Why aren't other old periphrals better than modern ones like keyboards

[JCMax]

I think I may already know the answer to this, but I want to pose this question here since I'm curious how other people would phrase it.

From what I can gather, keyboards have more components, layouts, customization, and so forth than mice, and therefore don't have as many options to improve on. There's more to a device for typing than pointing and clicking. Compare an older mouse to a modern one and what really can you do to make it better? Change the shape and the tactility of the button click, but what other way could it be better than the current standard? Outside of things like vertical mice, not much (especially since vertical mice do not have near the same number of people touting them about so-called horizontal mice the way people tout, say, the HHKB over ANSI layout).

With monitors though, it's a bit tougher for me to put into words. I think, again, there aren't too many ways to do a monitor like a keyboard. CRT was pretty much the standard for the big boxy monitors of yesteryear and the last major advancement to change the standard was when LCD displays were introduced. At least from what I can gather.

In summary, I think it all comes down to the complex components and possible standards like layouts a keyboard has, and how many compromises were made to cut down the cost. So it's really a combination of limited room to improve and how complex manufacturing of the keyboards were with a need to reduce the cost. Unlike other peripherals, keyboards REGRESSED.

This is all just my theory and not established fact. And all of the above is just the best way I can phrase it.

But, I want to hear what your expert opinions are. Is there more to the trend? Is anything wrong with the above statements? How would you phrase your answers?

[Muirium]

The topic comes up quite routinely. Here’s one:

viewtopic.php?p=482950#p482950

Plenty of spicy hits if you search DT for CRT:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25405

In short: keyboards were already good enough, long ago indeed. The only way forward for them was downmarket. Everything else in hardware, meanwhile, sucked so hard it’s a miracle anyone ever used it. Displays, storage, memory, processors: all light years ahead of the past. Even printers are still fine. But keyboards? Brutalised for every penny!

[SK-8K]

Quality in general has regressed as computers "advanced." Tech companies are run by people with no ideas except copying Apple which itself is run by people just as vapid. The only exception so far is crappy "gamer" junk with RGB and other ugly trash that I'm never touching, and hobbyists like us, who can modify keyboards to be better quality, repair good old ones, or make new ones entirely.

The quality of modern laptops, for example has become flimsy trash just as keyboards have. Unfortunately there aren't any options to get a quality one like you can with a mechanical keyboard.

[Muirium]

Windows laptops maybe. I like my solid metal M1 Air much better than my mostly metal but oh boy there’s something creaking in there 12 inch PowerBook. I’ve found in the 25 years I’ve owned laptops, they’ve always gotten stronger and better built.

[JCMax]

I am all about ergonomics, and I don't mind shelling out a few extra pennies to get the better quality when necessary. Having things that add to comfort and health (especially for work) are worth the extra price.

No doubt older keyboards were better at this than the gamer or "ergonomic" garbage they put out today. Don't get me started on those wavy ergo keyboards.

I think a much needed keyboard renaissance maybe be getting started and it is long overdue. The hall effect keyboards and some of the newer projects have filled me with hope.

I just wish something like that could also happen for all of the other peripherals. That is, if it is even needed. Are current monitors and mice really at their pinnacle? I just wonder...could they be better?

MORE RESEARCH FOR ME!!!!!

[zrrion]

honestly it makes sense. The development of every peripheral has been gated behind computer power. A keyboard doesn't take a lot to drive and is way more important than anything else when it comes to actually using the computer so it only makes sense that it would be developed to a point you could consider good way earlier than every other part of the computer. Keyboards didn't start out good though, things like double action switches for repeat functions and only sending make codes really hobble a lot of older boards when it comes to using them in a modern context. That sort of thing is just a smaller issue than things like terrible DPI or bad audio.

[SK-8K]

I just wish something like that could also happen for all of the other peripherals. That is, if it is even needed. Are current monitors and mice really at their pinnacle? I just wonder...could they be better?

For modern monitors I've seen, the display quality is good, but the monitor itself is glued-together flimsy junk.

[wobbled]

Windows laptops maybe. I like my solid metal M1 Air much better than my mostly metal but oh boy there’s something creaking in there 12 inch PowerBook. I’ve found in the 25 years I’ve owned laptops, they’ve always gotten stronger and better built.

