F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[NathanA]

I flashed a QMK layout. My keyboard has split backspace, so I have delete as the upper-rightmost key, with a small backspace to the left of it.

Trying to help but you need to be much more specific; to be clear, do you mean that you flashed one of the pre-baked QMK hex files from Ellipse, or do you mean you created a custom layout using the web-based QMK Configurator?

Having a split backspace with the left 1U being Backspace and the right 1U being Del is fairly unique so I'm guessing you went to the web configurator and created a custom hex file?

The reason I ask is because yours sounds like a software issue: a key with threshold of 0 is treated as a "dead" key, and the capacitive-sense auto-calibration routine will skip over a key and set it to threshold 0 if that key is not mapped to any function on layer 0. So it would be helpful if you took us step-by-step through exactly what firmware file you are flashing, and if it is a custom-generated one, be very specific about the steps that you went through in order to configure it. Perhaps it would even be easiest/best if you simply screenshotted what the QMK Configurator looked like immediately prior to you clicking the "Compile" button (so we can see what the "Keyboard" and "Layout" drop-downs have in them, as well as what particular function every single key on layer 0 is mapped to).

If you mean that your keyboard is physically configured for split-backspace (has springs & flippers in both barrels) but that you are flashing a QMK hex that is configured for a non-split 2U backspace, and you assumed that pressing either key would result in Backspace being transmitted...that will not work. You need to actually assign real key functions to both keys for both of them to work. You can set both keys to duplicate functions (e.g. Backspace) if you wish, but they must be set to something, not left as "N/A" (QMK keycode constant 'KC_NO').

[planedrop]

NathanA good idea - I have updated the first post with the firmware note.

planedrop did you follow every step of the solenoid setup video and instructional notes on the project web site? Also are you using firmware downloaded directly from the project site or firmware generated from pandrew's QMK configurator web site beginning with 35.164? Take a look at the manual on the project web site for an explanation on the specifics of what to do.

I am using the project firmware, though I got my keeb early so it was originally ordered with the xwhatsit on it, then I flashed a while back to QMK.

However, I did just do a EEPROM reset command and so far it seems a lot better, so I think I messed up the dwell time on it or something, it still can't quite keep up but it's a LOT better.

Though, I'd love a little more of a primer on what exactly dwell time is and how it changes solenoid behavior in this setting.

[Ellipse]

planedrop I made a video explaining the dwell time and showing examples - please see the manual for details. The solenoid will not function 100% unless the dwell time is set differently from the default value.

I suggest EEPROM erasing and flashing my unaltered hex file to troubleshoot the issue. Also check the solenoid physically and make sure the solenoid can move freely by hand. Sometimes the bracket may interfere if it is angled in the way.

[planedrop]

planedrop I made a video explaining the dwell time and showing examples - please see the manual for details. The solenoid will not function 100% unless the dwell time is set differently from the default value.

I suggest EEPROM erasing and flashing my unaltered hex file to troubleshoot the issue. Also check the solenoid physically and make sure the solenoid can move freely by hand. Sometimes the bracket may interfere if it is angled in the way.

Thanks for the help here! I did check the videos and didn't really see an explanation of dwell time, just recommended settings, maybe I missed something.

But I also did an EEPROM reset keyboard command and now the solenoid is keeping up with me just fine and sounds excellent, so not sure I want to mess with it anymore at this point.

[Ellipse]

I recently received some photos and interesting details on the IBM Code key, a rare buckling spring spacebar-type key found on wheelwriters and am sharing them, with permission:

"I ordered a whole set of the IBM Wheelwriter 3 keys, and I started putting some of them on the Model F.

The Code key is the size of a regular right shift key; it is 2" long. It does not fit where the right shift goes however, as the bottom stems are in different locations compared to a shift key.

I put mine where it was originally intended to be; the bottom left of the keyboard next to the spacebar. I think it will be my new Ctrl key.

The Code key is the exact same size as Right Shift is 2.75U with different stem and post locations." [stem and post are switched]

Seems like the code key requires a part of the keyboard arranged in a 1.5U+1.25U location. With the new Model F's it seems that this example is 1.5U+1U+fitting a 1U key where the 1.5U key would go.

