Does anyone else feel the lack of a fullsize option ruins the Model F repro?

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

I strongly disagree. As you said, it's an enthusiast product, but what is the exact selection of enthusiasts you're appealing to? There are a bunch of different groups within the "I will pay $500 for a keyboard" crowd. Some of them are drawn to beamsprings because of the legends of their feel, not because they're in love with 1970s IBM industrial aesthetics or layout ergonomics.

I would argue that the precedent presented by the previous SSK line and its success heavily implies that revival projects are most successful when made with enthusiasts wanting a total reproduction in mind. There have been similar remanufacturing projects in the past where companies a lot larger than Model F labs have tried to revive a switch design exclusively for use in modern layouts and tanking or just not being as widely adopted by said enthusiasts.

First thing that comes to mind is the countless hall effect switches and the Matias Alps line. Despite the modern layout as well as hall effects being very smooth and excellent for performance they have lost traction with enthusiasts, such as Wooting or when Cherry tried to officially make a hall effect design but then immediately cancel it due to lack of interest. The only thing keeping interest in hall effects in modern layouts is the open source scene with things such as the void switch. Matias tried to appeal to the enthusiast market with their Alps line being fitted in modern layout keyboards, but you still hear about people buying original Alps boards and not even using the modern Matias switches. The only real selling point the modern Alps has now is getting 200 of the damn things for £50.

Compare this to the introduction of the new Model F SSK and the difference is night and day.

Even people drawn in by nostalgia may end up not preferring specific layouts. The first keyboards I fell in love with were Focus FK-2001s, but over the years I grew to prefer conventional ANSI over the BAE-and-guess-where-THIS-manufacturer-put-backslash games.

That is perfectly fair, as I have said previously on this topic ANSI and ISO is by an large the most convenient. For me I really like ISO, but I don't necessarily let my layout preferences dictate what keyboards I buy as long as the layout is reminiscent of ANSI / ISO key placement, something which I feel in the case of the Beasmpring applies. The Beamspring I am currently restoring is totally different to what I am used to, but I do indeed plan on making it my daily driver despite that fact. I understand this is a purely anecdotal example, but I am just highlighting it in response to your own anecdote.

At a minimum, we can say there's two markets: people who want a *beamspring switch keyboard* and people who want a *newly manufactured 5251/etc. board*.

The first group may be driven away from a board with vintage ergonomics or layout, but the latter group might require it to open their wallets. It's not entirely clear how the market breaks.

That's what I am arguing about, the market appears to favor the latter group wanting newly manufactured boards over just switches.

I also wonder what the price ceiling is for "new manufactured" keyboards. From experience, you can build a full-custom 1-of-1 keyboard for about USD500, if you stick to simple case designs (i. e. a sandwich case with 3-D printed or cut-acrylic filler layers) At that price, if the initial tooling and scale up are successful, maybe the beamspring modules end up making their way into the designer community and we see other projects that solve the layout and case problems.

This is something I can totally get behind.

If both ends of the market can be satisfied with custom case aftermarkets that would be brilliant. Unfortunately I doubt that will happen aside from a select few of hardcore DIY's. As long as the Beamspring switches are reliant on a membrane it will not really be accessible as most enthusiasts don't know or have the resources to recreate a membrane for a custom layout. Even with the far more well established Model M crowd custom layouts are few and far between and are often done cutting up or combining pre-existing membranes.

If I appear to be too firebrand I do apologize, but I just feel that with such small start ups like Model F Lab's new Beamspring keyboard they can only really cater to one of the two kinds of keyboard enthusiast due to manufacturing limitations and it appears they have made that choice. And while their choice is the most accessible one, it seems to ironically be the most alienating for the enthusiast consumer base they have previously cultivated on the notion of bringing back old keyboards.

[Hak Foo]

Matias tried to appeal to the enthusiast market with their Alps line being fitted in modern layout keyboards, but you still hear about people buying original Alps boards and not even using the modern Matias switches. The only real selling point the modern Alps has now is getting 200 of the damn things for £50.

