Does anyone else feel the lack of a fullsize option ruins the Model F repro?

[daemonspudguy]

I don't like TKLs, I like fullsize keyboards. The Model F repro for me is ruined by the lack of fullsize model.

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

Second this, Im suprised there is no F107 repro made yet. Want to talk about selling hot cakes that is one that certainly will!

[kmnov2017]

I agree, that's why I've been on the lookout for an F107 for the past 3 years.

The F107 should certainly have been made as part the repro project.

[daemonspudguy]

The Beam Spring keyboard looks really nice but it's 500 dollars and I flat out don't have that kind of money.

[JCMax]

The F77 I got from Ellipse is fantastic. But an F107 would have been even more badass!

Honestly though, I think wording it as "ruins" the project might be a bit strong for me. But that's because I'm cool with compact layouts like HHKB. So, I can still enjoy the F77. But I do agree that full-size/battle-ship layouts would be better by 100x. If the F107 was available I would be typing on it instead of my F77.

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

I agree, that's why I've been on the lookout for an F107 for the past 3 years.

The F107 should certainly have been made as part the repro project.

Same, but I have kind of given up on finding one. Now Im just looking for a Pingmaster as second best. But I am still praying for the day someone does a repro of the F107!

[Tail_typist]

As an F77 repro owner, the things that bug after a year are the lack of a fourth column on the number pad and the lack of lights for the num and caps lock. I use my thumb on the bottom left key of the numpad to activate a layer that transforms the asterisks and 9 keys into minus and plus. I'm still getting used to that. Using the arrows, page up / page down, home and end keys built into the numpad is perfect though. I'll never be happy again with those keys gobbling up columns in my layout. And I have a hard time giving up full sized utility. My last keyboard was a 96 key. Compact layouts have huge ergonomic benefits, but every time I have to choose, I'm always airing on the side of a big layout.

[Chyros]

Ruins, no. But it's not as good as it could've been IMO. I definitely would've strongly preferred an F107, and would've used it a lot more than I do my F77 now.

[webwit]

Don't listen to these accountants, fecking numpad fetishists.

[Chyros]

Not to worry though, the new beamer's gonna have some GOOD size options .

[Muirium]

Like an actual HHKB-layout, without the extra Kishsaver mods? Epic.

You get somewhere nice on the case for a logo that way. I mean, there's hardly going to be any room round back. /

[kmnov2017]

Not to worry though, the new beamer's gonna have some GOOD size options .

The latest pics I saw, the thing looks hideous...

[JCMax]

Don't you mean "HIIIIIIIIIDEEEEOUS"!!!

[Chyros]

Not to worry though, the new beamer's gonna have some GOOD size options .

The latest pics I saw, the thing looks hideous...

The first round, sure, but the new round is going to have cases inspired by original beamers!

[zrrion]

those look hideous too so that's not actually all that much better

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

those look hideous too so that's not actually all that much better

Sacriledge!

[Muirium]

Let me join the travesty! They don't look nearly as good as those Symbolics remakes someone else did for a costly group buy project. Those ones have style. These are neither loyal IBM clones nor a tasteful design in their own right. I don't dig them either. And yes I mean both versions. They're not nearly IBMmy enough.

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

Let me join the travesty! They don't look nearly as good as those Symbolics remakes someone else did for a costly group buy project. Those ones have style. These are neither loyal IBM clones nor a tasteful design in their own right. I don't dig them either. And yes I mean both versions. They're not nearly IBMmy enough.

Oh wait do you mean the one with the black and white caps?

I thought we were talking about the original designs for a second and how there was going to be a run of those style cases. If so I am in agreement, I couldn't even tell that the second run was separate from the first aside from the different cap profile. I think a 3276 style case wouldn't be too difficult to emulate and the top stepped section of the case used to slot underneath a monitor could always be removed for production costs.

You could then have different key variants as well as there is already a lot of preexisting 3276 variants, emulating the different key choices available for the run of Model F SKK's:

• 59-Key, alpha and numerical keys only

• 67-Key, 8 key cluster on the left

• 75-Key, left and right 8 key clusters

• 87-Key, left and right 8 key clusters with 12 key cluster on the far right

I think the preexisting design already models itself well to key selection variety with out drastically changing layout.

