[WTB] Northgate Omnikey 101P, 102P, Ultra-TP, Avant Stellar, ProXellent

[engr]

Looking for a 4th Gen Omnikey that is fully functional, including ability to program (i.e. whose programmable chip is not dead). If some of the switches are broken, that's OK, as long as the PCB is functional. I already have an Avant Prime, so I am looking specifically for a 101P, 102P, Ultra-TP, or Avant Stellar.

EDIT: Added programmable ProXellent (Alps chassis) boards to the list.

[Alectardy98]

good luck on the hunt mate

[Polecat]

101P just popped up on ebay (not mine)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304691578641

[headphone_jack]

FWIW, the programming chip doesn't die, it just isn't compatible with modern versions of Windows. I wager it'd work with anything pre-Vista, but that's just me spitballing.

[Polecat]

Actually the early 8 pin serial EEPROMs were notoriously flaky, and were good for a very limited number of cycles before they would no longer rewrite correctly. But they're easily replaced, as long as you can find a new one of the same type.

[engr]

101P just popped up on ebay (not mine)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304691578641

Yep, I've seen it. Unfortunately, the seller has not and does not want to test it. Also, so much yellowing.

[engr]

FWIW, the programming chip doesn't die, it just isn't compatible with modern versions of Windows. I wager it'd work with anything pre-Vista, but that's just me spitballing.

The chip itself works on modern Windows systems, so it is possible to remap the keys manually. However, the original programming software was only compatible with old versions of Windows, although it looks like someone wrote a new version for Windows 7 and later.

As Polecat said, programming chip was notorious for dying. What little info I could find online said that people would just desolder it so the keyboard would still work (just without programming/remapping capability). I think Bob Tibbetts used to even desolder this chip pre-emptively because it was so prone to failure. I did not know that it was possible to buy an aftermarket replacement, I will have to look into it.

[Polecat]

The serial EEPROM is a 24C16 (8 pin DIP, not SMT). Looks like they're readily available. I haven't tried replacing a bad one, so I'm just assuming it stores only the settings, and not firmware. And that swapping in a new one would fix the programming issue. But I may be wrong about that. I have only one programmable Northgate, a black Avant Stellar. I posted a photo of the macro instruction sticker some time back, and that part still worked on mine the last time I used it.

edit: the instructions for the macro part:

viewtopic.php?p=504020#p504020

and the ANSIfy mod idea I stole from someone else here:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17564

[engr]

The serial EEPROM is a 24C16 (8 pin DIP, not SMT). Looks like they're readily available. I haven't tried replacing a bad one, so I'm just assuming it stores only the settings, and not firmware.

Thanks. I will have to look into it, at a minimum, I would like to have a spare one for my Avant Prime.

That black Avant Stellar is basically my ideal keyboard: bulletproof chassis, Alps switches, battlecruiser layout with Windows keys, and full programmability without bloatware. The only imperfect things about it are simplified Alps and pad printed keys, but these can be swapped like you did.

[Polecat]

I never found replacements for the left side F-keys and a few other special ones. That's part of the reason I never finished that project. But it's close to my ideal keyboard too. I believe some of the Gen4 Northgates and beige Avants might have come with double shot caps, but I'm not quite ready to claim that as a fact. The black Avants probably all had the printed caps with an ugly blob of clear paint on top. I'm still not sure if there was a black Avant Prime available, or just the black Avant Stellar?

[engr]

Some or all 101P from Gen4a (with Northgate label) definitely have double-shot keycaps (well, except for up arrow and Windows/Menu keys).
For left side F keys I would take these relegendable keycaps and spray paint them with black paint (doesn't have to be perfect, since the clear cover would protect it). TaiHao's new WonB set has the other special keys, except for the BAE (which they have, but sadly it has a different stabilizer). Unfortunately it's cubic, so not a perfect match.

[Polecat]

Some or all 101P from Gen4a (with Northgate label) definitely have double-shot keycaps (well, except for up arrow and Windows/Menu keys).
For left side F keys I would take these relegendable keycaps and spray paint them with black paint (doesn't have to be perfect, since the clear cover would protect it). TaiHao's new WonB set has the other special keys, except for the BAE (which they have, but sadly it has a different stabilizer). Unfortunately it's cubic, so not a perfect match.