I'm actually riding a board with Matias switches now. I won't lie-- 200 switches for USD60 delivered is a good deal. I'm not sure I like the feel of them better than the last incarnation of the design, using Kailh Box Pale Blue, but it's an entirely competent clicky switch.

The problem is that they're in a difficult place for the "modern enthusiast" market because they're not a drop-in option to the rest of the ecosystem. I can't just buy random AliExpress keycaps (or $200-a-piece artisans) and plop them on this board. I'm limited to a subset of available PCB and plate designs, unless I roll my own. That means a significant set of the market can't even consider them, no matter if they like the switches or not.

Conversely, the "we want true vintage" crowd will always say "well, they're too far away from original 1980s blue complicated pine Alps that were hermetically sealed in a capsule in low earth orbit since their manufacture."

I assume one of the reasons Alps and their clones are so associated with vintage clone boards was that they were cheap in their own time, though. It's clear when you look at some of the (i. e. Chicony) boards with "switch lottery", they were just picking who was the best deal on a given day. I suppose though the cheaper, sketchier brands of MX-shaped switches sort of cut Matias out of that market.

[Bjerrk]

As long as the Beamspring switches are reliant on a membrane it will not really be accessible as most enthusiasts don't know or have the resources to recreate a membrane for a custom layout.

Wait... What??

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

As long as the Beamspring switches are reliant on a membrane it will not really be accessible as most enthusiasts don't know or have the resources to recreate a membrane for a custom layout.

Wait... What??

If I am wrong that's cool but at this moment in time I do not know how you would recreate a Beamspring membrane without specialist machinery. Thus I said its not accessible, possible yes but not accessible

[kmnov2017]

As long as the Beamspring switches are reliant on a membrane it will not really be accessible as most enthusiasts don't know or have the resources to recreate a membrane for a custom layout.

Wait... What??

If I am wrong that's cool but at this moment in time I do not know how you would recreate a Beamspring membrane without specialist machinery. Thus I said its not accessible, possible yes but not accessible

Beamsprings use a capacitive PCB (not membrane). The design files for PCBs for most models of beamsprings are already public. They cost around 5 euros to make. MOQ is usually 5 pieces though.

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

Wait... What??

If I am wrong that's cool but at this moment in time I do not know how you would recreate a Beamspring membrane without specialist machinery. Thus I said its not accessible, possible yes but not accessible

Beamsprings use a capacitive PCB (not membrane). The design files for PCBs for most models of beamsprings are already public. They cost around 5 euros to make. MOQ is usually 5 pieces though.

Ohhhhhhh, scratch that then my bad

[herald]

Returning to the topic title, I'm of the opposite camp: I love alternative layouts, particularly vintage ones. Hence I love how the IBM 4704 looks but do not like the bog standard Model M layout of the beamspring repro. I'm also not fazed by compact layouts. I'll happily use anything down to 34 keys, and find myself most efficient at 44 keys (yes, these keyboards are the embodiment of chyrosran's greatest review nightmare).

To be fair, I can fully understand why most people don't like it. I used to want all my keyboards to have the same exact layout: ANSI Model M. But then I fell into this rabbit hole and found that I can type on anything if I put in time to practice, and then practice switching between different layouts, and it became a non-issue. With advanced layout editors like QMK and sufficient programming knowledge, you can make anything work. If you miss an F-row, how about making holding a number key output the F-key equivalent (i.e. holding '3' for a second outputs F3 while tapping it outputs 3). Then hold a layer key (or tap it to toggle) to switch the F77 3x5 cluster between a numpad or a nav cluster. Now you have a full-size keyboard in disguise!

[Coeus]

I hope you guys are taking the piss.

I think some of the words chosen are a bit strong. It is also the case that whatever you do, you won't please everyone.

Ever tried to buy a beamspring? Or typed on a Model F? These aren’t mainstream nor are they shy of four figure price tags. There is also a high-end.