TL;DR
Don't make Model F's with beamspring switches, make beamsprings with beamspring switches!

[daemonspudguy]

Ruins, no. But it's not as good as it could've been IMO. I definitely would've strongly preferred an F107, and would've used it a lot more than I do my F77 now.

Oh, hi Thomas! Didn't expect you to reply.

[daemonspudguy]

Not to worry though, the new beamer's gonna have some GOOD size options .

The latest pics I saw, the thing looks hideous...

Good to know that my streak of having the incorrect opinions on things has continued. I really like the way the first round of beamspring repos look.

[Muirium]

+1 perseverance.

Don't make Model F's with beamspring switches, make beamsprings with beamspring switches!

Absofuckinglutely. Nail bang on the head. Beamspring is no mere Model F XXXL. “Stretch” is for limos.

[Hak Foo]

If I had to go for a non-fullsize, I'd want a SSK-style layout.

The thing is, the layouts of boards like the 4704 Model Fs make sense within the use-cases and software designs they were paired with. Love or hate it, a modern keyboard is likely being paired with a Windows/MacOS/modern UNIX system, where there's implicit assumptions that the keyboard will generally resemble a Model M-esque 101-108 layout.

I tend to think that a lot of the 60%-and-smaller designs increasingly buck that assumption to the point where it could cause friction points. (i. e. editing keys as chords, if they're available at all). So I figure the safest route is to lean hard into the convention-- go for a big board with a Model M style layout. That means SSK or bigger.

But even "bigger" alone isn't key. I used a M122 with Soarer's Converter for a while as a work board and it was clunky. Layout nuances still come into play. Things like "Esc is expected to be isolated, so it can easily be struck as a panic button." and "Inverted T cursor keys are the current norm" and "Americans are very used to ANSI left-shift and enter"

With regards to the New Beamspring, I think they made a sensible choice-- it's the right layout for the software it's paired for, for most users. OTOH, I don't care for the aesthetic at all.

To me, being able to see the keyswitch mechanisms in side profile is usually the sign of either a DIY project, or low-end gamer board, not a $500 commercial product.

The keycaps are also sort of disappointing. They don't look much different than a $50 set of Akko ASA caps. The typography-- PAU SE-- managed to be worse than typical. I also suspect by the time you're spending USD500 on a keyboard, and especially if it has MX-mount stems, you're probably going to to drop another car payment on custom keycap choices for it, so maybe there should be an economy model without caps.

[joebeazelman]

Mechanical keyboard manufacturers just don't get it. Model F Labs, Unicomp, and Matias fall short of creating what keyboard enthusiasts really want. Even worse, the gold standard setters, Alps, IBM, and Apple haven't given a rat's ass about keyboards for decades now. You'd think they would jump back into the ring after seeing such incredible growth. While it all sounds bleak, there's hope!

The generation Cherry-MXers have surprised me lately. In addition to being too cool for Roblox and Happy meals, they now eschew seizure-inducing LEDs, the Barney-inspired keycap sets, and kid-sized cases. New manufacturers are ready to serve them with tasteful assortments of keycaps and cases, rivaling the best offerings from the vintage era.

There are two that come to mind in particular. Akko makes some gorgeous double-shot PBT spherical keycaps, which were once considered impossible to manufacture. The quality is fantastic and the cost is unbelievably affordable at under $50 for a complete full-size set. Domikey also offers a wide assortment of tastefully colored double-shot ABS keycaps in a range of profiles at lower prices. But it's their keyboard cases that are most appealing. They have a range of tastefully modernized, yet faithful reproductions of classic keyboard cases such as the M0110 and M0110A and the NCR-80. Unfortunately, these cases are only available in China and are reported to be available sometime in the near future. The days of group buys are coming to an end, at least for the MX crowd. As for switches, it will take a while, but already Zeal has made some major breakthroughs with their clickies. It's only a matter of time before others follow their lead.

I hate to say it, but the Cherry MX form factor is the future.