As a Macbook Pro M1 user myself, I feel I have to raise the issue of the 'solid metal' macbooks realistically being incredibly weak.
If you drop them on the corner for example, expect the light weight aluminium to fold over itself and look like absolute shit.
Never had that issue on my magnesium alloy Toshiba Portege that I used at work a few years ago, or indeed of thinkpads.

[Muirium]

I’ve dropped my fair share of laptops over the years. (Hold onto them for so damn long.) Busted a 1990s Acer to little bits dropping that one the second time on the same corner. Plastic chassis don’t hold guts so well when powderised! Knocked a pre-Lenovo ThinkPad so bad when it fell while running open and landed upside down that the hinge tore, the screen flopped, and the chassis got pulled so hard it never worked again, not even to get the data off. Accidentally stood right on a cute little Vaio once: crunchy! Boy was I not forgiven that mistake! Why’s it on the damn floor? And that PowerBook of mine has a fair buckle after its hardest ever fall, round back by the optical drive. It was on at the time. I was amazed it still worked. Got another 5 years out of it after that.

My best performing laptop in the Clumsy and/or Drunk Mu Drops and Stomps On Shit test was my 2013 15 inch MacBook Pro. Sold it back to Apple in 2020 entirely crack, crater, and buckle-free. Oh, I ruined the screen once but they replaced that by the free repair program they had to run for de-lamination a few years once that generation was out of warranty. So the old girl looked sneakily like new when I handed her over for the new M1 hotness! Fair served me well.

My Air’s a year and a bit old now and so far quite spotless. Seems to be a good shape for catching mid-drop! Being lighter really helps. That big 15 was DENSE and round edged every which way, making it as droppable as a goddamn soap-shaped iPhone 6. When I did ram the thing into the floor, though, it stayed the same shape. I’ll give it that. Even several hits on the same corner: for some reason it’s almost always the back right with me.

[vvp]

Don't get me started on those wavy ergo keyboards.

Kinesis Advantage and Maltron 3D are good. Any split keyboard is a progress. Split ones with thumb clusters are pretty good.

Old keyboards may be better when one limits himself to the standard layout but otherwise I do not agree.

[mmm]

I just wish something like that could also happen for all of the other peripherals. That is, if it is even needed. Are current monitors and mice really at their pinnacle? I just wonder...could they be better?

There are some pretty excellent mousing solutions available off-the-shelf, and it seems like they are only getting better over time. Modern gaming mice are pretty excellent, low weight, latency that compares with wired and excellent precision.
And for trackballs, off-the-shelf solutions are pretty great. And if you want something slightly better, there are DIY projects like Ploopy.
External trackpads seem to be a bit of a hit-and-miss for some reason. I enjoy my Apple Trackpad, but there is a bit of wireless latency.

[hellothere]

I just wish something like that could also happen for all of the other peripherals. That is, if it is even needed. Are current monitors and mice really at their pinnacle? I just wonder...could they be better?

There are some pretty excellent mousing solutions available off-the-shelf, and it seems like they are only getting better over time. Modern gaming mice are pretty excellent, low weight, latency that compares with wired and excellent precision.
And for trackballs, off-the-shelf solutions are pretty great. And if you want something slightly better, there are DIY projects like Ploopy.

External trackpads seem to be a bit of a hit-and-miss for some reason. I enjoy my Apple Trackpad, but there is a bit of wireless latency.

Monitors continue to get better and cheaper. I have a 27" 165hz 2K display next to me and I have no desire to ever go sub-60hz ever again. I think it was about $150 about 6 mo ago. µLED (so someone in this thread is either driving this tech or should buy this tech) is coming out and is awesome. We also went from 1024x768 to 1080p to 2K to 4K to 5K to 6K to 8K in a very short amount of time, so much so that the monitor tech outstrips content. I could also mention bit depth, HDR, etc.

I should mention that if you have a 10 year old monitor that you really should check out a new one, even if it's the same resolution. New monitors are considerably nicer.

I also agree that there are some nice mousing solutions out there, but I use a trackball. Not only that, but the trackball I have was originally introduced in the late 1980s and has only been updated for USB and for larger screens. Additionally, the trackball that most people have called teh best ev@h is the Microsoft Trackball Explorer and is the design that the Ploopy is based on.

Trackpads can be awesome, however, I don't like having a trackpad on the right (with me being right handed-ish), but directly in front of me. So, when I've taken my trackpad-abled laptops out, I use it. Otherwise, trackball all the way. If we really want to go old school, I also didn't mind laptops with the tiny trackball.

