F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Bionicman]

I believe it may have something to do with commenting out the line of code as noted in the manual:

#define HAPTIC_EXCLUSION_KEYS 1

Commented out:

//#define HAPTIC_EXCLUSION_KEYS 1

I have been following the manual's instructions, on section "Firmware - Via/Vial, QMK, xwhatsit", under "For those flashing firmware for first time on a computer", below Step 31 "New procedure from scratch Ubuntu install".
I set up a VirtualBox UbuntuLTS instance, updated the system and installed qmk, cloned the qmk_firmware_andrei repo, and copied qmk_firmware_andrei/qmk_firmware/keyboards/xwhatsit/ folder to qmk_firmware/keyboards/ folder.
I cannot find a haptic.c file within the qmk_firmware/keyboards/xwhatsit/ folder and subdirectories, and qmk_firmware/keyboards/xwhatsit/brand_new_model_f/f77/wcass/ folder.
Instead I found a haptic.c file in qmk_firmware_andrei/qmk_firmware/drivers/haptic/, screenshot attached.
Should I be copying over that directory and its contents to qmk_firmware/drivers/haptic? The latter does not have haptic.c and haptic.h files, only the other 4 .c and .h files.

[Nootz]

You’re just looking to flash a new hex file, right?

https://github.com/qmk/qmk_toolbox

Yes, but I'm doing it for the first time so I need to use Flip to do the first time setup stuff right? Or is that section of the guide deprecated?

I figured out what the problem was - I had installed 64-bit Java rather than 32-bit. After I uninstalled the 64-bit and installed the 32-bit version, it worked first time and I could follow the video no problems at all
Would probably be worth adding this step to the manual/documentation as I found this fix on some random youtube video comment about Atmel Flip.

[Ellipse]

Here are two F77 classic case style keyboards from the same person, with a customized German layout including the Industrial SSK 12 key set, German front print F1-F12, and keys from Unicomp: 1.5 Fn centered, Windows, and yellow WASD. Posting with permission.

customized German (2).jpg (1.49 MiB) Viewed 23037 times

customized German (1).jpg (1.76 MiB) Viewed 23037 times

[herald]

This is probably very late, but I’m a fan of vintage layouts that were alternatives to the now standard IBM layout and like to take inspiration from Unix and Lisp layouts. Is there any chance of producing a "rub out" key, which was present on Symbolics keyboards as a 1.75U key to the left of "A", replacing caps lock? Ideally it would have the text "Rub Out" perhaps with the backspace arrow, or alternatively only the arrow. Unfortunately none of the extra keycaps have this in 1.75U size.

[Meowmaritus]

I am hoping to make a short introductory video to the Model F keyboards project for the project web site.
 

You're a few years late for that and about to end production.

[Ellipse]

herald yep I can put a current key legend on another size key but this would involve a tooling charge - please email me for details.

[snoopy]

For how long will these boards be made? Will it end at a specific number or date?

[wobbled]

For how long will these boards be made? Will it end at a specific number or date?

For as long as the $$$ rolls in my guy

[Ellipse]

As an update we are still proceeding with the pad printed keys. I noted in recent weeks that I ordered the old-style pad printing machine. A factory is custom building this machine to order, as a pad printing machine large enough to print an entire key set at one time has been difficult to find. They are also building all of the custom tooling and jigs to use with the machine.

snoopy as noted before the project has moved from being "made to order" to having the variations and extras all in stock. The final round container shipment arrived last month and it will be "while supplies last" for those items. The beam spring project round 1 is expected to open to orders in the next week or so since everything is in stock.

[Ellipse]

We have a new draft key set submitted today - Quebec CSA!

Please email or message me if interested in ordering this set. I will be ordering several copies from the factory.

If you have any feedback, please let me know in the next few days so I can update the file if needed before it goes to the factory.

Here are some notes that I was sent:
- This layout works only on Windows and Linux, Apple has developed its own CSA keyboard, called Canadian French ― CSA but it’s not exactly the same keyboard layout. Apple respect only partially this standard (the ligature œ is located with q for example). If you are interested I can send you another template using this layout. For now, I am interested in the Windows/Linux version.

