Recreating the Lisp keyboard (10 years later)

[darkcruix]

They look amazing - especially in real life!

Love your work. I wish more people could see and try out the typing on your keyboard. The look and feel is one thing, but the sound is absurdly good. My wife didn't' t like any of my keyboards and the typing sounds. With the keymacs, she claims that she now understands all of it. Believe me, that is an insane compliment

Art is the process in creating a product, that involves creative or imaginative talent expressive of technical proficiency, beauty, emotional power, or conceptual ideas

[Muirium]

I wish more people could see and try out the typing on your keyboard.

Well, the asking price might have something to do with that.

Remember you’re dealing with a world where a $200 Topre is cause for handwringing and jihad. Been there myself. Well, the first part.

A higher price certainly allows high end kit to be created, but at the inevitable cost of fewer people ever considering, let alone buying it. I can’t justify that expense, and don’t fancy selling my beamspring to find out.

[lispnick]

The new manufacturing technique produces letters with insanely sharp edges. I have bought a small digital microscope to take close-up pictures. Here is a comparison of the ESCAPE keys.

Keymacs:



Symbolics PN/364000:



As you can see, the font is a bit different. As I wrote in the initial post, I have been somewhat inspired by the IBM 5251 font.

[lispnick]

[inozenz]

every time i see your name as the last one to post on this thread, i get goosebumps. love your work!

[lispnick]

every time i see your name as the last one to post on this thread, i get goosebumps. love your work!

Thanks! More pictures to come, … I hope to make some nice closeup photos during the weekend.

[engr]

This is the best sounding Alps keyboard I have ever seen/heard, and from what I am understanding, the sound is mostly due to the thick polyurethane keycaps. If you ever decide to make a version of this keyboard in a traditional layout, or if the standalone ANSI keyset works out, I will buy it in a heartbeat.

[Muirium]

Yeah, I need those caps. <<fends off wallet fairy>>

[darkcruix]

This is the best sounding Alps keyboard I have ever seen/heard, and from what I am understanding, the sound is mostly due to the thick polyurethane keycaps. If you ever decide to make a version of this keyboard in a traditional layout, or if the standalone ANSI keyset works out, I will buy it in a heartbeat.

I have to agree with you. Definitely the best sounding Alps keyboard, if not the best sounding keyboard in my collection. If all goes well I will bring mine with me to the NY mechanical keyboard meetup https://nyckeyboardmeetup.com/. A keyboard as many people as possible should try. I know, it is not an impulse purchase, but worth every cent I spent.
I am so used to the layout now, that I have a hard time switching ...

[lispnick]

Some more details I have promised. This is a detail of the modifier keys on the left-hand side:



The HYPER and SUPER modifiers are done with a condensed form of my font. It takes roughly 80% of the standard letter space. Here is a close-up photo (from the right-hand side of the keyboard):



I have made the LOCAL key in black. That was a dilema because on the old-style Symbolics keyboard, the letters are actually white. In contrast, the new-style Symbolics keyboard has the letters red-on-grey, which suggest that LOCAL actually is kind of a modifier key. I got this info from a person who knows much more on the role of the key:

Local is not typically read by the computer, rather it tells a microcontroller in the console / monitor "hey a command is coming for you and not the host CPU."

For instance, Local-C-<number> sets the console's contrast. Local+B and D brighten and dim the video. Local + L turns up the audio. These commands are executed locally on the console's MCU and work even if both the Lisp CPU and front end processor on the host are faulted or completely disconnected. I cannot recall if the host can even read these events at all.

How cool is that, … deliciously LISPish. Anyway, the conclusion is, it should definitely be black. I personally use the key as a momentary layer switch.



Modifiers on the right-hand side:



Notice the tiny BACK SPACE which actually is not a backspace. On Symbolics systems (Genera), it just moves the cursor back one space non-destructively. So, in TKL terms, it is just a weirdly labeled arrow left. The true ``back space'' is the mighty RUBOUT key. Speaking of which, I have made two variants:



The RUB OUT version appeared on the old-style Symbolics keyboard, RUBOUT on the newer one. I am not yet sure which one I like more. Also, I have noticed that the term probably has some connotations.

[depletedvespene]

Some more details I have promised. This is a detail of the modifier keys on the left-hand side:



The HYPER and SUPER modifiers are done with a condensed form of my font. It takes roughly 80% of the standard letter space. Here is a close-up photo (from the right-hand side of the keyboard):

These look GREAT. To the point that perhaps the META key should be done in the same font, for "1U mods consistency".

