F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Arkku]

Also, I heard there are some flippers (XT maybe?) that have angled edges and might not be compatible with AT and 4704 style flippers. I can’t speak from experience and maybe someone who knows better can chime in. I know the reproductions are AT and 4704 style.

Well, I have a Model F XT, and I just went and swapped all of the new flippers in my F62 with the ones from the XT. The F62 works just fine with them, but the flippers do appear to have a slightly sharper angle to them. I find this does subtly affect the typing feel, which is why I wanted to change them. But I can confirm they are functionally compatible; all keys work fine.

[PRIPARA_PLAYER]

- I am Italian but for some years now I have not used the ITA layout anymore, I only use the US layout. I have a question: to write in Italian I need to use accents (and the apostrophe) that on the US keyboard for the grave accent I have to press first ~ `(top left under esc) then the letter concerned and it will come out for example the accented letter "è". This keyboard doesn't have that key but it has the esc key in its place, how am I going to type?

Note that you can remap keys as you prefer. Personally I have the ~` key in the top left corner, and to get Esc I can press Fn together with that key. My Fn key is done using the split right shift. Of course you can also do the same the other way around, so that it is Esc normally but Fn + Esc is ~`, whichever you use more.

Another thing you can do to get an Esc is to configure a key like Ctrl as a combo key that works as Ctrl when you hold it and press another key, but sends Esc if you only tap it. (I do this with the "caps lock" key, i.e., the key that is above left shift.)

Splitting the backspace is of course a viable option, which I have also tried but I seem to have a reflex to press the left side of backspace when I correct a typo I just made and the right side of backspace when I'm deleting something that was there before… So it may take a bit of getting used to. (I converted one of my F77s to a split backspace first but reverted it back to a normal backspace a week later. I'm still trying the split backspace on my F62, though.)


Anyway, my point is: these keyboards are very customisable: you can do custom mappings in firmware, including one or more "Fn" keys and layers that you can toggle between, and if you get a few extra keycaps you can split or unsplit keys later.

I'm in a similar situation where I need the JIS 半角／全角 key (which is on the ~ keycode) - what I did was split left shift and place it on the extra key I got from that. It ends up being a much more convenient location anyway.

[morkl]

My F62 arrived a few weeks ago and I've been daily driving it since. The Esc key was a bit bowlegged and required some squeezing to get it to move freely, but other than that it's been running flawlessly. Great work Ellipse and everyone else involved!

I do seem to be missing a 1.5U Ctrl key though. At first I thought one might have been replaced with a Caps lock since I ordered a HHKB-adjacent layout. But then I noticed that there's two 1.5U Caps lock keys in the bag, which makes me suspect a mix-up instead?

If there's anyone in the EU who's got an extra 1.5U Ctrl and needs a 1.5U Caps lock, feel free to hit me up. Seems like a shame to pay tens of euros in import duties and handling fees for a single key

My preferred layout uses the caps lock position as a function key and does away with the caps lock key entirely:

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[Arkku]

I'm in a similar situation where I need the JIS 半角／全角 key (which is on the ~ keycode) - what I did was split left shift and place it on the extra key I got from that. It ends up being a much more convenient location anyway.

Left shift is already split on the ISO layouts normally, so that key is typically already in use for something else. Apple does exchange it with the top left corner key by default, compared to PC keyboards, so in that sense your approach is almost standard. =)

[PRIPARA_PLAYER]

I'm in a similar situation where I need the JIS 半角／全角 key (which is on the ~ keycode) - what I did was split left shift and place it on the extra key I got from that. It ends up being a much more convenient location anyway.

Left shift is already split on the ISO layouts normally, so that key is typically already in use for something else. Apple does exchange it with the top left corner key by default, compared to PC keyboards, so in that sense your approach is almost standard. =)

You could follow similar logic for ISO and split right shift instead (which JIS has split by default), although obviously that doesn't work if you already have the HHKB split

[Arkku]

You could follow similar logic for ISO and split right shift instead (which JIS has split by default), although obviously that doesn't work if you already have the HHKB split

Yes, although I do have the HHKB split on right shift on all my keyboards, since I put the Fn key on the split. Another key that can be split is Enter: I wanted dark gray keys and the ISO enter key was/is not available in that colour, so I made a DIY ISO enter by using two separate keys (1.25U and 1.5U, I think). However, in practice I notice I only press one of them, so the other could also be repurposed into a new key.