- 4¤ and É are drawn twice because the Linux version is different and doesn’t use the € sign.

- I am interested in the F77 industrial grey with the Numpad #3 (with an arrow inside a diamond for the Enter key used in the Numpad).

- I am also a VIM user and I would like if possible a second Caps Lock key with the proper Esc pictogram, not ESC or Esc but an arrow inside a circle, it’s there in my template.

Ideas (relocate ESC key):
1) Home Row (where caps lock is, then relocate caps lock between
ctrl and alt)
2) Between ctrl and alt

Other points :

In the newest version, the ligature Πmust be printed (E key).

Also, the pictograms must be used instead of english or french labels,
same thing over the numpad.

The triangle replace the decimal separator (numpad).

- Return and Enter are pretty similar but are not exactly the same.

Enter (arrow inside a diamond) go with the numpad). Return (just the arrow pointing left) to with the alphanumeric keys.

- The pictogram "centering" with the 5 key (numpad) is now obsolete and can be skipped.

Quebec CSA.png (153.4 KiB) Viewed 22076 times

[herald]

- I am also a VIM user and I would like if possible a second Caps Lock key with the proper Esc pictogram, not ESC or Esc but an arrow inside a circle, it’s there in my template.

Ideas (relocate ESC key):
1) Home Row (where caps lock is, then relocate caps lock between
ctrl and alt)
2) Between ctrl and alt

If you want to be true to the roots of vi, you would place Esc at the Tab position where it was originally developed! The question then is where to relocate the Tab key. Personally I ended up having it above Enter in ANSI layout. If you have have an ISO Enter, you could bind it to Fn+Enter. Or just leave it at its original position invoked by holding Fn.

[herald]

Instead I found a haptic.c file in qmk_firmware_andrei/qmk_firmware/drivers/haptic/, screenshot attached.
Should I be copying over that directory and its contents to qmk_firmware/drivers/haptic? The latter does not have haptic.c and haptic.h files, only the other 4 .c and .h files.

I edited `qmk_firmware/quantum/haptic.c`. Although I got build errors, so too much has likely changed for this patch to still work. If only we knew which version/commit this patch was intended for - can be found out by comparing commit timestamps with the forum post here. I did that and you can run `git checkout 0e5d67145a649480fd49a72712997feb6303a471` in the qmk_firmware directory after running `qmk setup` to rollback the code.

I followed the same instructions with this checkout and it worked! Finally thanks to https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_key_overrides I have my lisp parens keys.

If you do not need newer QMK features, it would be safer and easier to just use QMK 0.0.30 as adviced here, under *Building the firmware locally on the command line*: https://docs.google.com/document/d/17Fq ... Og80w/edit

Edit: I see you just wanted to get your solenoid working for modifiers. I'd say try following the instructions again using the checkout.

[Bionicman]

I edited `qmk_firmware/quantum/haptic.c`. Although I got build errors, so too much has likely changed for this patch to still work. If only we knew which version/commit this patch was intended for - can be found out by comparing commit timestamps with the forum post here. I did that and you can run `git checkout 0e5d67145a649480fd49a72712997feb6303a471` in the qmk_firmware directory after running `qmk setup` to rollback the code.

I followed the same instructions with this checkout and it worked! Finally thanks to https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_key_overrides I have my lisp parens keys.

If you do not need newer QMK features, it would be safer and easier to just use QMK 0.0.30 as adviced here, under *Building the firmware locally on the command line*: https://docs.google.com/document/d/17Fq ... Og80w/edit

Edit: I see you just wanted to get your solenoid working for modifiers. I'd say try following the instructions again using the checkout.