Spoiler:

domikey2.jpeg (87.92 KiB) Viewed 12249 times

domikey1.jpeg (67.2 KiB) Viewed 12249 times

shopping.jpeg (22.53 KiB) Viewed 12249 times

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

If I had to go for a non-fullsize, I'd want a SSK-style layout.

The thing is, the layouts of boards like the 4704 Model Fs make sense within the use-cases and software designs they were paired with. Love or hate it, a modern keyboard is likely being paired with a Windows/MacOS/modern UNIX system, where there's implicit assumptions that the keyboard will generally resemble a Model M-esque 101-108 layout.

I tend to think that a lot of the 60%-and-smaller designs increasingly buck that assumption to the point where it could cause friction points. (i. e. editing keys as chords, if they're available at all). So I figure the safest route is to lean hard into the convention-- go for a big board with a Model M style layout. That means SSK or bigger.

But even "bigger" alone isn't key. I used a M122 with Soarer's Converter for a while as a work board and it was clunky. Layout nuances still come into play. Things like "Esc is expected to be isolated, so it can easily be struck as a panic button." and "Inverted T cursor keys are the current norm" and "Americans are very used to ANSI left-shift and enter"

With regards to the New Beamspring, I think they made a sensible choice-- it's the right layout for the software it's paired for, for most users. OTOH, I don't care for the aesthetic at all.

To me, being able to see the keyswitch mechanisms in side profile is usually the sign of either a DIY project, or low-end gamer board, not a $500 commercial product.

The keycaps are also sort of disappointing. They don't look much different than a $50 set of Akko ASA caps. The typography-- PAU SE-- managed to be worse than typical. I also suspect by the time you're spending USD500 on a keyboard, and especially if it has MX-mount stems, you're probably going to to drop another car payment on custom keycap choices for it, so maybe there should be an economy model without caps.

I agree that traditonal Model M layouts are more accessible, but to me you seem to be arguing from the perspective that these Beamspring keyboards are a commercial consumer product (needing to be designed with modern operating systems and syntax in mind).

But the problem is that this is not product designed for the general public, this is an enthusiast product.

By the time someone is seriously considering dropping half a grand on a computer keyboard I don't think concerns over layout accessibility for a keyboard that you can't even use in your workplace due to the sheer switch noise is relevant. The 3276 is not even that drastic of a departure from the traditional ANSI / ISO layout. They could have changed the weird function row layout on the Model F SSK to something more in line to the Model M, but they didn't. The enthusiast market it was aimed at wanted an Model F SSK, so why shouldn't the Beamspring project be the same?

A solenoid is also a dated design choice much like the original layout. They were only added to allow professional typewriters get used to using a key layout that traditionally didn't have tactile feedback, yet they are keeping that feature. The switch used on a Beamspring is also only half of the equation. One of the big things people are drawn by with the Beamspring is it's large presence and the heavy duty case that houses the whole board. Its what makes the Beamspring so recognizable aside from the switch noise. You don't have to recreate the elaborate metal cage assembly for the switches, but you can recreate the rest of the case without too much difficulty with hard plastics.

If this was for any other project I would totally agree with you, but to me the idea of recreating Beamsprings and only going half way is a loss. But more power to the people who like the re-design I suppose.

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

Mechanical keyboard manufacturers just don't get it. Model F Labs, Unicomp, and Matias fall short of creating what keyboard enthusiasts really want. Even worse, the gold standard setters, Alps, IBM, and Apple haven't given a rat's ass about keyboards for decades now. You'd think they would jump back into the ring after seeing such incredible growth. While it all sounds bleak, there's hope!

The generation Cherry-MXers have surprised me lately. In addition to being too cool for Roblox and Happy meals, they now eschew seizure-inducing LEDs, the Barney-inspired keycap sets, and kid-sized cases. New manufacturers are ready to serve them with tasteful assortments of keycaps and cases, rivaling the best offerings from the vintage era.