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[trait]

Just trying out a Model F for the first time. It's a very nice feel, and I can see why it has been so lauded by others as one of the best typing experiences out there. Very sophisticated. But a little out of the norm for me.

Coming from 55g Topre domes and Box Navies, I find the typing too light and the tactility too subtle.

Is there any kind of (spring) mods that can make the springs heavier (harder to press down) and more clicky or tactile? Are there different types of springs available?

I did a quick online search, but didn't notice anything relevant. Might not be possible.

Perhaps a solenoid would help with the tactility?

Thanks in advance.

[wobbled]

Use the model F for longer, the tactility will grow on you.

I use 55g domes as well in some of my topre boards, and I always notice a difference in tactility when switching back to capacitive buckling spring, while the key stroke feels lighter, the tactile bump is more intense than topre.

If you want something that feels heavier but similar, I'd honestly suggest a Model M.

[Muirium]

Yup. Impatience is not a virtue. Give it a little patience. Or go grab a classy Unicomp!

[Starbag]

The new Unicomp Mini M is much more "stiff" than their Classic line Model M.
Tough for my weak fingers, like 2x to a Brand New Model F.

[robo]

Hmm... getting a bit frustrated about the inability to type capital F's at a fast typing speed here...

I followed the instructions about unplugging for extended time, as well as re-tightening the screws holding the controller PCB to the frame (which were already tight). But still, typing Left Shift + F results in lower case 'f' unless I'm deliberately a bit slow about it.

It doesn't seem to affect other keys around the F key, just F.

What can I do to fix this?

Update: here's something that might be interesting... I use Karabiner Elements and in it's event viewer, while typing F D G F (pressing Shift for each separately, not holding Shift down) I get output like this pretty consistently:

Code: Select all

type:down            HID usage: 7,225     name:{"key_code":"left_shift"}                               misc:flags left_shift
type:up              HID usage: 7,225     name:{"key_code":"left_shift"}                               misc:
type:down            HID usage: 7,9       name:{"key_code":"f"}                                        misc:
type:up              HID usage: 7,9       name:{"key_code":"f"}                                        misc:
type:down            HID usage: 7,225     name:{"key_code":"left_shift"}                               misc:flags left_shift
type:down            HID usage: 7,7       name:{"key_code":"d"}                                        misc:flags left_shift
type:up              HID usage: 7,225     name:{"key_code":"left_shift"}                               misc:
type:up              HID usage: 7,7       name:{"key_code":"d"}                                        misc:
type:down            HID usage: 7,225     name:{"key_code":"left_shift"}                               misc:flags left_shift
type:down            HID usage: 7,10      name:{"key_code":"g"}                                        misc:flags left_shift
type:up              HID usage: 7,225     name:{"key_code":"left_shift"}                               misc:
type:up              HID usage: 7,10      name:{"key_code":"g"}                                        misc:
type:down            HID usage: 7,225     name:{"key_code":"left_shift"}                               misc:flags left_shift
type:up              HID usage: 7,225     name:{"key_code":"left_shift"}                               misc:
type:down            HID usage: 7,9       name:{"key_code":"f"}                                        misc:
type:up              HID usage: 7,9       name:{"key_code":"f"}                                        misc:

Notice that specifically for the key_code "f", the left_shift key shows as being released before the "f" key, while for all the others it's released _after_ the letter key. I'm pretty sure i'm typing all the letters in a similar manner (and I've also been typing for 30 years without this issue, so i don't think it's PEBCAK).

[Muirium]

“Chopstick” out the spring on F. Swap it for a spare or with a working key. The springs themselves are detachable from the flipper.

Or if you prefer: dive in and swap the flipper too! It’s a Model F (Chinese clone with no quality control, asterisk asterisk) there’s nothing to be afraid of!