Thank you for the info and timestamp.
I was able to compile the F77 wcass hex file on the Ubuntu VM, then used 2021 Pandrew QMK Utility to erase EEPROM and Enter Bootloader, and then used Atmos Flip to flash the hex file.
But the solenoid does not work for my modifier keys (on two attempts), so I'd like to retrace my steps for mistakes:
- I ran 'git checkout 0e5d67145a649480fd49a72712997feb6303a471' after the 'qmk setup' step in the manual
- Made 'qmk_firmware_andrei' directory, git cloned purdea.ro repository in new directory, then copied 'qmk_firmware_andrei/qmk_firmware/keyboards/xwhatsit/' to 'qmk_firmware/keyboards'
- Edited 'qmk_firmware/keyboards/xwhatsit/brand_new_model_f/f77/wcass/config.h' to comment out '#define DESCRIPTION' and comment out '#ifndef ...' to '#endif'
- Edited 'qmk_firmware/keyboards/xwhatsit/brand_new_model_f/f77/wcass/rules.mk' to add 'NKRO_ENABLE = yes', 'LTO_ENABLE = yes', 'HAPTIC_ENABLE = yes', 'HAPTIC_DRIVER = SOLENOID', remove original 'HAPTIC_ENABLE += SOLENOID'
- Left 'qmk_firmware/quantum/haptic.c' alone, but solenoid did not work for modifier keys, so I tried adding '#define HAPTIC_EXCLUSION_KEYS 0' second time around but still did not work for modifier keys
- Copied 'qmk_firmware_andrei/qmk_firmware/tmk_core' to 'qmk_firmware' and merge but not overwrite existing files
- Downloaded my QMK Customization "default.json" file from Windows to Ubuntu VM, in my home folder (I used home folder instead of above home, because need sudo permission)
- Set keyboard to F77 wcass with 'qmk config user.keyboard=xwhatsit/brand_new_model_f/f77/wcass'
- Ran 'qmk compile ".\default.json"' to get .hex file, moved .hex file back to Windows, then used 2021 Pandrew QMK Utility and Atmos Flip, replugged USB

[AlexB555]

Just a few things about this new layout (Quebec CSA) :

This layout was developed by a civil servant working for the government of Quebec in the late 80s (Alain Labonté). Unfortunately, he died recently, last summer. The goal was to modernize the traditional Canadian French layout made by IBM by limiting as much as possible the use of dead keys in french. The first version was standardized by the CSA Group in 1988, named Canadian French (Legacy) today if you use Windows http://kbdlayout.info/KBDFC/. In 1992, a second version was introduced (CAN / CSA Z243.200-92) http://kbdlayout.info/KBDCAN/ . This version is based widely on the previous version but adds a second group (Group 2), allowing you to type more characters (up to 5 characters per key). These characters can be activated if you press Ctrl-Right or Ctrl-Right-Shift. This layout is known as "Canadian multilingual standard (CMS)" on Windows. If you are Canadian you probably know this layout because it’s installed by default. Even if you remove this layout it’s reinstalled every time you accept a major update on Windows. This keyboard is QWERTY and was made primarily for typing in English and French but it can also type many other languages (up to 14 in this template sent previously by Ellipse). The government of Quebec in their call for tender specifies a higher standard called "Standard du gouvernement du Québec sur les ressources informationnelles" (SGQRI-001) (relatively well respected in this template!). This standard must include at least the most used characters in french, including «, », æ, œ and the characters used in Spanish (¡, ¿ ~, etc.). The label must also be written in french or preferably with these pictograms standardized. These pictograms are preferred because they are neutral. The last thing, the legends must be visible and last at least 3 years https://www.tresor.gouv.qc.ca/fileadmin ... qri001.pdf.

Another interesting thing, this layout is also standardized without the Ù. You can remap this key into a second shift key (1u) or another function key. You can also convert an ANSI keyboard with this layout (with a bigger À and the proper horizontal Return / Left-Shift), mostly used and available in North America http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_f1jwplw5jZ8/S ... C00084.JPG. The Ù can be replaced by a dead key (AltGr + ^ + u/U) and this character is used only in one word in french (où – where). It was made to be easy to use for English speakers, used by the US English layout.

If you want to use an old model F from the early 80s without the Ctrl-Right you must use the Canadian French (Legacy) layout (CSA 1988) which is pretty close but I have never seen this layout printed in my life :p. The Apple version (Canadian French ― CSA) https://forums.ubports.com/assets/uploa ... board.jpeg is somewhere between both. In this layout, the characters in your Group 1 respect the standard from 1992 but you don’t have a proper Group 2 like the old CSA 1988. I thought about this issue and the answer could be something like on Linux. On Linux if you use Gnome and you want to use this layout (CSA 1992), you must install 2 layouts: Canadian multilingual standard Part 1 and Canadian multilingual standard Part 2, then remap your ctrl-right and link both together. If someone creates a Canadian French ― CSA Part 2 on Apple activated from command or ctrl-right then you have something fully compatible with this template. Unfortunately, I had an Apple back in the early 2010s but my motherboard is broken and I can't test this idea. Even if I repair this computer the latest macOS is not supported.