I stumbled on the new Model F project, decided I would like to have a Model F as my mechanical keyboard. But I also noted the price and that it wasn't available in the enhanced layout, i.e. the one that has become standard on almost all external keyboards, i.e. those not built-in to laptops.

So I did some searching and picked up a second hand PC/XT Model F for £120. My logic was that if I would have to learn a new layout, why pay more? Had the New Model F been available in the enhanced layout I would probably have paid the extra because having the same layout would make moving between keyboards easier.

This is not the only re-make I have seen where someone has been keen to reproduce something from back in the day exactly and that has not been what I want to buy. As such, maybe I am disagreeing with some of the comments above. I am less concerned about whether something looks like it could have been the original but that it captures something important from the original. Based on my experience of the PC/XT Model F, what I find most import is the key action and the quality of the keycaps. Making the case exactly the same as one of the originals is less important, though, as the originals seems to be very robustly made, I wouldn't want something that felt like it was about to fall apart which has been the criticism people have levelled at the Model M, which introduced the enhanced layout and is still available in that layout.

[Bjerrk]

I wouldn't want something that felt like it was about to fall apart which has been the criticism people have levelled at the Model M

I have literally never encountered that criticism.

More often, I read reviews such as this one that describes the original IBM Model Ms as "built like a tank".

A riveted tank, of course ...

I have a Model M that was literally found lying in the street, and it is one of my best keyboards :⁠-⁠D

[kbdfr]

[…] A riveted tank, of course ... […]

[Bjerrk]

[…] A riveted tank, of course ... […]

[Coeus]

I have literally never encountered that criticism.

More often, I read reviews such as this one that describes the original IBM Model Ms as "built like a tank".

I suppose everything is relative. The Model F feels virtually indestructible. Maybe the Model M has changed over the years. The defect I had heard of was the use of plastic rivets, i.e. a plastic post where the end is heated and splayed out, meaning if the splayed end then snaps off a bodge is required. Isn't this the "bolt mod"?

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

I have literally never encountered that criticism.

More often, I read reviews such as this one that describes the original IBM Model Ms as "built like a tank".

I suppose everything is relative. The Model F feels virtually indestructible. Maybe the Model M has changed over the years. The defect I had heard of was the use of plastic rivets, i.e. a plastic post where the end is heated and splayed out, meaning if the splayed end then snaps off a bodge is required. Isn't this the "bolt mod"?

Yep bolt/screw mod. If you drop a Model M you will likely get a plastic rivet to snap off, but a snapped rivet won't effect the keyboard unless a whole bunch are snapped off in a concentrated area. Even then the effects usually result in you having to bottom out keys in order to register a stroke and not nessasarily a dead switch.

So while yes there is a weak point in the design it by no means makes the keyboard fragile in anyway, and even in a worst case scenario a bolt/screw mod just needs a power drill and some screws and your good to go.

[kbdfr]

[…] and even in a worst case scenario a bolt/screw mod just needs a power drill and some screws and your good to go.

Always funny how people say 'it's easy" when referring to something in which they are proficient, assuming it applies to everybody else.
For the vast majority of users, the "worst case" described here just means having to toss out the keyboard, because it is simply not functioning properly.

As an analogy, I don't simply assume everybody else understands straight away what this means:
"vigilate quia nescitis diem neque horam".

Spoiler:

…and it's easier to find out than for a non-nerd to even imagine they can repair a defective keyboard.

[Bjerrk]

As an analogy, I don't simply assume everybody else understands straight away what this means:
"vigilate quia nescitis diem neque horam".

Weakest analogy game everrr

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

[…] and even in a worst case scenario a bolt/screw mod just needs a power drill and some screws and your good to go.

Always funny how people say 'it's easy" when referring to something in which they are proficient, assuming it applies to everybody else.
For the vast majority of users, the "worst case" described here just means having to toss out the keyboard, because it is simply not functioning properly.