[robo]

Thanks - i don't have spare springs, but yeah, investigating further, I can better characterize the problem - when struck 'hard' (ie. normal fast typing) and held down, the F key doesn't register as being down. ie. if i hold down the F key, it doesn't type a letter F or repeat the letter, as all other keys do. It just prints a single F when I release it.

If I press it very gently, it does work normally. So there's something funny about the keyboard detecting that the flipper is down on that key, if struck 'hard'.

I'll try removing and re-seating the spring...

[Muirium]

Really does sound like a spring issue. Had them myself. Pull it out and you will likely see a perfectly obvious kink. Something you expect with 30 to 40-year-old originals.

[robo]

Well, flipped and reseated spring... it seemed like it was fixed for about 20 seconds, and now it's back to the old behavior.

Playing with the "Util for xwhatsit running QMK firmware" util I got from these boards somewhere, I can see that the signal level for this key when struck gently is just about 145 (the threshold for registering) but when struck harder (like in normal typing) it's more like 140.

Hmm..

[Muirium]

Swap the spring. It’s a dud. Best in the trash.

[robo]

I don't get it though... I took it out again and it's perfectly straight, no kinks or anything. Rolls smoothly across the table so basically no curve at all.

(I did not buy extra springs as I was not expecting to have to replace parts right away...)

[Muirium]

Swap it and see…

If you’re really unlucky the flipper is actually broken, probably at one of its pivots. You do not want this! But it is also unlikely. That would probably present more of a problem than you’re seeing.

(I did not buy extra springs as I was not expecting to have to replace parts right away...)

Welcome to self-QC!

[OxC0FFEE]

I recently received some photos and interesting details on the IBM Code key, a rare buckling spring spacebar-type key found on wheelwriters and am sharing them, with permission:

...

I put mine where it was originally intended to be; the bottom left of the keyboard next to the spacebar. I think it will be my new Ctrl key.

Would make a great vim escape key.

[robo]

Swap the spring. It’s a dud. Best in the trash.

Well, you were mostly right
I tried swapping the F and G key springs around, and now the F key works perfectly and the G key shows a lower signal level than the surrounding keys (like, 150s vs 170s) when depressed, but high enough that it works fine.

So, it was the spring, but maybe the spring in combination with that particular flipper?

Seems like I have a working board now, without having to purchase spare parts. Although now I'm seeing why some are buying replacement parts preemptively.

I hadn't bothered as I've used Model M's for 20+ years giving them no maintenance aside from a good key wash and vacuumnig every decade or so, but maybe Model F's are more finicky. Maybe part of the reason IBM switched to membranes?

[Sheepless]

Swap the spring. It’s a dud. Best in the trash.

Well, you were mostly right
I tried swapping the F and G key springs around, and now the F key works perfectly and the G key shows a lower signal level than the surrounding keys (like, 150s vs 170s) when depressed, but high enough that it works fine.

So, it was the spring, but maybe the spring in combination with that particular flipper?

Seems like I have a working board now, without having to purchase spare parts. Although now I'm seeing why some are buying replacement parts preemptively.

I hadn't bothered as I've used Model M's for 20+ years giving them no maintenance aside from a good key wash and vacuumnig every decade or so, but maybe Model F's are more finicky. Maybe part of the reason IBM switched to membranes?

I haven't noticed that genuine model F's are temperamental, and I have four.

[thefarside]

Swap the spring. It’s a dud. Best in the trash.

Well, you were mostly right
I tried swapping the F and G key springs around, and now the F key works perfectly and the G key shows a lower signal level than the surrounding keys (like, 150s vs 170s) when depressed, but high enough that it works fine.

So, it was the spring, but maybe the spring in combination with that particular flipper?

Seems like I have a working board now, without having to purchase spare parts. Although now I'm seeing why some are buying replacement parts preemptively.

I hadn't bothered as I've used Model M's for 20+ years giving them no maintenance aside from a good key wash and vacuumnig every decade or so, but maybe Model F's are more finicky. Maybe part of the reason IBM switched to membranes?

Both are great keyboards but I think the Model F is more durable. Aside from issues like yours they are fairly bulletproof. The nice thing about an F is that it can be completely disassembled unlike an M which destroys the plastic rivets and requires a replacement barrel plate or bolt/screw mod. I recently restored an F107 and the only replacement part it needed was new foam.