[Ellipse]

Here's a nice in-depth article on mechanical keyboards featured on the home page of The New Yorker today - the Brand New Model F project is mentioned:

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-o ... -tinkerers

[gkaplan63]

I have a brand new F77 from Modelfkeyboards.com. Every key appears to work perfectly except for two, the number "1" and the number "4" key. When pressed lightly, they register properly, but if a slightly heavier force is used, they don't register until the key is released. I've removed the keycaps a few times, gently compressed the spring to see if that would help, but it continues to have this behavior. Also, if the heavier force is used and the key remains down, it does not repeat.

Any ideas how to troubleshoot this problem?

[jsheradin]

Here's a nice in-depth article on mechanical keyboards featured on the home page of The New Yorker today - the Brand New Model F project is mentioned:

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-o ... -tinkerers

Much better than CNN's attempt

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[thefarside]

I have a brand new F77 from Modelfkeyboards.com. Every key appears to work perfectly except for two, the number "1" and the number "4" key. When pressed lightly, they register properly, but if a slightly heavier force is used, they don't register until the key is released. I've removed the keycaps a few times, gently compressed the spring to see if that would help, but it continues to have this behavior. Also, if the heavier force is used and the key remains down, it does not repeat.

Any ideas how to troubleshoot this problem?

I’m no Model F expert but I’d try the following:
1) Remove the keys and check the spring orientation. I believe the top of the spring should end at the 12 o’clock position. If not maybe the spring is disoriented? If everything looks good I’d also remove the 2 and 3 keys if they work correctly to compare. They should all generally be at the same position and have the same spring orientation.

2) Check to see if the 2 and 3 key springs look positioned similarly to 1 and 4 (same position in the barrel, spring orientation, etc.)

3) Test the keys by putting the 2 and 3 keys on the 1 and 4 barrels. Do they work fine or have the same issue? If they still have the same issue it’s not the keys. If they work fine perhaps the keys aren’t seating the spring properly? If so there could be a chance the keys need to be replaced. Remember the keys are installed with the springs being towards the back of the barrel which requires the keyboard to be vertical.

4) Test the 1 and 4 flippers. Pull off the key caps and using your finger push the top of the spring back gently.e which releases the flipper from the PCB. Does the key no longer register? Then let go and it should fall back down and register. Repeat for keys 2, 3 and 4. Do they all work the same? If not there could be something under the flipper.

5) If all else fails you might have to open the keyboard and inspect the PCB, flippers and barrels.

[Senator]

Finally received my keyboard as well... but it's is not being recognized at all by any computer via the QMK Toolbox or otherwise. Reset all the keys, jiggled the cable, no detection of the keyboard at all. What is the next step? Open the case? Are there any guides or videos on the next step for troubleshooting?

[wufishy]

Hi, just wondering, what are the front heights like for the new model F keyboards? Thanks!

[Arkku]

Hi, just wondering, what are the front heights like for the new model F keyboards? Thanks!

About 24–25mm to the flat part in front of the keys (without feet on the zinc case and with cork feet on the aluminium case, which has protruding screws on the bottom and needs the feet).

[wufishy]

flat part in front of the keys.

Do you mean from the desk to the front bottom edge of the keycap? Thanks!

[Arkku]

Do you mean from the desk to the front bottom edge of the keycap? Thanks!

Yes, but you need to add the feet if you use them, and there are different options… This is with cork feet:

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(Angle of photo may result in slight inaccuracy, but it is just over 25mm, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was intended to be exactly 1 inch.)

[wufishy]

I see I see thanks!

[Miky2147]

Hello, so what are the shipping times if I order an F77? Are they available immediately now? Thank you

[Ellipse]

Senator please check the connection of the cable to the connector, which may be inside the keyboard - it may have loosened during shipping. Maybe the firmware may need re-flashing for some reason.

Miky2147 yes I am currently shipping keyboards and they are in stock but I am still going through the backlog. If you want to order a Brand New Model F Keyboard now is a good time to join the project before stock runs out and the prices go up for the final round.

[Senator]

Thank you! The cable connector ended up being exactly the issue. Issue resolved after opening the case.

[Ellipse]

Venue request - NYC - 9/29 - one month from today:

Good news - my talk on the new Model F project has been finalized for Thursday Sept. 29 (limited to employees only of the major tech company that invited me) - just a reminder to see if anyone is able to host a meetup open to the public on that same day in the early afternoon in Manhattan - please PM or email me. I could go through the presentation again if folks are interested (it will not be too long). Hoping people can try out the new F and new Beam Spring keyboards, chat with each other, ask questions, etc.