As an analogy, I don't simply assume everybody else understands straight away what this means:
"vigilate quia nescitis diem neque horam".

Spoiler:

…and it's easier to find out than for a non-nerd to even imagine they can repair a defective keyboard.

If someone has got hold of a Model M, they are most likely a keyboard enthusiast. If they are a keyboard enthusiast, they are most likely DIY inclined as a large part of the hobby centres around keyboard customisation and optimisation. Which is ESPECIALLY required for old boards.

A bolt/screw mod is just driving a screw into a circular bit of plastic, thats it. You have to try very hard to botch a mod like that. You compare that to switch swapping, case assembling, utilising micro controllers and a half a dozen other mods a keyboard enthusiast will run into at somepoint in the hobby and the bolt/screw mod certainly is a lot more approachable procedure to do.

So yes, it is easy and it is not unrealistic to assume so. If you arguing from a non-enthusiast perspective I would agree, but as far as I am aware we are not arguing from that perspective.

[daemonspudguy]

What monster hath I spawned? Also, I agree with the point about bolt mods not being difficult. You do almost have to try to mess up screwing into plastic. And criticizing people who say that the Model M is built like a tank by mentioning the rivets is really funny when you remember that tanks ARE riveted. You're just making the description more accurate.

[fohat]

You have to try very hard to botch a mod like that.

I have done a couple of dozen of these by now, and although I am fairly proficient I would still not call a "bolt" mod easy. It is tedious and fussy and may well take a couple of goes to get it right. I learned the Sandy55 method many years ago and still consider it de rigueur to peel the layers apart for cleaning and use "bolts" (actually they are 2mm machine screws) with nuts and washers if possible.

"Screw mods" where the assembly stays together and broken rivet heads are replaced individually is indeed exceedingly easy and nearly foolproof.

[BigBlambino]

To answer the thread topic, no. I strongly prefer TKL over other formats. I've never once used a numpad and if I was doing accounting work I'd prefer that it be a separate periferal and not part of my keyboard.

I'll also add that as a collector of vintage boards by far the worst part of the hobby seeing or owning cool boards that I have no way to use. Either the layout is too inaccessible or converting the protocol is too complicated for my abilities and/or far too time consuming to attempt. Personally, I really am happy with the products coming out of model F labs. Vintage reproductions with modern niceties hits the sweet spot for me. I know some people think they are too expensive, but compare it to the custom keyboard scene where group buys for just a case kits can cost upwards of $500 and the design process is basically just make a 3d model and CNC a bunch of aluminum (that's simplifying a lot but the point is that it's clearly much more straightforward than a model F or beam spring repro.)

[HV_Medic]

Does the lack of a full-size option ruin the model F repro?

A little, but I feel that "ruin" is a little too strong of a word for me to apply to the Model F reproductions.

Disappointment would probably be the word that I would choose. The lack of a full sized board was the biggest factor in my holding off on ordering a Model F reproduction. Eventually, I reached out to modelfkeyboards.com and asked if a full size board was in the works, and after I was told no, I wound up buying an F77.

The earliest keyboard that I loved typing on was the Model M, I learned to touch type on that board, and to this day I still hit my highest WPM count using a Model M. I own many Unicomp boards, four I think, I've even bought them for loved ones and given them away as gifts. I love typing on Model M's. Although, I will say that over the last 15 years that I've been a customer of Unicomp, I have noticed that their quality is not what it used to be, I don't know if their tooling is finally wearing out or they're cheaping out on plastics, whatever it is new boards are not the same quality as their older products. But, at a touch more than $100, I still think they are the best bang for the buck in the mechanical keyboard market, and I will never understand why they almost never appear on buying guides for people wanting to get into mechanical keyboards.