[Muirium]

Even µ prefers OLED. Quantum Dots, man. Heisenberg would be proud!

[JCMax]

Kinesis Advantage and Maltron 3D are good. Any split keyboard is a progress. Split ones with thumb clusters are pretty good.

Old keyboards may be better when one limits himself to the standard layout but otherwise I do not agree.

I was referring to keyboards like the Microsoft Sculpt or the Logitech ergo. I should have said I am referring more so to the key feel more than anything else. I just seem to bottom out hard with them. Though not as hard as with a chick-let key like my laptop or Apple keyboard.

I'm not counting the split boards since I haven't really had a chance to try them (It's on my to do list ). I am thinking about doing a custom keyboard build in the future as a first attempt to try one. I need to decide what switch to use.

For me though, I have noticed that whenever I use right posture when typing for my hands that the straight boards don't bother me. At that point what makes the biggest difference are the switches/construction.

Ditto on standard layout. But when you can adjust it via firmware you can use it or any other layout that you might think is more efficient. And then I think a Kishaver will win hands down over something like a cheap rubber dome.

[JCMax]

There are some pretty excellent mousing solutions available off-the-shelf, and it seems like they are only getting better over time. Modern gaming mice are pretty excellent, low weight, latency that compares with wired and excellent precision.
And for trackballs, off-the-shelf solutions are pretty great. And if you want something slightly better, there are DIY projects like Ploopy.
External trackpads seem to be a bit of a hit-and-miss for some reason. I enjoy my Apple Trackpad, but there is a bit of wireless latency.

My Corsair Scimitar Elite I bought last month is one of the BEST mice I have used. After trying some of the other demo mice at Best Buy like Logitech and Razer I went with it because of how it fit my hand and the way the button click felt. (The "candyland" RGB was a bonus also )

After that my Anker vertical mouse is next. (It only glows red in one spot though ) And then my J-Tech vertical is third. The vertical mice I may have a slight preference for, but not by much. They basically feel like you're using a joystick that you move around.

There was one mouse I tried at Office Depot several years back but it was out of budget at the time. It could convert from vertical to horizontal just by pushing the top panel up. I can't seem to find it now. Don't even know the name.

[Menuhin]

Spoiler:

The topic comes up quite routinely. Here’s one:

viewtopic.php?p=482950#p482950

Plenty of spicy hits if you search DT for CRT:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25405

In short: keyboards were already good enough, long ago indeed. The only way forward for them was downmarket. Everything else in hardware, meanwhile, sucked so hard it’s a miracle anyone ever used it. Displays, storage, memory, processors: all light years ahead of the past. Even printers are still fine. But keyboards? Brutalised for every penny!

An archetypal stance of the DT connoisseurs...!

[vvp]

Ditto on standard layout. But when you can adjust it via firmware you can use it or any other layout that you might think is more efficient.

My main point is that it is extremely comfortable to have all the modifiers on thumb clusters (not only ctrl/alt/win but also the shifts). Modern ergonomic keyboards can support this feature. I use keyboards with thumb clusters from 2002 and it "hurts" anytime I need to hunt modifiers with my pinkies when typing on a standard layout keyboard. That unfortunately cannot be completely avoided since most keyboards use the standard layout.

Good easily reachable thumb clusters are the main advantage. Left-right spit is nice. Other things like column stagger or even contouring are good but "meh".

[Findecanor]

IMHO, traditional digital arcade joysticks are better than a half Nintendo "Joy-con".

[JCMax]

Ditto on standard layout. But when you can adjust it via firmware you can use it or any other layout that you might think is more efficient.

My main point is that it is extremely comfortable to have all the modifiers on thumb clusters (not only ctrl/alt/win but also the shifts). Modern ergonomic keyboards can support this feature. I use keyboards with thumb clusters from 2002 and it "hurts" anytime I need to hunt modifiers with my pinkies when typing on a standard layout keyboard. That unfortunately cannot be completely avoided since most keyboards use the standard layout.

Good easily reachable thumb clusters are the main advantage. Left-right spit is nice. Other things like column stagger or even contouring are good but "meh".

Hmmmm...I need to get a board and try these thumb clusters then. They sound interesting.

Even µ prefers OLED. Quantum Dots, man. Heisenberg would be proud!