[Miky2147]

I have a brand new F77 from Modelfkeyboards.com. Every key appears to work perfectly except for two, the number "1" and the number "4" key. When pressed lightly, they register properly, but if a slightly heavier force is used, they don't register until the key is released. I've removed the keycaps a few times, gently compressed the spring to see if that would help, but it continues to have this behavior. Also, if the heavier force is used and the key remains down, it does not repeat.

Any ideas how to troubleshoot this problem?

Hello, have you solved your problem?

[Ellipse]

Arkku thanks for posting that photo showing the front bezel height.

Miky2147 please do not assume anyone is left with a nonworking keyboard based on these posts. The manual fully explains how to set up the keyboard to make sure each key works - see the initial setup and troubleshooting sections in particular. The procedure described in your quoted post is not the recommended procedure that would fix the issue that was described. Removing and flipping the spring upside down, and later replacing the spring (if not damaged, the spring can usually be switched with another spring if you do not have spares at the moment) are the last recommended steps to fix one key that is not working; this procedure is described in the manual and also shown in the Quality Control Secrets video shown in the manual. I strongly recommend reading the manual fully before starting any Model F setup, even if you are familiar with buckling spring keyboards.

[gkaplan63]

I have a brand new F77 from Modelfkeyboards.com. Every key appears to work perfectly except for two, the number "1" and the number "4" key. When pressed lightly, they register properly, but if a slightly heavier force is used, they don't register until the key is released. I've removed the keycaps a few times, gently compressed the spring to see if that would help, but it continues to have this behavior. Also, if the heavier force is used and the key remains down, it does not repeat.

Any ideas how to troubleshoot this problem?

Hello, have you solved your problem?

Partially, but now the problem moved to the spacebar. I opened the covers, made sure everything was properly lined up, and closed the covers. After doing that, the key worked again and then the spacebar has that behavior.

Basically, pressing the spacebar with light pressure registers, but with a bit more normal force, the space doesn't register until I let go. I'll tinker some more.

[zhoulander]

FWIW I'm very happy with my board, but it took a bit of work.
Naturally you'll hear more from people who need help solving their problems, and less from people who have no problems. Here's my feedback/experience.

I ordered my F77 in October 2016 and received the board April 2022.

First impressions back in April:
- It feels amazing, but noisy as heck
- Too pingy and inconsistent compared to my other Ms
- Manual was intimidating, and I was too impatient to watch youtube videos of text. Felt difficult to find information I needed (installing stabilizers, programming QMK).
- Thought I installed a stabilizer incorrectly and took a while before RTFM to find the screw method. Turns out I just have an Enter key that liked to bind a bit.
- Typing felt weirdly inconsistent, like keys weren't registering properly or dropping presses.
- I'm on Mac now and don't want to give up Touch ID
- I spent all this money and waited so long for a board I'm not immediately fully happy with!?
- Read / watched some reviews about how people weren't quite happy with theirs either / couldn't bring themselves to use it as a daily board... exacerbated my negative feelings...
- AND there is a TKL Beamspring in the works??

So I tucked it away for a few months (with my other custom collector novelty items like those ThinkPad X62/etc) to instead enjoy summer and touch grass.

Got the urge to clean up some unfinished projects so revisted it again a couple weeks ago:
- Spent a day with the board and discovered the "F" key wouldn't register properly - sometimes it would register out of order, or only on up-stroke. Wanted to avoid opening it up to 'tighten the screws' so kept reading..
- Upon closer inspection the spring was installed around 2 o'clock mark. Reinstalled it at 12 o'clock and now it works perfectly. Such a seemingly tiny adjustment makes the difference between a properly working key and misbehaving key.
- Modded with super floss. Reduces the fatigue from listening to the pinging. Satisfaction went up significantly. Fixing my F key and removing the ping finally made me feel good about this purchase.
- Stole some classic caps off my Model M to round out the build
- Spent the 10 minutes to watch the QMK programming video - would have preferred text & animated GIFs, but now I finally customized the right-side block.
- Learned more about Quantum keys. Added the Esc/~ key (helps a TON with unix work). Now I am making a shopping list to split my backspace and shorten the spacebar. Also semi-contemplating adding a F62 "FHKB" to my fleet.

If you're feeling upset with your purchase:
- Be patient, do not rush the build/fixes
- Read the manual
- Watch the videos
You've invested hundreds of dollars and waited a long time for the board to be delivered. Spend the time and understand the setup process and common fixes.

I'm now almost 100% happy with my board, just need to split a couple more keys. If you're indecisive about layouts like me I'd recommend buying the extra parts upfront.

Almost its final form - same board, two configs. The blue #s seem a bit much and might revert.

[EDEADLINK]

I received my keyboard and got them fully working and customized. They sound and feel great, though I'm still slower on them than on my laptop keyboard it is much more fun to type on them.