I continue to be impressed by your work.

[depletedvespene]

……


The RUB OUT version appeared on the old-style Symbolics keyboard, RUBOUT on the newer one. I am not yet sure which one I like more. Also, I have noticed that the term probably has some connotations.

I suspect the newer style went for the single word variant to help shoo away said connotations.

[lispnick]

The HYPER and SUPER modifiers are done with a condensed form of my font. It takes roughly 80% of the standard letter space. Here is a close-up photo (from the right-hand side of the keyboard):

These look GREAT. To the point that perhaps the META key should be done in the same font, for "1U mods consistency".

True, but look at the old-style Symbolics close-up:

[depletedvespene]

The HYPER and SUPER modifiers are done with a condensed form of my font. It takes roughly 80% of the standard letter space. Here is a close-up photo (from the right-hand side of the keyboard):

These look GREAT. To the point that perhaps the META key should be done in the same font, for "1U mods consistency".

True, but look at the old-style Symbolics close-up:
…

Indeed. But yours looks better, IMHO.

[MathematicalJ]

Pornographic!

A lot of lettering is done not with a digital font but with engraving machines. The George Gorton Machine Company dominated the engraving space for decades, and consequently their flagship typeface is freakin' everywhere. Here's what it looks like: http://luc.devroye.org/fonts-80708.html.

Gorton Digital is one person's attempt at creating a digital version of it. I use it all the time.

MilSpec 33558 follows a similar narrative. It was (is?) the required font for military cockpit instrumentation. A random person on the internet says another widely used typeface (outside of the military) is called Spartan, "Mergenthaler Linotype’s unlicensed version of Futura, copied weight by weight from Bauer. It was produced in 1939. There is no free download. The nearest to the RAF 851ATH style of lettering is Helvetica Medium Condensed." But I'm straying from the topic now.

[darkcruix]

Since yesterday I have the pleasure to see the result live and in person. If you aren't blown away by the pictures, you will be when you ever type on it or see it in person.
By the way - I will bring it with me to the NYC meetup on April 1st, so everybody who will be there can try it out...

IMG_3954.jpeg (2.44 MiB) Viewed 46593 times

[lispnick]

Here is a typing demo on SKCL greens in a decent condition:

[lispnick]

My first typing demo that contains screen recording in an Emacs session. It shows a way to unleash the full potential of your keyboard:

[darkcruix]

Yesterday, I received the below keyboard (green linear alps in combination with blue clicky alps). The layout is very unique to my workflow and I am more than thankful for the amount of work and dedication keymacs has put into it.
The quality of the keyboard is extraordinary. The sound is mind blowing and the key feel is on another level. All in all - something very special.

IMG_4896.JPG (1.35 MiB) Viewed 46027 times

[guidemetothelight]

I am more than thankful for the amount of work and dedication keymacs has put into it.
The quality of the keyboard is extraordinary. The sound is mind blowing and the key feel is on another level. All in all - something very special.

Every post in this thread makes me a bit envious. True works of art, every single board. I can only imagine the amount of work and attention to detail that went into this. Never thought about the fact that since its all handbuilt, you could request special layouts / customization.
If there ever is a way of getting a keymacs board in ISO (and my 23 year old self having the money for it somehow) I´d jump on that asap. But until that day, one may dream

[lispnick]

I am more than thankful for the amount of work and dedication keymacs has put into it.
The quality of the keyboard is extraordinary. The sound is mind blowing and the key feel is on another level. All in all - something very special.

Every post in this thread makes me a bit envious. True works of art, every single board. I can only imagine the amount of work and attention to detail that went into this. Never thought about the fact that since its all handbuilt, you could request special layouts / customization.

Yep, not 100% customizable yet but I am definitely going in this direction. The biggest obstacle at this point is the size of all the models. I have everything designed in Fusion 360, from the keycap profile, the font, the case to the manufacturing models (and CAM) and the model becomes so big that the software is very unresponsive. Switching from a model environment to CAM takes about 5 minutes (on my Core i5, 16 GB RAM), adding a single constraint to a sketch is about 1 minute. So a lot of work that went into the keyboard was just wasted on waiting for the next dialog to pop up. In spare time I work on my own little CAM system for making the legends that would probably solve this issue and give me more flexibility.

If there ever is a way of getting a keymacs board in ISO (and my 23 year old self having the money for it somehow) I´d jump on that asap. But until that day, one may dream

That too may happen. At this moment I register 2 folks seriously interested in the ISO enter (including you).

