had significant disputes between sellers and buyers, including legal action. I want us to avoid those situations. FTC has gone after some Kickstarters.

Are you currently in compliance? It seems like no to me. If not, what steps need to be taken to remedy the situation?

Where is the expected shipping time posted?

Ellipse, you may want to contact the FTC directly and talk it over with them. Consulting a lawyer is another option. I encourage you to share your findings.

I ordered more than "several months ago". I don't have a clear understanding of when my order will ship, or even where I am in line (which we are explicitly instructed not to ask). A year ago I thought my order would ship in a few months.

[wobbled]

Well if it was such a major issue, it would've been taken down in the last 7 years.

[th5]

Anyone reading who would like more information can:
- search "ftc 30 day rule"
- search "kickstarter ftc 30 day rule"
- check out this scholarly article reviewing consumer protections as they relate to kickstarter
https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/pdf/ ... .2019.1203

Please drop any useful resources, such as legal rulings that pin down what is meant by a "specific shipping period"

[th5]

[deleted]

[Muirium]

I’m not in the GB so I’ve no skin in the game.

Let the record state state that I won’t be the one hunting you down for some serious Fing retribution for ruined Kishsaver dreams if and when that happens.

[Guppy]

Are you currently in compliance? It seems like no to me. If not, what steps need to be taken to remedy the situation?

Where is the expected shipping time posted?

Ellipse, you may want to contact the FTC directly and talk it over with them. Consulting a lawyer is another option. I encourage you to share your findings.

I ordered more than "several months ago". I don't have a clear understanding of when my order will ship, or even where I am in line (which we are explicitly instructed not to ask). A year ago I thought my order would ship in a few months.

I'm not going to pretend that I speak on behalf of Eclipse or that I'm a lawyer, but I will say: I'm fairly sure according to the definition you've given and the definition the scholarly article gave (which scholarly articles are far and away from being legal precedent, I hope you understand) his bi-monthly updates cover all of his bases on giving shipping ETAs on his stock.

March 2022 Current Project Status:

The container shipment with all of the remaining keyboards and parts departed in early February as we had hoped for, and it is currently at sea on a container ship in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. It’s expected to arrive at the port and be delivered to me some time in the next few weeks, later this month. Once it arrives I will have a week or two of organization so that I know where each keyboard variation is located, and then I will start the QC process of personally testing and shipping more than 2,000 orders for keyboards and accessory parts as part of the current batch (it’s going to take me a few months as you can probably imagine!). As noted before the order is based on when you ordered and what extra support level you have chosen, if any.

There are not many new updates in the past month – the main focus is on preparing to mail out all orders in the container shipment, it will take several months until everything has been mailed out. Please review the prior updates below for other recent updates.

That seems pretty straightforward for an ETA for most people with the caveat that he may run out of parts before then.

I guess a solution to the problem of waiting almost a year for your keyboard (which let's be fair, that's a long time) would be to upgrade to a low serial # to guarantee that your order comes through first. Which I would have to ask Eclipse if it's too late to do that.

[th5]

Guppy, thank you for so thoughtfully responding. I also appreciate the suggestion about low serial numbers. I had never considered that. I'm ok with keeping my current place in line.

To me, the spirit of the law is that buyers should know when they will get what they buy.

[marcuso]

When I ordered mine, there was no doubt in my mind that it would be ages and ages away. I don't know where you get the wild idea that delivery in less than 30-days was a possibility (I think some have even enjoyed a 30 month wait)

Whenever it comes, I'll be well happy; that's what's important.

[Ellipse]

Yes confirmed, the low serial upgrades are still available for those who want their prior order to skip the line and support the project a little extra to help cover the project cost overruns.

Yes just like many other group buys / crowdfunding projects, many updates on the project and the project timeline have been provided - thousands of update posts in total - posts on the forums and social media, through email newsletters, and through posts on the project web site. And like many of those projects, long delays with uncertain delivery windows are to be expected, especially with projects as complex as this one that involve more than one million parts.

For those who have not been following the project recently, some of the latest updates note that the remaining keyboards are making their way over to me on a container ship that should be arriving at port later this month, and I expect to be going through the entire remaining backlog, with the expectation that I finish up around mid-year.

[yaun]

Would ordering a low serial number make an F77 with non-english layout ship earlier than any other serial number?