Thank you, great idea on the relegendables. It wouldn't be too hard to label them with white rub-on letters after painting them black, and that would be protected by the clear covers. But that still leaves the odd keys in the bottom row and one or two others (the original backslash and the + and = in the numpad).

[engr]

But that still leaves the odd keys in the bottom row and one or two others (the original backslash and the + and = in the numpad).

TaiHao's new set has all these odd bottom row keys and the split shift/backslash. The other ones, yep, they would still be a problem.

[Polecat]

But that still leaves the odd keys in the bottom row and one or two others (the original backslash and the + and = in the numpad).

TaiHao's new set has all these odd bottom row keys and the split shift/backslash. The other ones, yep, they would still be a problem.

Hmmm, when I looked at the new Tai Hao set I had the Avant in mind, and it seemed like a no-go. Looking again now and I don't see a R1 backslash or a R0 1u Windows Menu key. Also the Tai Hao spacebars use MX inserts for the stabilizer wire, and there's nothing to keep it from rotating unless you install Costar-style guides on the plate. I guess I could glue on a guide pin mount but that and the missing numpad and bottom row caps takes all the fun out of it for me. I actually have a source for the + and = numpad caps. They're pad printed, but I don't think I'd ever wear the legends off of those.

[engr]

Hmmm, when I looked at the new Tai Hao set I had the Avant in mind, and it seemed like a no-go. Looking again now and I don't see a R1 backslash or a R0 1u Windows Menu key. Also the Tai Hao spacebars use MX inserts for the stabilizer wire, and there's nothing to keep it from rotating unless you install Costar-style guides on the plate. I guess I could glue on a guide pin mount but that and the missing numpad and bottom row caps takes all the fun out of it for me. I actually have a source for the + and = numpad caps. They're pad printed, but I don't think I'd ever wear the legends off of those.

I would replace the R1 backslash with the other backslash they have (R2 or R0), and Menu key with Fn key. They won't be a perfect match because of the row, but in practice the difference is barely noticeable (I did this experiment on my Avant Prime; I will try to upload some pictures this weekend). The spacebar is going to be the biggest issue for the reason you described; I ran into this problem when I was replacing the original keycaps on my black AT101W with a Tai-Hao set; Matias MX inserts and stab wire worked pretty well for stabilizing the bar in roll direction but not in yaw direction, so at the end I decided to leave the original spacebar in place even though it wasn't a perfect color match.

If I don't succeed with getting a 101P, I will see if I can install some grey Focus keycaps on my Avant Prime (speaking of which, if anyone here has R0 1u keycaps from Focus, or even an entire Focus keycap set without shine or yellowing, I will be happy to buy some). The biggest problem is going to be BAE, I don't have an extra one from an Omnikey, and Focus' BAE has different stabs.

[Polecat]

I would replace the R1 backslash with the other backslash they have (R2 or R0), and Menu key with Fn key. They won't be a perfect match because of the row, but in practice the difference is barely noticeable (I did this experiment on my Avant Prime; I will try to upload some pictures this weekend). The spacebar is going to be the biggest issue for the reason you described; I ran into this problem when I was replacing the original keycaps on my black AT101W with a Tai-Hao set; Matias MX inserts and stab wire worked pretty well for stabilizing the bar in roll direction but not in yaw direction, so at the end I decided to leave the original spacebar in place even though it wasn't a perfect color match.

If I don't succeed with getting a 101P, I will see if I can install some grey Focus keycaps on my Avant Prime (speaking of which, if anyone here has R0 1u keycaps from Focus, or even an entire Focus keycap set without shine or yellowing, I will be happy to buy some). The biggest problem is going to be BAE, I don't have an extra one from an Omnikey, and Focus' BAE has different stabs.

I've dealt with a couple of those issues myself. Some Datacomps have a R1 1u backslash (printed), in dark gray rather than black. I used one of those on a late Focus:

viewtopic.php?p=446835#p446835

The Focus BAE came two ways. Early ones, with no Winkeys, with or without the extra keys on the bottom row, came with a single wire and guide post just like Northgate. Late ones with Winkeys had the two stab wires. That version was also used on some Datacomps and Montereys. The black one on the gray Focus in the above link is from a Datacomp. Again printed, not double shot. Or you can use the ANSI Enter and backslash like I did on the black Focus in the above link (and on the Avant Stellar), and use the original backslash for something else. I had a leftover Macro key from the Focus FK-2002 that I used on the Focus. A black spacebar from a Strongman solves that problem, that's what I used on my KB-101A. None of those are ideal, but they all match the row and stabilizers. I have nothing against Tai Hao, quite the opposite, but their set just doesn't do much for me on the Avants and Northgates.