[AlexB555]

- I am also a VIM user and I would like if possible a second Caps Lock key with the proper Esc pictogram, not ESC or Esc but an arrow inside a circle, it’s there in my template.

Ideas (relocate ESC key):
1) Home Row (where caps lock is, then relocate caps lock between
ctrl and alt)
2) Between ctrl and alt

If you want to be true to the roots of vi, you would place Esc at the Tab position where it was originally developed! The question then is where to relocate the Tab key. Personally I ended up having it above Enter in ANSI layout. If you have have an ISO Enter, you could bind it to Fn+Enter. Or just leave it at its original position invoked by holding Fn.

Yeah, ideally, it should be ESC (tab), ctrl (caps lock), tab (ctrl), and caps lock (super), and remove your super key or your caps lock but you have many keys to change in this case. The proper vi keyboard was close to this. The easiest way if you have an F77 or an F62 is to relocate your escape between your ctrl and your alt key and scrap your super key. You can also relocate your |/\ instead but you don't respect the layout correctly.

Personally, I wrote my master thesis on vim/latex/R and I really loved using the ESC key on the home row. Even if you are an emacs user, you can use the evil mode which simulates vim inside emacs. Vim has better key binds and is softer for your fingers.

[herald]

Thank you for the info and timestamp.
I was able to compile the F77 wcass hex file on the Ubuntu VM, then used 2021 Pandrew QMK Utility to erase EEPROM and Enter Bootloader, and then used Atmos Flip to flash the hex file.
But the solenoid does not work for my modifier keys (on two attempts), so I'd like to retrace my steps for mistakes:
- I ran 'git checkout 0e5d67145a649480fd49a72712997feb6303a471' after the 'qmk setup' step in the manual
- Made 'qmk_firmware_andrei' directory, git cloned purdea.ro repository in new directory, then copied 'qmk_firmware_andrei/qmk_firmware/keyboards/xwhatsit/' to 'qmk_firmware/keyboards'
- Edited 'qmk_firmware/keyboards/xwhatsit/brand_new_model_f/f77/wcass/config.h' to comment out '#define DESCRIPTION' and comment out '#ifndef ...' to '#endif'
- Edited 'qmk_firmware/keyboards/xwhatsit/brand_new_model_f/f77/wcass/rules.mk' to add 'NKRO_ENABLE = yes', 'LTO_ENABLE = yes', 'HAPTIC_ENABLE = yes', 'HAPTIC_DRIVER = SOLENOID', remove original 'HAPTIC_ENABLE += SOLENOID'
- Left 'qmk_firmware/quantum/haptic.c' alone, but solenoid did not work for modifier keys, so I tried adding '#define HAPTIC_EXCLUSION_KEYS 0' second time around but still did not work for modifier keys
- Copied 'qmk_firmware_andrei/qmk_firmware/tmk_core' to 'qmk_firmware' and merge but not overwrite existing files
- Downloaded my QMK Customization "default.json" file from Windows to Ubuntu VM, in my home folder (I used home folder instead of above home, because need sudo permission)
- Set keyboard to F77 wcass with 'qmk config user.keyboard=xwhatsit/brand_new_model_f/f77/wcass'
- Ran 'qmk compile ".\default.json"' to get .hex file, moved .hex file back to Windows, then used 2021 Pandrew QMK Utility and Atmos Flip, replugged USB

So I did some searching through the thread and it seems that haptic.c used to be in drivers/haptic/ which was moved to quantum/ in later QMK versions, where defining HAPTIC_EXCLUSION_KEYS might have no effect. I found this pull request (https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/12386) which adds documentation (https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blo ... -exclusion) mentioning "`#define NO_HAPTIC_MOD` in config.h". If you open `keyboards/xwhatsit/brand_new_model_f/f77/wcass/config.h` you will see `#define NO_HAPTIC_MOD` on line 291. Commenting this out should result in the solenoid firing for mods.