I would recommend buying the first aid kit. It has extra flippers and springs along with replacement foam if you ever need to open it up:
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product ... epair-kit/

[Muirium]

An IBM made, true Model F would never leave the factory with a dodgy key in the first place. Those signatures on its inner and outer labels were humans certifying it passed their rounds of quality control. Shame China just doesn’t do that.

I knew it was a dodgy spring because my Kishsaver had a fiddly key, which moved when I moved the spring like you did! Mind, that keyboard was made in 1986 and had been recovered from recycling in Asia while thirty-something years old. I wouldn’t call it finicky in the least! I’d call it a survivor.

[thefarside]

An IBM made, true Model F would never leave the factory with a dodgy key in the first place. Those signatures on its inner and outer labels were humans certifying it passed their rounds of quality control. Shame China just doesn’t do that.

I could see that given the price they charged back in the day. I thought it was almost $1000 adjusted for inflation. Which might be more like $2000 with the most recent adjustments

[Muirium]

Yes. They still show the class they were originally made with. By well paid, free people with jobs worth having and lives worth living. Those were the days!

[webwit]

For reference, at first I had some problems but those were fixed by pandrew's firmware updates. Now used it as a heavy duty daily driver close to two years. Not a single problem, feels as new (I have a spare new one to compare). Yes Ellipse is not equal to the whole of IBM of yesteryear. But I have an original kishsaver here and it's just as good and seems to hold up. I couldn't have asked for more for what is a personal project.

[NathanA]

Not a single problem, feels as new (I have a spare new one to compare). Yes Ellipse is not equal to the whole of IBM of yesteryear. But I have an original kishsaver here and it's just as good and seems to hold up. I couldn't have asked for more for what is a personal project.

This is my take, as well. I also have two Ellipse boards, both of which have had zero physical build/QA issues, and both of which are fantastic to use. But I do realize that's a small sample size and am not attempting to downplay anybody whose experience does not match mine.

That said, at this point a genuine IBM 4704 board is not only near-unobtanium for most people, but even if you could afford the four-figures most are demanding for one, you'd have to spend way more additional time and way more additional $$ on top of that in order to bring it back to full functionality and cosmetically-acceptable shape after a lifetime of neglect at this point than you would addressing whatever small handful of QA problems you might have with an Ellipse recreation.

Which is why the "bUt MuH iBm BoArD wUz BuIlT tO hIgHeR sTaNdArDz" cries just fall flat for me. In this the Year of Our Lord 2022, if you want something of this calibre, there really are only two choices: one is to buy a completely beat-up original IBM for truly stupid money (assuming anybody even has one that they're willing to sell!) that is in much worse shape than any board that Ellipse has ever shipped out & then put in the truly staggering amounts of elbow-grease and additional money into both getting it back to "like-new" condition and adapting it to work with modern systems, and the other is to spend ~USD$400-ish on an Ellipse recreation that's (relatively ) readily available and then be prepared to be a bit initially inconvenienced if you run into a rough patch or two.

Again, not excusing any hardware problems that some might've run into. But let's get some perspective...

[Ellipse]

Not a single problem, feels as new (I have a spare new one to compare). Yes Ellipse is not equal to the whole of IBM of yesteryear. But I have an original kishsaver here and it's just as good and seems to hold up. I couldn't have asked for more for what is a personal project.

This is my take, as well. I also have two Ellipse boards, both of which have had zero physical build/QA issues, and both of which are fantastic to use. But I do realize that's a small sample size and am not attempting to downplay anybody whose experience does not match mine.

That said, at this point a genuine IBM 4704 board is not only near-unobtanium for most people, but even if you could afford the four-figures most are demanding for one, you'd have to spend way more additional time and way more additional $$ on top of that in order to bring it back to full functionality and cosmetically-acceptable shape after a lifetime of neglect at this point than you would addressing whatever small handful of QA problems you might have with an Ellipse recreation.