[engr]

The Focus BAE came two ways. Early ones, with no Winkeys, with or without the extra keys on the bottom row, came with a single wire and guide post just like Northgate. Late ones with Winkeys had the two stab wires.

I have two win-keyless FK-2001s, one with pine white Alps and an empty space between Ctrl and Alt, and another one with Alps clones and with 1u keys in the bottom row. I am 99% sure both have 2 stab wires, but I will double-check tonight.

I wish I knew who bought Bob Tibbetts' collection of Omnikey spare parts, then I would probably be able to order all parts needed for this project.

[Meowmaritus]

There was some more ebay listings recently if you didn't see.

OmniKey Ultra https://www.ebay.com/itm/125606693032
Avant Prime https://www.ebay.com/itm/325418314501

[engr]

There was some more ebay listings recently if you didn't see.

Thanks, I have seen these. Unfortunately, this Ultra is not programmable, and I already have an Avant Prime (which has pretty bad pad-printed keycaps).

[engr]

The Focus BAE came two ways. Early ones, with no Winkeys, with or without the extra keys on the bottom row, came with a single wire and guide post just like Northgate. Late ones with Winkeys had the two stab wires.

It looks like even some Win-keyless ones had the dual wire-stabilized BAE. The ones you had, with guide post stabilizers, must have been from the very earliest ones, which were somewhat close to FK-555.

Which means that if I want to get a double-shot BAE for my Avant Prime, I will have to find BAE from an Omnikey, or from a very early 2001, which is not going to be easy.

[Meowmaritus]

The Focus BAE came two ways. Early ones, with no Winkeys, with or without the extra keys on the bottom row, came with a single wire and guide post just like Northgate. Late ones with Winkeys had the two stab wires.

It looks like even some Win-keyless ones had the dual wire-stabilized BAE. The ones you had, with guide post stabilizers, must have been from the very earliest ones, which were somewhat close to FK-555.

Which means that if I want to get a double-shot BAE for my Avant Prime, I will have to find BAE from an Omnikey, or from a very early 2001, which is not going to be easy.

I've had 3 different winkeyless pine white alps fk2001 and all had dual wire stabs on enter

[Polecat]

It looks like even some Win-keyless ones had the dual wire-stabilized BAE. The ones you had, with guide post stabilizers, must have been from the very earliest ones, which were somewhat close to FK-555.

Which means that if I want to get a double-shot BAE for my Avant Prime, I will have to find BAE from an Omnikey, or from a very early 2001, which is not going to be easy.

The Enter key is something I can try to document in my database. I didn't realize the change to two stabilizer wires was that early. I have two FK-2001 keyboards with the guide post; one with blue Alps, one with unbranded white Alps. Those are from mid-1989. The next Focus in my pile, chronologically, is an FK-3001 from 1991, and that one indeed has the two wires. I had never opened that one up before now. So the change was sometime between 1989 and 1991. I bought the white Alps 2001 on ebay relatively recently, and in lovely condition, very cheap.

viewtopic.php?p=475322#p475322

On my Avant Stellar, and the blue Alps FK-2001, whose insides now live inside my black Focus case, I swapped to an ANSI Enter and backslash, a very easy (and reversible) modification. That takes care of the Enter key problem, and gives you an extra key (the original backslash, or the new one) that can be reassigned to something else.

viewtopic.php?p=388627#p388627

viewtopic.php?p=447283#p447283

edit: I forgot to mention that the FK-555, at least some of them, had printed caps. I've never seen a (U.S.) FK-2001 without doubleshot caps, except for the very late winkey versions, which were probably lasered.

[engr]

On my Avant Stellar, and the blue Alps FK-2001, whose insides now live inside my black Focus case, I swapped to an ANSI Enter and backslash, a very easy (and reversible) modification. That takes care of the Enter key problem, and gives you an extra key (the original backslash, or the new one) that can be reassigned to something else.