For as much as I love my Model M's, I have been slowly drifting away from them and now most of my daily drivers are Cherry MX greens which for me comes fairly close (though not exactly the same) in feel to buckling springs. Most of the drift has been due to aesthetics and lack of choice in keycaps, the Model M just looks completely out of place with modern computers and I really like spherical keys, which are not available for the Model M. But, I still have most of my vintage computers paired with Model M's (and the fact that they natively allow for ps/2 connectivity without a converter is a big plus in this department).

I don't really have much nostalgia for older designs when it comes to most things computers. I am into vintage computing but I was thrilled when the computing industry ditched beige boxes for black and silver. The switch from CRT to LCD was a good thing. And, I have no desire to have an enormous and bulky keyboard on my keyboard, but something with nice aesthetics and the functionality of a keyboard from a time when keyboard manufacturers actually cared about making a decent product and not just bundling in the cheapest thing they could find as an afterthought is most welcome on my desk.

But, I will never truly understand the appeal of keyboards that so many mechanical keyboard enthusiasts fawn over. The tinier the better, the more RGB the better (backlighting is useless for anybody who knows how to type), and inexplicably expensive keycaps in hideous colorways. Don't even get me started on how useless artisan keycaps are. I just don't get any of it. Give me a solidly built full sized keyboard with an understated aesthetic any day of the week. But I digress...

At one time, I thought the Model M was simply the best keyboard ever made, that is until I bought an IBM PC/XT that came with a Model F as a restoration project, and as peculiar as the layout was, the typing experience was like the Model M but even nicer. It was at this time that I stumbled upon the new Model F project and I wanted one, but since I am so used to full-sized boards, I really only wanted one if I could get it in an standard 104 key format. But, I liked the experience of typing on my original Model F that I decided to take the plunge and try out the F77.

Now that I have the F77. I really like it, but I still find myself constantly reaching for the number pad that doesn't exist when it comes time to enter numbers that are not buried in text. The lack of indicator lights doesn't bother me much. But, the lack of a numerical keypad does, and it is for this reason that as much as I like the F77, it will never become a daily driver for me. It is a beautifully constructed work of art and I am thrilled to have it in my collection, but unfortunately, it will not have a permanent spot on my desk.

I am excited about the beamspring project.

[kmnov2017]

I am still not sure why the F107 wasn't part of the build. The new beamspring repro on the other hand have all the key options, including a giant 122 key model.

[JCMax]

I am still not sure why the F107 wasn't part of the build.

Ellipse answered that question on the Model F FAQ. An F107 would have cost A LOT more money than the F62 or F77.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questio ... r-layouts/

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

I really don't see the excuse, it cost thousands for him to do the other cases so why stop at the F107? For christ sake he is remaking the beamspring!

Even if cost was a deciding factor he could have just marketed the price to be a lot more, I bet even at £800 people would have still bought it.

I think he didn't bother because of convenience personally, not cost. He says himself his favorite variant is the F77 and the Kishaver at the end of the day is just that with the numpad sliced off.

[JCMax]

I still would have bought the F107, even if it cost that much.

Maybe somebody could do a repro of just the F107 one day in another group buy.

[kmnov2017]

I am still not sure why the F107 wasn't part of the build.

Ellipse answered that question on the Model F FAQ. An F107 would have cost A LOT more money than the F62 or F77.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questio ... r-layouts/

A mold the size of an F107 should cost in the range of USD 30k - 40k (molds are crazy expensive). If the interest is for a 1000 keyboards that'd be just USD 30/40 a case. But I agree, if the Interest is just for a 100 keyboards then the costs will be prohibitive....

[Chyros]

Honestly I have no idea where all this skepticism is coming from. I think they look great and the testing switch I've been sent has me slavering for more. Plus we finally get some usable form factors! Let alone the build quality; if it's anything like those repro Fs, it's gonna be fucking nuclear.