To summarise: `#define HAPTIC_EXCLUSION_KEYS` in haptic.c has no effect any longer. This is now the default in config.h, called `#define NO_HAPTIC_MOD`, the removal of which should enable the solenoid for mods.

[Ellipse]

Here's a nice video someone sent me showing off the pen holder and solenoid on the F77:

[klaas]

I recently got my model F77 but I can't seem to get it to work reliably.

In particular, a number of keys register only when the key is released (as opposed to when it is pressed).
This occurs most reliably when the keys are pressed hard (bottoming out). It is noticeable as a slight (but extremely annoying) delay when typing normally. To know for sure I simply press-and-hold. In that case I don't see anything appearing until release.

I have used the installation procedure as per the manual (vertical position, spacebar up) and I've also spent more than 5 minutes of repeatedly pressing the offending keys. The keys do not sound or feel different than the other (working) keys.

The manual may contain more hints towards a solution, but I found the wall of text a bit overwhelming (and at time contradictory) as well as full of warnings, hence my call for help on this forum.

The keys that don't work reliably for me are F J 9 HOME and BACKSPACE.

[klaas]

I recently got my model F77 but I can't seem to get it to work reliably.

I think this may be a major hint as to why:



Now... how do I get those values for the offending keys up... or alternatively, get QMK to register the lower values as keypresses?

For clarification: the "fully red" boxes are not the problem (those are simply uninstalled keys). The problem are the ~140 values.

[Ellipse]

klaas please follow the Quality Control Secrets video in the manual for adjusting the springs.

Rico's new RP2040-based controller samples arrived today!

2022-11-30_16-49-58.jpg (1.66 MiB) Viewed 19670 times

[sedevidi]

Rico's new RP2040-based controller samples arrived today!

Nice rounded PCB traces!

Could you elaborate a bit on the current status of this promising project, please?

[Rico]

Hello sedevidi

Could you elaborate a bit on the current status of this promising project, please?

Please let me give a quick status of this project.

This is the first revision of Leyden Jar PCB, a RP2040 based controller aimed to work with Brand New F77/F62 boards and in the future Brand New Beamspring keyboards as well.

Early QMK firmware is VIA/VIAL compatible with solenoid support.

It already works nicely on my own F77 board, now need to see if it works well on other people keyboards and on other board variants (F62 and Beamspring).
If PCB is proven to work well the project will be open sourced and made available to the community

[Muirium]

So curly wurly! Want these for all my projects now.

[Bionicman]

So I did some searching through the thread and it seems that haptic.c used to be in drivers/haptic/ which was moved to quantum/ in later QMK versions, where defining HAPTIC_EXCLUSION_KEYS might have no effect. I found this pull request (https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/12386) which adds documentation (https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blo ... -exclusion) mentioning "`#define NO_HAPTIC_MOD` in config.h". If you open `keyboards/xwhatsit/brand_new_model_f/f77/wcass/config.h` you will see `#define NO_HAPTIC_MOD` on line 291. Commenting this out should result in the solenoid firing for mods.

To summarise: `#define HAPTIC_EXCLUSION_KEYS` in haptic.c has no effect any longer. This is now the default in config.h, called `#define NO_HAPTIC_MOD`, the removal of which should enable the solenoid for mods.

I did exactly this and I got my desired result of getting the solenoid to work for every single key in the keyboard!
I cannot thank you enough for this, because now I have my dream keyboard to perfection.

I think it would be great if the admin of Model F Labs could update instructions and add the new information found, in case any one ever wants to activate pre-installed solenoid for all keys.

[herald]

I'm glad to hear it worked!

Ellipse: Running `git checkout 0e5d67145a649480fd49a72712997feb6303a471` in the freshly created qmk_firmware folder is essential as the patch doesn't work with current QMK. Let me know if anything is unclear. I'd be happy to help updating the instructions.