Anyhow, how is the upstreaming of the qmk firmware going?
I know C, so I could lend some time but I don't know what still needs doing or if other people (pandrew) are still working on it.

[sedevidi]

Anyhow, how is the upstreaming of the qmk firmware going?
I know C, so I could lend some time but I don't know what still needs doing or if other people (pandrew) are still working on it.

There are some info on this very subject a few pages earlier.
ARKKU also developped another firmware, using and improving the capacitive detection and calibration, forked from the QMK source.
Blending all this back together (along with Vial from NathanA, etc.) and upstream would be marvelous for many of us

[Arkku]

ARKKU also developped another firmware, using and improving the capacitive detection and calibration, forked from the QMK source.
Blending all this back together (along with Vial from NathanA, etc.) and upstream would be marvelous for many of us

To be precise, my firmware specifically exists as an alternative to QMK and has an independent implementation of the actual keyboard functionality (i.e., the keymaps/layers/macros/etc as well as the USB implementation) that is not forked from anywhere else. That being said, the part that is specific to the Model F / capsense keyboards is heavily based on pandrew's firmware, apart from the tweaks that you mentioned (+ saving of calibration to EEPROM for faster startup when keys are down on power-up).

It would be quite easy to port my changes back to pandrew's firmware, which in turn is very easy to port back to QMK (in fact I have done so, before I got my own firmware fully working). Pretty much all of it is in the matrix.c file, it might even work just by copying that file (and the relevant headers) back, although I have deleted support for some unused debug stuff from mine.

[Ellipse]

pandrew controllers note: I have ordered 20 assembled pandrew 3178/122/AT/Unsaver type controllers from JLCPCB (I have USB-C 5V pro micro controllers as well, though you'd have to solder these as well as solder any header if needed (I have spare 90 degree and straight up header pins). 2 of these are for my recent 3178 Model F keyboards, of which one is for sale on the project web site. Please do PM or email me if interested.

Arkku this is very impressive! Now we have three types of firmware for Model F keyboards (xwhatsit, QMK/Via, and yours). Any plans for your firmware to support Rico's RP2040-based controller currently in development? https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=117555.0

Posting with permission another nice setup - an ultra compact case F62 with dark gray keycaps.

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[Ellipse]

Some more spring research tidbits -

Adjusting the distance between the bottom of the spring and the bottom of the nub of the flipper can oftentimes eliminate buzzing of the spring. Sometimes it's too much distance; wiggling a fingernail in between to widen things can eliminate the buzz. In other examples, moving the spring downwards can fix things. That's why removing and reseating a spring can remove the buzz sound from the spring because it happens to be in a different distance with each installation.

I also had some experiments done with a low number of hours in salt spray testing to see if the springs could be corroded and/or artificially aged. Even with the springs left in for the full amount of the test (~10 hours or so - not enough for full testing) the new production springs did not visibly corrode. Unfortunately there was no benefit to this artificial aging in terms of sound quality (though maybe the test was too brief) so no springs will be offered with this option.

Spring Assembly - Spring Bottom location on flipper.jpg (389.42 KiB) Viewed 3881 times

[Arkku]

Arkku this is very impressive! Now we have three types of firmware for Model F keyboards (xwhatsit, QMK/Via, and yours). Any plans for your firmware to support Rico's RP2040-based controller currently in development? https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=117555.0

I have been following that project with some interest... However, due to different hardware a lot of stuff would need to be reimplemented, including the USB communication (I didn't use any library for it, and I believe even the LUFA used by QMK is specific to AVR). I have done some preliminary work to support non-AVR platforms (since I have a GMMK Pro keyboard which I would also like to run my own firmware on), but it is nowhere near ready at this time.

Based on the latest post in that project, it sounds like Rico is planning to also use QMK as the base, but also that QMK does not support that platform. So, I would say that if they do the firmware on top of QMK and I manage to decouple the USB communication from the AVR platform, porting the keyboard-specific parts (i.e., capsense) will be relatively easy, but also means my improvements will have to be re-done (by either me or Rico) for there to be any benefit.

Anyway, let's see when these controllers become available. In the meantime, my firmware is using only about half the RAM and ROM of the ATMEGA32U2 so there is room to grow. I have also managed to get the scan rate well under 1 ms, so the USB HID maximum of 1000 Hz polling is already quite reachable, and the potential latency gains are quite small on the F62 and F77 (but on larger keyboards perhaps there are more gains to be had). One obvious thing that is not really doable on the ATMEGA32U2 is Bluetooth.