[headphone_jack]

I have never really been a fan of Ellipse's projects. His car salesman attitude that I've seen in communication with him has really put me off delving more into his boards. I listed my F77 for sale less than a week after getting it just because I was so disappointed with the keyfeel. Hell, my rusted through XTs have felt better. I've seen boards come bent, cracked, chipped, and with all manner of electrical issues, which is absurd considering the "rigorous quality control" that all boards supposedly go through. And this is with a design that is toddler-level simplistic when compared with the complexity of beamspring switches. It's not the keyfeel of the beamspring repros that I'm worried about, but the general durability of the product and the polish that it so desperately lacks. I mean, even his own photos show something that looks like a prototype, when they are supposedly built production units. Not only that, it's a miracle that after more than a year since his reveal the "premium" case still looks incredibly ugly, despite numerous promising community submissions. I'm mildly curious as to how this whole project will pan out after a couple months of durability testing, because from what I know so far it will not end well.

[Shihatsu]

My opinion will not matter much, but I am on the "gimme fullsize" bandwagon.
I own an ultra-compact F77 and would gladly have a fullsize F. Or a beamer. But it has to be compact. O, and ofc ISO, cos ISO = Masterrace. So Beamer round 2 is a HUGE dissapointment to me...

[ArtyomTheMetroHopper]

I have never really been a fan of Ellipse's projects. His car salesman attitude that I've seen in communication with him has really put me off delving more into his boards. I listed my F77 for sale less than a week after getting it just because I was so disappointed with the keyfeel. Hell, my rusted through XTs have felt better. I've seen boards come bent, cracked, chipped, and with all manner of electrical issues, which is absurd considering the "rigorous quality control" that all boards supposedly go through. And this is with a design that is toddler-level simplistic when compared with the complexity of beamspring switches. It's not the keyfeel of the beamspring repros that I'm worried about, but the general durability of the product and the polish that it so desperately lacks. I mean, even his own photos show something that looks like a prototype, when they are supposedly built production units. Not only that, it's a miracle that after more than a year since his reveal the "premium" case still looks incredibly ugly, despite numerous promising community submissions. I'm mildly curious as to how this whole project will pan out after a couple months of durability testing, because from what I know so far it will not end well.

I think there is a fine line with the New Model F project criticism, there is criticsing the design choices and criticsing the person behind the choices. I think its best we steer clear of the latter territory to keep on topic regardless of it being warranted or not, I don't think we want to end up creating call out posts for members on the site as that can lead to a rather ugly precedent. I personally have had a negative experience with Ellipse and I don't approve of his business practices, but there have been plenty of other people who do not share the same experience as I do when dealing with Ellipse.

Chyros is but one example of someone who has had a positive experience in his dealings with Ellipse and I do not doubt that for a second. For every person who sells their new Model F there is someone who still uses one as a daily driver. At the end of the day Ellipse is the reason why the F77 is no longer the rarest non-beamspring IBM keyboard and the fact he went from a hobbyist to running a business is quite inspirational in my opinion.

To re-orientate back onto design criticism, I agree that the new beamspring design is more than just layout concerns, a few people have already pointed how exposed the switches are and how the disclaimer left on the order reservation doc is not exactly reassuring. But as the saying goes: don't count chickens before they hatch. Time will be the true determining factor on whether these concerns are true or unfounded.

[darkcruix]

It is all very subjective, imho. I do own all Model F variants from Ellipse and a ton from IBM at good condition, including the F107. The quality from Ellipse is on par with the Model F from the past. The key feel is very close and the sound changes over time as it always has been. I even replaced 5 flippers with springs on the original F107 with those from Ellipse to see if I easily recognize them. When I am trying hard, then I can make them out, but it isn't super easy to do so.
I frequently switch out my primary keyboard and the F107 is seldomly in the mix - simple reason is the pure weight and bulkiness. If I want a huge keyboard like this, it has to have the F-row(s). And in terms of the F122 - I miss a third key in the Space row.

You see - everything is very subjective. Everyone wants something different. I still believe that the cost for what you get is very valid.

btw: when it comes to best sounding keyboard I own, I have to admit that the Alps keys (Amber) with polyurithane caps are superior.