[Ellipse]

I am sharing (with permission) a kind email I received recently about the project. It serves as a great introduction to move newcomers into the world of mechanical keyboards, and specifically, the Model F. Some folks are far better at summarizing the appeal of the Model F than I am!

"I just wanted to write you an email to show how much I appreciate all the effort you put into the Model F reproduction project. I think it's an amazing achievement, and I worry that this fact might get forgotten among the few complaints or negative feedback I've seen on the internet, which you've already done your best to address.

There is really no keyboard like the IBM 4704 you decided to bring back. Regardless of the noise pointing to the lack of F-keys and additional navcluster/numpad to fully accommodate those refusing to learn QMK and adapt to anything non-standard, I don't think you could have chosen a better candidate. The 4kg zinc case feels and looks like no other keyboard, with its imposing presence and wide bezels reminiscent of a 60s space age movie prop, while being the perfect housing for capacitive buckling springs. The feel of these switches are amazing, and it provides a highly engaging typing experience that I would compare to the driving experience of a classic Ferrari Testarossa - manual and heavy, requiring the full involvement of its user, but rewarding with exquisite tactility and sound.

I own lots of keyboard, most of them deviating greatly from the standard, instead being tailored to optimise ergonomics and productivity. Yet I still find myself placing the 4704 onto my desk, simply to enjoy the act of typing, as it offers an experience unlike anything else, making the activity feel substantial and turning typing into a goal in and of itself.

Most keyboard enthusiasts nowadays, particularly those that spend lots of time and money on the hobby ordering and building custom keyboard parts, seek very different goals in the form of highly customisable keyboards with colourful keycaps with amusing legends, compact cases with artifical weight through attached blocks of brass, gasket-mount with silenced (through innumerable hours of modding and lubrication) MX-clone linear switches to achieve a very specific muted "thock". To these people the Model F and similar keyboards are a curiousity and unsuitable for use - perhaps because they are too different from what they are used to. Unfortunately, markets gravitate towards demand, and therefore there are extremely few exceptions.

In comparison to these keyboards, the 4704 is a bargain at $350, considering a custom keyboard easily reaches double that while offering miniscule differences from a premium off-the-shelf keyboard for $200.

It saddens me that another keyboard on the same level as the 4704 reproduction, while still being perfectly usable for modern computing, may never exist. I acknowledge there may be no other keyboard that could fit this role better, but maybe there exists one that could do this differently, while still being at the same level? If anybody is familiar with unique typing experiences throughout keyboard history, that would be Chyrosran22 - I wonder which other keyboards he would see worthy for a revival. Likewise I'm eager to see what comes out of the beamspring reproduction project. I sincerely hope you will consider reviving a classic case, as if there's one thing the 4704 has taught me, it's that the case means as much as the switches. Finally, there's that crazy guy manufacturing Symbolics 365407 Alps clones in his own house, claiming he wants to one day do it with beam/buckling springs, although his reluctance to adopt Chinese mass production means they will continue to have very limited reach.

I don't know how you feel about unsolicited feedback, or if you'll even find this email, but I hope it will serve as a reminder amongst the noisy reality of manufacturing a consumer product, that you have created something very grandiose and generously made it available to anyone with interest for a reasonable price. You did so without compromise and by dedicating yourself fully to it over a very long timeframe. Nobody else would have, or even could have done this, and a shame it would be if that were our reality. Thank you."

[BuGless]

"it provides a highly engaging typing experience that I would compare to the driving experience of a classic Ferrari Testarossa - manual and heavy, requiring the full involvement of its user, but rewarding with exquisite tactility and sound."

Eloquently spoken!

[Muirium]

The Ferrari throws you around by the seat of your pants, mind, while the Model F can only do you harm in a fall. But yeah, the mechanical spirit is something similar.

[dcopellino]

Wow, what an endorsement. Whoever wrote these words would deserve a free lifelong supply. In other words I'd say.... when the shape matches the content.

[Ellipse]

Wow - how did this thread receive 6,000 views in the past week or so? Everyone please do let me know if they see the project posted somewhere so I can keep track of these things.

Any comments with the Quebec CSA layout shown earlier? It has been submitted to the factory for the first run of a few sets.

I have been updating my offline draft manual with the recent comments and hope to post it soon to the project web site.