IMHO, traditional digital arcade joysticks are better than a half Nintendo "Joy-con".

True, From what I can see I will agree with you on that.

[davkol]

Monitors continue to get better and cheaper. I have a 27" 165hz 2K display next to me and I have no desire to ever go sub-60hz ever again. I think it was about $150 about 6 mo ago. µLED (so someone in this thread is either driving this tech or should buy this tech) is coming out and is awesome. We also went from 1024x768 to 1080p to 2K to 4K to 5K to 6K to 8K in a very short amount of time, so much so that the monitor tech outstrips content. I could also mention bit depth, HDR, etc.

I should mention that if you have a 10 year old monitor that you really should check out a new one, even if it's the same resolution. New monitors are considerably nicer.

Meh. I'm of two minds. On the one hand, I too appreciate going from shitty 1024×768 some 12 years ago to ca. 1600p recently. On the other hand…

• Old hi-end screens were already very good, although expensive, power hungry and what not.
• Then there was a time period when almost all new displays were cropped to 16:9, the backlight usually sucked,…
• Larger panels are lagging behind mobile screens, and on a related note, UI scaling sucks on virtually all systems, perhaps with the exception of macOS paired with Apple display that uses 200% scaling in hardware.

[CaesarAZealad]

Idk man the xbox 360 controller has kinda cemented itself as the default controller in the minds of most people. I remember when sony plagiarized made a similar asymmetrical controller it really became apparent to me that that design ain't going anywhere. Plus the things are built pretty decently if you don't abuse them, and have some good aftermarket mods

[hellothere]

• Larger panels are lagging behind mobile screens, and on a related note, UI scaling sucks on virtually all systems, perhaps with the exception of macOS paired with Apple display that uses 200% scaling in hardware.

As mentioned elsewhere, I'm 5000 years old and have bad eyes. The "scaling" on my Mac is really "use a different resolution." And all the displays connected to my Mac, even the 165hz one, look pretty terrible at resolutions they weren't built for. And I don't know why this is a problem on the Mac. You can scale all objects and fonts in Linux without going to a different resolution. Same with Windows 10. Luckily, most of the apps I use on the Mac are web-ized and Command + is my friend.

I know that collecting keyboards isn't really for greater work efficiency, but the things that will be life changing for you are:

* Better chair and/or posture pillows and/or a foot rest. 300,000 years and we haven't perfected the chair.
* Two or more decent monitors, at 60hz or better. This will help your headaches.
* New glasses/go for an appointment. This will also help your headaches.
* Faster Internet.
* More memory (RAM). Chrome monches and monches and monches on RAM.
* NVMe hard drives, if your computer can handle them. Solid state hard drives (SSDs), if you can't. If you still have spinning disk hard drives, you'll be amazed at how your computer has magically become faster.
* Better mouse. Before I knew there was such a thing as a trackball, I used mice and my shoulder and neck hated every minute of it. Using a trackball greatly helped my shoulder and helped my neck a little. I've since tried a lot of ergo mice and I keep going back to the trackball. I'm not saying that every one should use a trackball, but you should hop on down to Office Max/Best Buy and play with what they have on display. Or order a bunch from Amazon and return the ones you don't like.

All of the above doesn't have to be that expensive. It will definitely be worth it.

[Polecat]

As mentioned elsewhere, I'm 5000 years old and have bad eyes. The "scaling" on my Mac is really "use a different resolution." And all the displays connected to my Mac, even the 165hz one, look pretty terrible at resolutions they weren't built for. And I don't know why this is a problem on the Mac. You can scale all objects and fonts in Linux without going to a different resolution. Same with Windows 10. Luckily, most of the apps I use on the Mac are web-ized and Command + is my friend.

I know that collecting keyboards isn't really for greater work efficiency, but the things that will be life changing for you are:

* Better chair and/or posture pillows and/or a foot rest. 300,000 years and we haven't perfected the chair.
* Two or more decent monitors, at 60hz or better. This will help your headaches.
* New glasses/go for an appointment. This will also help your headaches.
* Faster Internet.
* More memory (RAM). Chrome monches and monches and monches on RAM.
* NVMe hard drives, if your computer can handle them. Solid state hard drives (SSDs), if you can't. If you still have spinning disk hard drives, you'll be amazed at how your computer has magically become faster.
* Better mouse. Before I knew there was such a thing as a trackball, I used mice and my shoulder and neck hated every minute of it. Using a trackball greatly helped my shoulder and helped my neck a little. I've since tried a lot of ergo mice and I keep going back to the trackball. I'm not saying that every one should use a trackball, but you should hop on down to Office Max/Best Buy and play with what they have on display. Or order a bunch from Amazon and return the ones you don't like.