There are two that come to mind in particular. Akko makes some gorgeous double-shot PBT spherical keycaps, which were once considered impossible to manufacture. The quality is fantastic and the cost is unbelievably affordable at under $50 for a complete full-size set. Domikey also offers a wide assortment of tastefully colored double-shot ABS keycaps in a range of profiles at lower prices. But it's their keyboard cases that are most appealing. They have a range of tastefully modernized, yet faithful reproductions of classic keyboard cases such as the M0110 and M0110A and the NCR-80. Unfortunately, these cases are only available in China and are reported to be available sometime in the near future. The days of group buys are coming to an end, at least for the MX crowd. As for switches, it will take a while, but already Zeal has made some major breakthroughs with their clickies. It's only a matter of time before others follow their lead.

I hate to say it, but the Cherry MX form factor is the future.

Spoiler:

domikey2.jpeg
domikey1.jpeg
shopping.jpeg

Agreed, as much as I love older keyboard designs and that I would argue the new Beamsprings should stay true to the original, when you have to make a brand new modern keyboard Cherry MX is the only real choice. Aside from Gateron or dirt cheap Chinese clones, MX is as a reliable as they come. You can talk about how great Alps/Matias is all day long but as soon as you bring up lifetime or durability that conversation goes south real quick.

Combine this with the fact that the Cherry MX has already situated itself as the gold standard for mechanical keyboards and that all these new switches coming out use MX mounts, I think its going to take a real revolutionary (as well as cheap) switch design to even make a dent in the market.

[Muirium]

I hope you guys are taking the piss.

Ever tried to buy a beamspring? Or typed on a Model F? These aren’t mainstream nor are they shy of four figure price tags. There is also a high-end.

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

I hope you guys are taking the piss.

Ever tried to buy a beamspring? Or typed on a Model F? These aren’t mainstream nor are they shy of four figure price tags. There is also a high-end.

Wait who is saying that they are mainstream/not 4 figures?

[Muirium]

All the talk of “MX form factor being the future.” If it is, beamspring has no place in the future.

Beamspring just isn’t going to squeeze inside the same enclosure. You either respect that and give it a real body with the confident design it deserves, or you stick another six wheels on and hope it’s still a Ferrari F40 so long as you make the horse logo big enough.

[joebeazelman]

I took a look at the photos of the new Beamspring keyboard. For $500, you're better off wearing your best camouflage and wait patiently behind a bush to ambush a real one. It's USB HID-ious and hideous. The exposed gizzards and guts combined with the ill fitting keycaps on top of cheesy plastic plungers is just unacceptable workmanship at any price. The verbiage keysplaining its choices doesn't help either.

[Hak Foo]

But the problem is that this is not product designed for the general public, this is an enthusiast product.

By the time someone is seriously considering dropping half a grand on a computer keyboard I don't think concerns over layout accessibility for a keyboard that you can't even use in your workplace due to the sheer switch noise is relevant.

I strongly disagree. As you said, it's an enthusiast product, but what is the exact selection of enthusiasts you're appealing to? There are a bunch of different groups within the "I will pay $500 for a keyboard" crowd. Some of them are drawn to beamsprings because of the legends of their feel, not because they're in love with 1970s IBM industrial aesthetics or layout ergonomics.

Even people drawn in by nostalgia may end up not preferring specific layouts. The first keyboards I fell in love with were Focus FK-2001s, but over the years I grew to prefer conventional ANSI over the BAE-and-guess-where-THIS-manufacturer-put-backslash games.

The 3276 is not even that drastic of a departure from the traditional ANSI / ISO layout. They could have changed the weird function row layout on the Model F SSK to something more in line to the Model M, but they didn't. The enthusiast market it was aimed at wanted an Model F SSK, so why shouldn't the Beamspring project be the same?

At a minimum, we can say there's two markets: people who want a *beamspring switch keyboard* and people who want a *newly manufactured 5251/etc. board*.

The first group may be driven away from a board with vintage ergonomics or layout, but the latter group might require it to open their wallets. It's not entirely clear how the market breaks.

I also wonder what the price ceiling is for "new manufactured" keyboards. From experience, you can build a full-custom 1-of-1 keyboard for about USD500, if you stick to simple case designs (i. e. a sandwich case with 3-D printed or cut-acrylic filler layers) At that price, if the initial tooling and scale up are successful, maybe the beamspring modules end up making their way into the designer community and we see other projects that solve the layout and case problems.