Which is why the "bUt MuH iBm BoArD wUz BuIlT tO hIgHeR sTaNdArDz" cries just fall flat for me. In this the Year of Our Lord 2022, if you want something of this calibre, there really are only two choices: one is to buy a completely beat-up original IBM for truly stupid money (assuming anybody even has one that they're willing to sell!) that is in much worse shape than any board that Ellipse has ever shipped out & then put in the truly staggering amounts of elbow-grease and additional money into both getting it back to "like-new" condition and adapting it to work with modern systems, and the other is to spend ~USD$400-ish on an Ellipse recreation that's readily available and then be prepared to be a bit initially inconvenienced if you run into a rough patch or two.

Thanks for the feedback webwit and NathanA. I think the thread would definitely benefit from feedback from folks who have been using their new Model F keyboards for months/years at this point - please do share!

Since I've mailed out over 840 keyboards over the past 5-6 weeks we are seeing more issues popping up compared to the December 2019-Feb 2022 period where 1968 keyboards went out over that entire time period where I was not the bottleneck as I am now. Mostly I'm seeing requests for replacements of keys that were broken in shipping. Fortunately there are nearly zero issues with soldering of the ribbon cable, which was a more prominent issue with the earlier two container shipments.

IBM's quality control is legendary. I particularly liked the IBM internal newsletter article discussing the Model F keyboards and showing the quality control steps that involved an employee putting a microphone to the keyboard and pressing the keys to make sure everything was good. There is definitely room for discussion over whether the factory should be doing additional QC work to install and test the sounds for every key. This work would have added at least another 1-2 months of work for the factory, a small additional cost per keyboard, and would have vastly increased the complexity of installing specific key sets on specific boards, now that there are a couple dozen key set options, not counting the exponential options with the additional right side blocks, Mac Sets, and Industrial SSK and Front Printed F1-F12 12 key sets. The advantage of this installation would of course be reduced setup time for the end user as well as a reduced chance of damaged keys if most keys are installed in the barrels.

[Clavius]

I ordered my board in June 2017, and Monday my F77 came in the mail. A hair shy of five years haha It took a bit of fiddling to get all keys moving smoothly, but now it's working perfectly. I'm absolutely loving it, thanks Joe for all the work you put into this!

One thing I noticed is that there is a bit of a 'smear' in the paintwork on top of the case, where the red basecoat shines through (I have a grey one), did others also experience this?
Also, I seem to recall there is a key combo you can do to choose between different layouts for the numpad, but I didn't find anything about this in the manual. Is this true?

[Muirium]

@Nathan

Are there even 4704s still out there that haven't been fixed up yet?



The four I proxied for Tinnie from his haul were all in pretty good shape, even without a lick of work on them. Indeed, mine (bottom left) still hasn't had any touching up. I scrubbed the zinc case, and that was it for cosmetics. I installed an Xwhatsit controller (the very first one in a 4704) and modified the layout a little, but I've not even touched the foam. It's a cracking wee keyboard, from 1986 IBM with love.

Of course, someone would have to offer a true fortune to pry it from me now. Of all my IBMs, it's the one I love and use the most. So much sentimental value as well. I've been offered $2500 for it but that doesn't tempt me for a moment. Maybe someday…

Now I agree with you re: everyone else's perspective who doesn't already have the OG. What gets my goat, however, is when people insist Ellipse's problems were also IBM's. My reaction above was literally to a complaint about all Model F vs. the ever so reliable Model M. Nope! I'm not biting my tongue when someone's talking shite about the best all-round keyboards IBM ever made. Model F makes Model M cry in a corner, deservedly so.

[thefarside]

Something that will never happen with a a 4704 original or reproduction, short of a high caliber round:

IMG_5533.JPG (39.13 KiB) Viewed 4884 times

My Model M was sadly destroyed while in transit.

I've been using my New F77 for 1.5 years and haven't had any issues. I can't discern any major differences between it and my F AT and 107. I'd also like to mention how nice the keys are from ellipse. Below is a new combination I made of dark grey and industrial blue.

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