[TNT]

That too may happen. At this moment I register 2 folks seriously interested in the ISO enter (including you).

I would like to join in on that ISO version. And darkcruix's board is simply mouthwatering

[Muirium]

I have everything designed in Fusion 360, from the keycap profile, the font, the case to the manufacturing models (and CAM) and the model becomes so big that the software is very unresponsive. Switching from a model environment to CAM takes about 5 minutes (on my Core i5, 16 GB RAM), adding a single constraint to a sketch is about 1 minute. So a lot of work that went into the keyboard was just wasted on waiting for the next dialog to pop up.

Eep! Sounds utterly maddening. Surely there’s some way to work in draft mode so that the full details are hidden while moving things around? A long “render” seems unnecessary for every tweak. But then I don’t know 360.

[lispnick]

I have everything designed in Fusion 360, from the keycap profile, the font, the case to the manufacturing models (and CAM) and the model becomes so big that the software is very unresponsive. Switching from a model environment to CAM takes about 5 minutes (on my Core i5, 16 GB RAM), adding a single constraint to a sketch is about 1 minute. So a lot of work that went into the keyboard was just wasted on waiting for the next dialog to pop up.

Eep! Sounds utterly maddening. Surely there’s some way to work in draft mode so that the full details are hidden while moving things around? A long “render” seems unnecessary for every tweak. But then I don’t know 360.

I am already on the lowest possible details, everything turned off. It is just that a small change in one detail that appears early in the timeline forces recomputation of the entire design & manufacturing model and it is by nature a single-threaded process. One thing that contributes to the speed is that I use the Mac OS version which does not seem to be Autodesk's priority (and it makes sense—Fusion 360's main competition SolidWorks is a Windows-only software). Maybe it is time to purchase one of those gaming PCs with plenty of RAM and RTX 4090.

[lispnick]

Ok, so this is how I imagine a Symbolics UK/ISO layout (modified/new keys highlighted in green):



The kle raw data is attached in case anyone wants to be creative.

[Muirium]

Maybe it is time to purchase one of those gaming PCs with plenty of RAM and RTX 4090.

Do they accelerate the Windows version on the GPU? Single threaded sounds like they don’t, surely, on the Mac version you’re using.

I can vouch for just how astonishingly faster the M series Macs are over the Intel days. Even running the Intel version of the app in emulation will be significantly faster, if they’re so lazy they haven’t even recompiled. But if Autodesk actually has their Shift together over on Windows, maybe that’s the way to go. Those Nvidia graphics cards are the PC’s remaining advantage over the all conquering CPU power of Apple Silicon Macs.

[lispnick]

Maybe it is time to purchase one of those gaming PCs with plenty of RAM and RTX 4090.

Do they accelerate the Windows version on the GPU? Single threaded sounds like they don’t, surely, on the Mac version you’re using.

I can vouch for just how astonishingly faster the M series Macs are over the Intel days. Even running the Intel version of the app in emulation will be significantly faster, if they’re so lazy they haven’t even recompiled. But if Autodesk actually has their Shift together over on Windows, maybe that’s the way to go. Those Nvidia graphics cards are the PC’s remaining advantage over the all conquering CPU power of Apple Silicon Macs.

The current version still runs in Rosetta 2. There are mixed experiences with that. Some folks claim it is much faster than on the icores while others claim the opposite. Autodesk just released AutoCAD as a native application and the Fusion should come next. I will wait for the benchmarks and see how it performs on a Mac Studio.

[Muirium]

If it is so single threaded, as I strongly suspect it is: any M2 will do. The studio has a lot more cores, but they aren’t faster. The entire M2 line is however faster than the whole M1 family, for single thread performance.

Rosetta 2 (like its mid 2000s PowerPC to Intel ancestor) is much faster than you might think. It translates the Intel binaries only once. Every subsequent run: you are running native. Universal binaries are still preferred, as the compiler can optimise them more thoroughly, but as a user you really do not often notice if software is Intel or truly native.

[mrprofessor]

I have everything designed in Fusion 360, from the keycap profile, the font, the case to the manufacturing models (and CAM) and the model becomes so big that the software is very unresponsive.

Shame, You can’t do it in Emacs, yet.

[lispnick]

I have everything designed in Fusion 360, from the keycap profile, the font, the case to the manufacturing models (and CAM) and the model becomes so big that the software is very unresponsive.

Shame, You can’t do it in Emacs, yet.

Heresy! Emacs can do all that, it is simply just a matter of finding the right key combination!