I don't know if I would call it a fully reversible mod, since it requires drilling into PCB and sanding off solder mask.
But if I managed to find a black Avant Stellar, I would consider doing something like this, since a black double-shot BAE with Northgate guidepost does not exist. But for white/beige boards my first choice is to find a double-shot BAE from a Northgate or a very early Focus. Either that or to try gluing a guidepost from a spacebar to a regular Focus BAE.

[Polecat]

I don't know if I would call it a fully reversible mod, since it requires drilling into PCB and sanding off solder mask.
But if I managed to find a black Avant Stellar, I would consider doing something like this, since a black double-shot BAE with Northgate guidepost does not exist. But for white/beige boards my first choice is to find a double-shot BAE from a Northgate or a very early Focus. Either that or to try gluing a guidepost from a spacebar to a regular Focus BAE.

Fair enough. I didn't say "fully" reversible, but functionally there's nothing about it that can't be easily undone. There is possibly a black double shot BAE with a guidepost, *if* the black Datacomps came in a doubleshot version. The beige ones of the same model definitely did. I have three or four of the later black Datacomps, and all but one had a (printed) BAE with a guide post. I haven't confirmed that those will work on a Northgate, but I'd be happy to do so. The odd one, presumably the newer version, had the two stab wires, which I used on the gray winkeys Focus.

edit: I just pulled the BAE cap (printed, with guide stem) from a black Datacomp, and it's physically compatible with the Focus/Northgate guide stem BAE. I have one of those loose, so apparently I had a Focus donor board at some point. So...*if* there was a black Datacomp with double shot caps its BAE *should* work on a Focus or Northgate, or specifically on a black Avant Stellar. Note that some early black Focus keyboards had double shot caps, so there's another possible source. I also have a set of printed caps from an industrial gray Costar board, and the BAE from that set is also compatible. I don't know if Costar made a black version, or a double shot version, but that's another possibility. None of these are exactly common, but they may well exist. I've been collecting Alps stuff for over 30 years now, and I'm still finding surprises.

edit2: Another DS BAE with guide post donor from my pile is a (beige) DFK-777. Pretty good match for Focus/Northgate.

[engr]

Added ProXellent Alps-compatible boards to the title. While they don't have Windows buttons, it's a solid chassis with hardware-level programmability.

[Polecat]

Added ProXellent Alps-compatible boards to the title. While they don't have Windows buttons, it's a solid chassis with hardware-level programmability.

Here's an old ebay photo of an Alps ProXellent. The <> and * in the bottom row should work as Windows keys once reassigned, as long as you can come up with keyboard shortcuts for those keys to be reassigned to (Ctrl-Esc and ??).

[engr]

The <> and * in the bottom row should work as Windows keys once reassigned, as long as you can come up with keyboard shortcuts for those keys to be reassigned to (Ctrl-Esc and ??).

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a way of making them work like Windows keys. You can make these buttons open Windows menu with Ctrl+Esc, but all the shortcuts involving Windows key, like Win+E to open File Explorer, won't work.

[Polecat]

You can do most things with a macro even with no Windows keys. For your example, to get to explorer type Ctrl-Esc, type cmd, then type explorer. Easy to do that as a keyboard-based macro. I have only one or two keyboards with Windows keys, which I never use. Can't miss what I never had.

[engr]

You can do most things with a macro even with no Windows keys. For your example, to get to explorer type Ctrl-Esc, type cmd, then type explorer. Easy to do that as a keyboard-based macro. I have only one or two keyboards with Windows keys, which I never use. Can't miss what I never had.

I think I tried something like that on my Ortek and it didn't work very well. I suspect it needs a slight delay between commands to let Windows respond properly.

[Polecat]

You can do most things with a macro even with no Windows keys. For your example, to get to explorer type Ctrl-Esc, type cmd, then type explorer. Easy to do that as a keyboard-based macro. I have only one or two keyboards with Windows keys, which I never use. Can't miss what I never had.

I think I tried something like that on my Ortek and it didn't work very well. I suspect it needs a slight delay between commands to let Windows respond properly.

The DOS Pause command still works in the command window (and prompts for an Enter) so you can make delays with one or more Pause, Enter combinations. It's been decades now, but I still think in DOS terms. Yes, I'm old.

edit: even easier, just type Ctrl-Esc then 'run explorer'. I'm enjoying these command line flashbacks. Maybe time to throw away my mouse?