All of the above doesn't have to be that expensive. It will definitely be worth it.

Thanks, that's a really good list. I'm listing excuses for the items I'm lacking, but they sound pretty weak even to me.

Chair: Yes. I stumbled onto an impossibly comfortable office chair several years back at a garage sale. It has survived the wife's attempt(s) to replace it, a replacement base modified to fit from a different chair, and two or three welding jobs to patch the frame back together. I hope to be buried sitting in it, it's really that good.
Monitor: No. Crappy Sony 15 inch. Ten bucks at a thrift store. Dead pixels encroaching from all four corners. I may get a new one. Or not.
Glasses: Nope. $1.99 readers from ebay China. Shipping was free.
Internet: Yes (!). Gigabit fiber. Really a waste for what we do, but it's all that's available here other than Comcast.
Memory: No idea, whatever came with the 'puter.
SSD: Yes, but only because it came that way.
Mouse: Yes. Logitech optical, old and generic but I haven't found anything better. Can't handle a trackball, I've tried several.

That's more yes answers than I expected, but enough negatives that I should still be much more miserable than I think I am. Hmmm.

[Muirium]

You're enough of a nerd to be a regular on DT but you "don't know" how much memory your computer has? Yeah right.

I'm with Elrick on this one: you only live once. Use good stuff while you have the chance.

Love it. A few hours of looking at something is all it takes to go from penny-watching prudence to all-out bells and whistles!

That is Life in general. If you are always in penny-pinching mode, you miss out on the BEST in Life.

Since Life is so short, why wait on being extensively pleased with owning and using a HHKB?

[Polecat]

You're enough of a nerd to be a regular on DT but you "don't know" how much memory your computer has? Yeah right.

I'm with Elrick on this one: you only live once. Use good stuff while you have the chance.

The Win7 PC says 8 GB. Is that as much as it sounds? I honestly had never checked. Back in the day I knew all that stuff. My first computer (CP/M) had 80K--64K base with the upper 16K page swapped. My first IBM-compatible PC, a Televideo XT clone, was 640K. It took a special gate array module to go past 512K, so that was a big deal at the time. I built all my PCs after that until Win95 came out. I lost interest after that, with registries and hidden log files and Billy's other nonsense. I'm just another dumb user now. I'll check the Mac next time it's fired up. No idea on that one either as it was a gift.

I had never spent more than 50 bucks on a keyboard until I bought the industrial gray K104. I had been looking for that one almost forever, after having one thirty years ago. I went over again on the Northgate 101I. But does that mean my cheapskate days are over? I think not. I'm just adjusting for inflation.

[Muirium]

8 gigs is more RAM than my phone, just. More than my watch, too. But less than my real computers.

I've been off Windows so long I've honestly no idea how old Windows 7 is. My last was XP. Are they on 11 or 12 now? Is it a new number every year, like every other OS these days?

My first machine was 32k, I think. It was my old man's but we kids were the only ones to ever use it. Similar story with our first PC. 512k, and ran GEM instead of Windows. So yeah I've a history as well, but still care about the figures, even on the new stuff. Software's job, evidently, is to ensure it still always matters!

[Bjerrk]

I've been off Windows so long I've honestly no idea how old Windows 7 is. My last was XP. Are they on 11 or 12 now? Is it a new number every year, like every other OS these days?

Quite the contrary! Windows 10 came out in 2015 and is supported at least until 2025. Windows 11 only came out a couple of months ago, I believe.

Sincerely someone whose last Windows installation was XP. Haven't used a closed-source OS since Back when Debian's latest stable release bore the delightful name Woody.

[CaesarAZealad]

Quite the contrary! Windows 10 came out in 2015 and is supported at least until 2025. Windows 11 only came out a couple of months ago, I believe.

Bruh only 2025? I really don't want to have to get windows 11 by then. I mean I guess I'll be done with college, but the less I have to update the better.

[Bjerrk]

College students have plenty of time, I say you write a new operating system instead of updating

[CaesarAZealad]

College students have plenty of time, I say you write a new operating system instead of updating

Not true XD